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Thread: Time for house batteries need advice

  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills
    Posts
    4,652

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    No disrespect, but the primary factor for establishing your battery capacity is the wattage required over time and available space. The second factor is maximum total load the battery bank is expected to support.

    Your over time calculation has two subsets. Total wattage with no charging source, such as when dry camping. The other is loads in excess of what the charging source can supply. This would be when idling or idling at a rest stop.

    Batteries have a limit on how much current they can supply at once. This will establish your minimum bank capacity.

    My coach supports 2 roof airs and a host of other needs, like most other coaches with 2 Trace 4KW inverters. My setup uses 4 4D batteries, which is the smallest practical bank capacity for my coach's maximum load. We have dry camped using our AquaHot, no air conditioners, and typical house systems. Using a practice many if us former boaters use, we start the generator for about an hour or two in the morning to cook, make coffee, and top off the batteries. We do the same at dinnertime. With this routine, and our typical loads to include heating coach with our 3 zone Aquahot, our generator never was called upon. It's rare for us to dry camp. So, rarely would my batteries be subjected to this depth of discharge.

    As for Featherlight's lack of deducated generator start battery, I'm not really a fan. They do have the option to start from either house or chassis batteries. Without adding a battery, I personally would rely on my chassis batteries to start the generator eliminating any risk the house bank was too depleted to start the generator. Yes, I know the generator doesn't require much power to start. I'm not suggesting a change, but adding a generator battery would be easy. It would maintain its charge through a Balmar Duocharge device that would both limit its charge from the house bank and allow for a different charge protocol, if needed.

    Early on Featherlight coaches were the coaches of NASCAR. As such, they were built with the intention of supporting prolonged battery use.

    In confident some conversions were equipped with a huge complement of batteries simply driven by marketing fears and stated metric of what that bank capacity would afford a buyer. Take my last coach, a 98 Country Coach conversion with a bank that was equipped to hold 8 8D batteries and typically sold with 6 8D batteries. This was a 12V coach with 2 2500 watt inverters and no possibility of powering air conditioning. This was a dry camper's dream coach. It spent 3.5 days on a ferry with nothing running but the refrigerator. After that time the bank was still at 70% of capacity. While CC was installing 6 big batteries, Liberty's 12V coach had 3 batteries hidden out of sight.

    I have participated in the bank size reduction on several coaches with not a single owner disappointed in their decision.

    Some owners like to spend a lot if time off the grid and don't want the noise of a generator. These are great candidates for lithium battery banks and solar.

    The bottom line is your use should dictate your battery bank's capacity. If you don't the potential excess weight of an oversized bank or $1,200 per 24V battery equivalent, fill the manufacturer"s battery storage area.


    Gil and Durlene
    2003 H-3 Hoffman Conversion

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Edmond
    Posts
    280

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    Hello,

    Currently I have (NAPA 8000 Series Battery BCI No. 4D 1050 A) which cost $257.00. They are wet acid. With the lifeline AGMs what performance can I expect.

    Thanks

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    141

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    I just purchased directly from manufacturer, delivered on a pallet very quickly and very new date codes.
    took old batteries in for scrap, got 300 bucks back, to me a good deal.
    2000 Prevost Liberty H3-45 Hamden Edtion

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sanford
    Posts
    212

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    Gil, we had a conversation in which I explained the reasoning. Featherlite Coaches was the official coach of NASCAR all the way to the last coaches built in Florida. Not to mention many other motor sports groups as well as horse shows where there is limited to no power. The Cruise airs draw 15-17 amps versus your 12-14 amp roof airs. The Cruise airs are much less efficient than the roof airs and will run much longer. The audio/video circuit with sat receivers etc. will draw 8 a/c amps even with receivers and components turned off. The bay refrigerator and main refrigerator can draw a continuous 6-10 amps. Then take a customer who doesn't know better and runs the forward and aft indirect lights not realizing they will draw 12ac amps each and, well, when you do the math, the "average" customer needs the reserve battery capacity of 8 4d Lifelines to auto start the generator.

    As for starting the gen off the chasis battery...that rotary switch is there as an emergency start for gen in case the house batts are too low to start the gen. I was responsible for that switch being added. The previous coaches had a "batt boost" switch in the MDP that would not energize when house batts low. A Featherlite customer should NEVER have that switch set for chasis (or how it labeled "coach") as you cannot depend on the chasis batteries to even be charged after setting for a two week period. If the customer accidentally turns off the chasis 24v charger or the solid state marine charger fails, the chasis batteries will be dead in as little as two weeks due to circuit breakers 19-21 drawing power even with disconnects off since they are wired directly to the batteries. We have covered this before.

    As for adding a generator battery, that is an option. I'm not a fan of an additional battery when it is not necessary. The way the system is set up, it is a great tell-tale sign that the house batteries need addressed if the auto gen starts acting up. For a hands on guy like yourself, these types of alterations can make some sense. Featherlite made a coach for specific purposes and they are very good at it. I will agree, as we discussed, the person that goes from plug to plug or runs the generator when they get in the coach and never turns it off until they plug into shore power, I don't have a problem with a smaller bank.

    As for lithium, that is a whole different discussion. I have been around since the beginning of lithium installs in coaches and the results over time were well less than stellar. I realize times have changed and advancements have been made but I am not convinced as of yet. From my limited experience with them, they appear to like near perfect charge/discharge conditions and in our business, that can be a stretch for the "average" coach owner. Lifelines can take a lot of abuse.

    Something I learned the hard way..The customer that dry camps and runs NOTHING but the refrigerator and draws the batteries down very slowly with a very low amp draw discharges the bank so deeply that the gen can have a hard time starting! I have had this occur with only a couple customers that sleep with the windows open! I had one coach that owner that kept complaining the gen would not auto start. We would check it by unplugging coach and running a a/c and gen would start every time! I happened to pull in one morning to see the customer had arrived at the shop over night and I noticed the windows open! I was walking by the coach when I heard the gen make a "clunk" sound several times! His batteries were 3 and a half years old and still had the temp sensors connected.



    edit: Another nice feature is, if the coach is at an RV park, plugged in to 50a and the customer is running one a/c on each leg and someone pulls the plug or the breaker trips or whatever the power loss, the system will run the coach loads until it auto starts the gen. The inverter settings for auto start is usually set for 8 hours max run time for gen. If the customer happens to get tied up and doesn't return for a a few days or weeks the coach will be just fine. With fewer or inferior batteries, it will not go as many days. I have seen it too many times.
    Last edited by Donnie Myers; 01-13-2020 at 06:57 AM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills
    Posts
    4,652

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    AGM batteries have several benefits over Flooded Lead Acid. First, no maintenance. I can't imagine putting up with the level of effort it would take to do this with many house battery installs without using the overpriced remote watering kits.

    For some installations, FLA is not really an option. Some converters installed batteries on an angle, which you can't do with FLA. Although both battery chemistries require venting, many don't vent where they install AGM batteries. If there is any good news to this lack of ventilation it's that AGM batteries only vent when they have been overcharged and are at the point of failure.

    AGM batteries have lower internal resistance so they can absorb a huge amount of charge current leading to a faster full charge.

    AGM batteries have more discharge cycles. So they will often last longer.

    On the flipