2000 H3-45 Engine & Transmission inspection needed in Dayton Ohio prior to purchase

[Sqaudleader]

Hello everyone!

I've got a 2000 H3 under contract in Dayton Ohio and wondered if anyone here can recommend a good mechanic I can trust to check over the engine and transmission on this coach. I've driven it, but don't have enough experience with Prevost to know recognize if anything is amiss. Google maps reviews is saying Wiers Fleet Service in Cincinnati is good and in Dayton, the highest reviews seem to be The Service Company, which is closer.

This is an old coach that's going to need a lot of attention, which I'm looking forward to giving it. I had an entry level diesel push (Holiday Rambler Endeavor) for about 7 years when my six kids were young and we enjoyed it. When they got to be teenagers, we stopped using it as much and I sold it about 12 years ago. Now all my kids are in their 20's and having their own children, and want me to buy a coach and do some family trips. I work all the time and this is a good opportunity to find a way to have a shared activity with them. I always enjoyed going down to the Keys with them and to the moutains, so this should be fun, I know it's going to take some work and money to zero out this coach.

Just to make it better, the single HWH hydraulic slide has jammed on the coach, but that's going to be another story to be continued if the coach passes the engine and transmission inspection and I take it home. Marathon was the converter and installed the slide. I know the hydraulic slides were abandoned pretty early in favor of electric slides. I'm buying it "as is", subject to the inspection on the drive train. Hopefully I got enough discount for the broken slide to cover what it might coast to fix it when I get the coach home.

I'm looking forward to learning from these forums and the members on how to take proper care of this complicated piece of machinery.

Thanks in advance for any advice any of you might have!

[Ck2hans]

When you say the HWH slide has jammed, what do you mean? Does the pump run but there is no movement? Or is there no pump running?
Spent a bit of time working on my HWH slides and learned more than I wanted to. LOL
Chuck

[RichardE]

Like Chuck said, I spent 10 years working with the same slides in a Newell I owned. I learned a lot more than I really wanted to. In addition to his questions.

You have to turn a key on the activation panel to move the slide. Then there is a 15 to 30 second delay to allow the air seal to deflate. Does the light on the panel come on? If yes, do you hear the pump come on when you activate the switch? If yes, do the locking pins on top of the slide retract? IF yes, does the pump grunt like it’s under load?

Answering those questions in order will help us help you on getting the room moving.

[Sqaudleader]

Guys I can't thank you enough for being willing to share your experience and knowledge.

I saw this coach for the first time a few days ago when I stopped into the dealership on the way back to Virginia. The coach is in a building and the Dealer brought in the single slide, and we took the coach on a 20 minute test drive. When we got back he couldn't get the slide to go back out. We noticed the second yellow light on the wall to the right of the control panel, that had been on during the test ride. The second yellow light is identical to the first yellow light on the control panel, but the second yellow light is mounted on the wall about seven inches to the right of the control panel that has the key, rocker switch, red, and first yellow light. Also during the test ride I noticed the rubber bladder hadn't inflated because I could see an inch of light by both upper corners of the slide, and less light down each side of the slide. When he couldn't get the slide in, the dealer called the owner and the owner said the dealer should have kept the rocker switch depressed until all the lights were off, including the second yellow light. That didn't happen and the second yellow light was on the whole time and didn't turn off even when we got back. I also saw a light on the coach dash that might have said "low air" I can't remember exactly, so I might be wrong about the exact wording. The owner said that indicated the slide wasn't properly deployed. We struck our deal on Friday and I told him I was coming back out to look at things more carefully. I drove back to Ohio last night to beat the snow that came in this morning, and will be at the dealership tomorrow (Monday) at 10 when they open. I'll then be able to give any updates you guys need.

The Dealer and his helper worked for over an hour trying to get the slide back in after the test ride. They tried turning off the key to the slide control panel to reset it, tried turning off the coach, then restarting it to reset it. The owner said that he always did everything to do with taking the slide out or in with the coach motor running. The dealers helper checked fluid level and solenoids and said everything was fine and power was going to the solenoids. The dealer tried running the slide out and also back in. When he did that the big pump next to the coach engine did run, but the slide never moved at all once we got back from the test ride. Also I noticed the bottom corner of the slide closest to the front of the bus was further out from the coach sidewall skin than the bottom corner closest to the back of the bus. The rear corner was slightly inset from the outside skin of the coach and the front corner was slightly out from the skin of the coach, I'd estimate the difference between the two corners at a half inch or a little more.

The Dealer has a theory that when he brought the slide in prior to the test ride that maybe the throws toward the back of the bus went into their holes but that maybe the front throws didn't go in their holes, but I know he certainly didn't inflate the bladder. He thinks the slide may be in a bind, since the slide is slightly crooked as described. The Dealers helper also fiddled with wires in the ceiling area of the basement bay in the center of the slide, where's there's a large somewhat flat junction box mounted on the ceiling with lots of wires coming out. The owner was on the phone trying to guide the helper and the owner was concerned maybe the ground wire was bad. I'm wondering if what I'm really buying is a non-slide coach with the upside that maybe it can be fixed and used. Of course you can't know, but I'm wondering if it would damage the engaged throws if I brought the coach back the 10 hour drive to Virginia to fix the slide back in Virginia? I don't know if one side of throws is engaged, and if other side isn't, could the vibration of the ride home bend the locking pins?

Then there's the issue of sealing around the slide on the way home. I was wondering if we pushed foam insulation into the crack around the slide, if that would keep water from coming in around the slide if it rained.

I negotiated the coach price to (150k) to buy the coach "as is" but subject to inspection. I can walk from the deal if things are too bad. From looking at everything for sale for the last couple of months, it appears to me the least expensive slide H3 units are around 230k, maybe you can correct if I'm wrong on that. The current owner has gotten hurt pretty bad on this slide and has spent 28k on it, and yet after all that money, here he is selling the unit, and the slide fails again on the test ride. I think he just wants to stop the bleeding and get out, so he took my offer.

If I proceed with this purchase, I'm taking a pretty big gamble, but then again, didn't all of us when we decided to adopt one of these huge complicated beasts. The tires are good and it's had the 365 tire upgrade to the front and tag axle. The bags could be bad, the shocks could be bad, the bushings in the front end could be bad, the spindles and bearings could be bad, and the brakes could be bad and that's just what comes to mind. As we all know every one of those items are 5k and north.

I know a strong argument can be made that a coach that is well maintained, even at 230k, could be less expensive than this coach if I hit the lottery and win all those problems, and that's assuming the mechanic can really tell if the engine and transmission are sound and are not going to fail in the foreseeable future. My thought process here is I definitely want an H3, that's just my preference. I like the layout and the way this coach looks, and I don't think any other coach brand has the panoramic wall of glass views Prevost coaches do, which is what drives me to Prevost. I love the drive through the Keys, any coastal area really and this thing is a glass observation tower. I'm hoping the zeroing out of things that need to be fixed (like the slide) will be less than 80k and I can do critical items that affect safety now and work non-critical items in over a year or two. The more I think about it, I should have the shop do a wheels-off inspection and check the shocks, brakes, spindles, and bearings to see what I'm up against in all those areas. I'm going to need to know if any of those systems need replacement now, especially since I've also got to have the AquaHot and generator working to keep the coach from freezing.

Here's the details of the terrible story this slide has been for the current owner. He's only owned the coach two years, and a year and a half ago the slide stopped working. He took it to a shop to fix it. They told him they "rebuilt" his slide and charged him $28,726, of which, $20,625 is labor (125 hours @ $165 per hour) for the slide and $3,300 in labor to fix the HWH air level system for leveling at campsites, which it seems they think kept the slide from working. The parts were three HWH cylinders for $2,428, two Equilizers (not sure those are) for $1,378 and misc parts at $500. The owner said he was told and sent pictures of the steel locking pins having shattered into hundreds of pieces laying in the bottom of the slide. I don't know, maybe it shattered or maybe it just rubbed off shavings, I can't say. The floor is wood and the flat floor panel that rises up jiggles a little when you try to move it with your foot. In my mind rebuilding a slide is taking it all apart and reinforcing or replacing structural elements, but it doesn't "look" like they did that to me in the field. I starting to think "rebuilding" meant going after the locking pin mechanisms, not tearing apart the slide, although maybe you have to tear the slide apart to get to the locking pin cylinders? I have not idea, maybe y'all got a better picture in your head of that than me. I'm thinking if the pins were bad, maybe they had to go after them and I'm wondering if the cylinders are for the locking pins or to move the slide in and out. Maybe $28,000 is reasonable for that? What do ya'll think? I usually figure in most jobs (I manage commercial real estate) the parts or materials are usually half the cost, and the other half is usually labor. It's not a rule, but I see it all the time in my work, so less than $5,000 in parts and $24,000 in labor seems off to me.

When I buy the old buildings I'm trying to bring back to life, I usually see opportunity when there's a condition that makes things unclear. Usually, not always, more risk, equals more opportunity. I"m thinking if things aren't too bad, I'm in a slide coach I like for as little as 180k (there's got to be at least 30k in repairs needed would be my guess). I have no idea if it's even a thing, but I'm even wondering if I went completely analog and made each step of the slide process separate, like a switch to inflate or deflate the bladder, a switch to engage or disengage the locking pins, and a switch to take the slide in or out, that this slide problem could be beaten. There's no question in my mind that just like you guys, to beat this problem, I'm going to have know all there is to know about this system. This is the reason I'm kind of glad the coach only has one slide because I've got to have it at least the saloon slide because I have six kids and they may be bunking in the living room. I could see how just a couple might go with no slide. This slide is an achilles heel of this coach, the only way to feel like you could count on. this coach is to completely understand the slide mechanism and how to fix it.

I can do simple things like assemble systems and I have a 20 year old son who is somewhat mechanical that works for me, and I can shop for good tradespeople and usually tell if what they say they want to do makes some kind of sense. I can follow directions and understand how a system works, so it makes me think with some help from knowledgeable people like on here, that we could figure out what's wrong and either do it ourselves or at least have cluesl for the mechanic so he doesn't have to start from scratch. I've got a funny feeling the present owner paid for a very expensive education of the techs that were supposed to know already how to fix his slide.

Sorry for this long post, I'm stuck in this hotel room waiting to go to the coach tomorrow and I've had too much coffee, not enough sleep, and have been obsessing over the inspection steps I should engage in to try not to walk into an ambush. To keep from going crazy, in the end, you just have to tell yourself that no matter happens, the world isn't going to stop spinning. If I get too in the weeds I have to step back and appreciate that.

I worry about the engine and transmission the most. Do you guys have much faith in a good shop being able to tell if those systems are sound?

Thanks again for y'all being willing to help! l'll owe y'all a favor big time!

[RichardE]

The owner threw a lot of money to someone who did not know what they were doing. And he paid dearly for it.

Plan on taking the coach to Moscow IA, and let HWH sort it out. Their call in help is hard to work with, but if you will get the coach to them it will get fixed.

The issue now is the first shop did who knows what with regard to how it is supposed to be. And now the dealer has messed with it even more.

I would bet a lot of money that the slide is not physically jammed. Why? I have seen first hand how powerful the hydraulic system is on the HWH slides and what it will destroy going in and out. This is an electrical/limit switch problem in my opinion. The HWH brain follows a very specific algorithm. On slide out, the key is turned, a timer starts for about 15 to 20 seconds, the pins retract and the pin limit switches must tell the brain the pins are retracted, only then will the solenoids open to extend the slide. It is counterintuitive, but both the extend and retract solenoids open in extend mode. The room extends, the outer limit switch makes, and the pins lock again.

On retract, key on, seal deflates for 15 seconds, pins retract, pin switches make, floor drops, retract solenoid opens, room stops when in limit switch makes, pins extend, pump turns off.

You can stand on a stool, look over the slide with a flashlight to see if the pins are engaged. Even if they are not, the slide will not move outward while driving. HWH puts a locking hydraulic check valve in the cylinders to prevent that. You can stuff the foam sealer used for caulking, but I would just put tape on the seam, and plan on using some 3M adhesive remover to clean off the residue.

While you are all wound up, google how to read the codes on the Detroit and the Allison by blinking the lights.

Your ultimate question, can it be fixed? Yes. Can you fix it yourself. Possibly, if you will download the HWH documentation, take the time to study the schematics, and approach the troubleshooting methodically with a voltmeter.

[Sqaudleader]

Thanks Richard, that makes me feel better and the HWH tip is a game changer. I didn't know HWH had a repair facility and after reading some of the Google reviews of it, they are great at solving slide problems. If I go ahead with this purchase, that'll be where I head with the coach when I leave Ohio, Moscow is about an eight hour drive west of here. I picked a really bad week to mess with this, it was 10 degrees this morning and won't go over 20 degrees today, with that same forecast for the next 4 or 5 days. I'm going to have to make sure the coach can produce heat, to even take it 10 minutes from where it's being stored in a building, over to the diesel shop for inspections. It isn't winterized either.

By chance, do you have a tape in mind that's somewhat waterproof, that won't pull off the paint when removed. I've seen duct tape take off paint, so I'm wondering if maybe a fancy removable painters tape from Sherwin Williams might be needed. Better yet, maybe the weather will be fine for the eight hour drive to Moscow and I won't need the tape. Either way, the tip on HWH is worth its weight in gold to me, it's a huge bonus if I can get the slide fixed fast and it's reassuring that you think the slide will be fine for the drive in its present predicament. Thanks again for helping!!!

[Ck2hans]

I have HWH slides but do not have air seals. Having said that, I had a similar issue that took weeks of calling HWH then waiting for their response to get to the bottom of my problem. What I finally found out was HWH locking rams/pins have a magnet internally at the end of the shaft that activates a proximity switch when it’s fully retracted or fully extended. (See attached picture of my locking ram disassembled). When the ram is fully extended or retracted the magnet causes the (in or out) normally open proximity switch to close which tells the control board it is safe to activate the in/out room ram. When the room reaches its full in/out position a proximity switch is closed and tells the control board to activate the locking pins.

My slide motor would run but the slide would not move. What happened was the locking ram was retracting to far and the internal magnet was passing beyond the proximity switch not triggering it, there for not telling the control board to switch the valves to the room slide cylinders. After fighting to understand the system for over a month, I put a 1/8” shim on the stop for the ram which realigned the magnet and proximity switch. Allowing the system to now activate the room cylinders.
Long post to explain a possible simple solution, your locking pins may not be sensing the ram is locked/unlocked allowing the control board to move on to the next position (in/out).
The way to test the proximity switch’s is to test the continuity of each locking ram in the open and then closed position. Close the slide, remove the wire connectors on the locking rams and check the continuity on the in position then the out position (lock then unlocked positions). The wires on the extended end (locked position) of the ram should have continuity when open, the wires on the back of the ram should have continuity in the retracted (unlocked) position.
Once again, if the pins are not sensing the internal magnet in locked or unlocked position the control board will not allow the system to move forward in moving the slide in/out.

Chuck

[Fratto]

I am late to the party, but if you have 2 or 3 days, send in an oil sample from the engine and transmission for analysis. They can tell you alot about the condition.

I use Motorcheck Analysis and I belive that they can expedite testing.

[Sqaudleader]

Chuck and Mark thanks for the reply. Chuck that's great information and helps me understand the slide better. Mark you're right, we took oil samples from the engine and transmission yesterday (Wednesday) and have sent them off, should have the results by Monday. I've put in a request to HWH to discuss the slide issue with their service department to see if they can give me a rought idea of the cost of a new bladder seal on the slide and trying to fix the issue of the slide is currently jammed in the "in" position. Counting blessings since that's better than jammed "out".

It's been three very busy and depressing days. On Monday "The Service Company" their actual name, agreed to work me in for an inspection at 7am Tuesday morning. By the way, after my interaction with them, I would highly recommend them in Dayton Ohio for basic chassis service. Jared is the service manager he is extremely honest. It's not cheap at $200 an hour for the shop rate, but again, he's honeest, so at least you're getting something for your money. They are primarily a heavy commercial diesel chassis shop, so they're great at the engine, transmission, and chassis, like air bags, shocks, but Jared tells you right up front they don't see many buses, so front end and suspension work should be done by a bus shop.

So the Dealer was kind enough to let me stay in the coach on Monday night because it needed to be at The Service Company at 7am Tuesday. So I run the coach 30 miles up the interstate then back again, to put a hundred gallons of diesel onboard. It's about 10 degrees by the way. The coach was in a warehouse and I wanted to see if it could keep itself heated with just the bus air since the Wabusto hasn't been used in the last couple of years and I didn't have time to see if it was working. The Dealer felt idling all night was using bus air was safer since he was concerned the 10 degree weather might make the coach hard to start to get to the inspection. Using the bus air and and one toe kick electric heater and the bus felt chilly by midnight, also the engine temperture needle was all the way to the left at less than160 degrees, I got up, did some research and saw everyone said long idling (like all night) required the fast idle switch to be on, which then turned on taking my rps to just over 1000. Within an hour or two the engine temperture was over 170 and the coach was warm.

At 6:30 I had 130 psi on all the air gauges. I poped the brake and pulled out of the parking lot. Within a fews seconds I heard a scaping sound and I stopped the coach about 200 from the dealership. Thankfully this street has very little traffic because I put the hazards on and for the next 12 hours, that's where the coach sat. We didn't want to tow it and the damage and cost that might involve. Turned out there are air leaks going to the front axle air bags. Normally the air system overcomes the leaks and keeps the frame of the coach 12 inches off the ground. However, because some water froze in the air lines or a valve, it kept air from getting to the front bags and because of the air air leak, they had deflated all the way down by morning, leaving the frame 6 inches off the ground, which created the scraping noise. So the Dealer is out town, the Service company can't do anything because the coach is too low for them to get a jack under it, and he doesn't have a road crew available at the moment anyway. The only good news was I wasn't marooned, since my truck was 200 feet away. So after talking to everyone, again, I'm out there by myself, the dealer calls and tells me a trick he used one time in a similiar situation, he told if I went to Home Depot and got 6 mil poly (what they put under houses for vapor barrier) and wrapped the wholee bottom of the coach and all vents and exhausts, it would trap enough hot air under the coach to thaw the frozen air line.

So it's 10 degrees, there's a decent breeze, I'm approaching 70 years old, and it's so cold the frog tape I'm using to tape the poly to the coach hardly sticks, I don't handle cold very well anymore and that kind of work you can't wear gloves, and I end up having to take a break every 10 minutes to keep feeling in my hands, with all that said, by the time I got it finished at 6pm, the coach sat 30 minutes and lifted back to ride height. By that time, the dealer was back in town and we hustled the coach back in the warehouse to keep it from freezing again and get the inspection a day late. That was a good trick to unthaw the lines, but unless we towed it, that was the only idea we had.

So finally the coach goes in for it's inspection and I told them to change the air dryer and let any water out of the many air tanks under the coach, The tech said he would add a little antifreeze to the main tank to hopefully help any valves that might have a little water in them. It takes about four hours to do the inspection and the air work, and to also add 5 quarts of oil to the engine because, surprise (not really), there's oil leaking around the oil filter area, around the oil pan, and around the cover where all the pulley's come off the engine. The sight glass in the bus air compressor doesn't have any oil in the window, so maybe that's wrecked ($8,000 maybe), the front end suspension bushings are shot so if Prevost rebuilds that $15,000, the shocks are passable, the transmission oil looks nice and red though, the air bags passable, a few bushings at the shocks are splitting, the broken slide of course, and if you don't like checking your oil level daily, a $50,000 engine rebuild. So it turns out repair and maintenance on a Prevost are expensive, I'm kidding of course because we all know that in spades. All that is depressing and makes you want to forget buying the coach, it was also a little overwhelming walking along the pit under the coach and seeing just how complex everything is and some of the filters and tanks probably can't even be reached without a pit, lift, or some kind of homemade ramp or pit you might build by using the side of a hill like the Youtube channel Bus Grease Monkey built.

After my little tour under the bus yesterday, and seeing how high up in the chassis a lot of the components aree, like the air dryer, air lines, and air dryer are, I think it would be difficult to chase air leaks or even service the coach without a pit and preferably a lift for even better access. Maybe you could get it up on a home made ramp system, but it looks it would really be hard to me and probably only the skinny need apply for that job. It's not going to be something I can do. I think i'd find a shop with a lift that would let me tag along with the tech to make sure doesn't miss any zerks, flushes all the air tanks, and let me put my eyes on the bushings, air bags, shocks, and any oil leaks in the drive train, not to mention chasing air leaks, which can be very time consuming. To do this right will be a lot of work for me to be involved at that level.

So now I have my choices and some rough idea about cost. The coach cost is down to 150k, about 80k less than any slide H3 in the US that I've seen. Of course a 230k coach is going to be in better condition than this coach, This coach has all the chassis issues I've described and while it's a handsome coach, to keep its nice paint job (it's starting to fray a little) it's going to need new clear coat. The interior furniture is worn and some of the windows have frosted because their seal broke, and the bedroom window got smacked by a limb and has an impact site with cracks going out over the whole piece of glass, The glass work in the coach is probably about 5k would be my guess.

Those are all the negatives. The pluses are it's exactly the interior layout I want (opposing couches), the glass in the saloon and kitchen are how it want, un-obstructed windshield glass (no cabinets and a drop down TV) and most of all I love how high up the kitchen and saloon are above the pavement and how when you're sitting on the couces there's a truly architectural feel to how the steps wrap up to the top level and the stadium feeling that comes from looking over the seats and heads of the pilot and co-pilot out the huge front window. My mother, sister, ex-wife, all of them are interior designers, so I've been exposed to architectural detail and design my whole life and the feeling sitting on that sofa overlooking everything around the coach is nothing like any other coach and I've looked at them all. This coach has no cabinets above the windows, the windshield has no cabinets, just glass, at seven feet above the pavement, you're approaching the view from a two story building, I've been in real estate development and sales my whole life, and in the end, studies show, almost all purchases are completely emotion driven (how something makes us feel) and logics role in the decision is to rationalize whatever our emotional choice is. So after all that this little post (Ok, big post) clearly demonstrates I'm looking at buying this coach almost entirely based on how it feels sitting in the saloon, way up in the air, surrounded by all that glass. Whether the coach is parked on the street curb at Smather's Beach in Key West or parked on a beach in Texas, or riding down the 100 miles through the Keys, or the Coast Highway in California, or Skyline drive in the mountains of Virginia, I just don't think any coach can even compare to what my kids, and grandkids are going to see and experience in this coach. Ok, so I just sold myself an H3, maybe this one, maybe another one, that's the only real question here. I'm definitely my own worst enemy. In my 40's I had a similar choice, I'd made some pretty good money, and I could make even more money or take the time to spend more time with my family traveling. I bought the Endeavor and we took a whole lot of cruises while the kids were young. I always figured I could make more money, but I couldn't make more time. Time has proved to me at least, I made the right choice because life is memories and wealth is children. At my age I don't like overhead and buying this coach between the cost, the maintenance, and lifestyle changes it's going to demand (fuel, repairs, insurance, food for guests and campground costs) are going to be significant. I could buy another commercial building in my town for what this is going to cost, but I work all the time and this about the only think I can do that i still actually like, and that my kids like, so if I'm gone in ten years, I don't think I'm better off with another building if I could have swapped it for memories with my kids and grandkids.


Oh, I forgot to rationalize my emotional decision. That way I can sleep at night. Here goes. The coach's Detroit Diesel 12.7 liter engine is pre Engine Gas Recirculating (EGR), it's pre Diesel Particulate Filer (DPF) and it's pre DEF. Of all those is the nighmare of the DPF shutting down the engine and leaving me on the side of the road. The coach is also so old, I don't think there's going to be much if any personal property tax on it, which on new coach where I live could easily be $12,000 per year or more. Ok the most pragmatic argument in favor of the coach is that it's better to throw away 150k than 250k to 350k (the cost of an H3 with a slide that's newer or in better condition.

You guys feel feel to chime in on this and the value.

[Ck2hans]

Well the good news is you have already been stranded on the side of the road, so you got that out of the way.
Your purchase sounds similar to my story. You’re buying a fixer upper knowing it up front. As noted earlier, I have more $ in my coach than I would probably ever get out of it,BUT I know what I have now and look forward to many years more of enjoyment. I have looked back and reminisce about what if I would have paid more for a coach at a dealer that had been gone through. I think purchasing as I did compared to purchasing a dealer prep coach for more $, after 5 years of owning this coach I am in about the same place. Meaning what I have spent bringing my coach up to par is about equal to what I would have spent on a gone through coach from a dealer. The good and bad of that; if I had purchased a dealer coach I would have had less issues and less DNA (blood & sweat) in the coach BUT purchasing as I did I now have a in-depth understanding of my coach that helps me better understand preventative maintenance & and provides a level of comfort knowing if/when something needs attention while out on the road there is a good chance I can deal with it or at least provide direction to whoever is brought in to assist.

Chuck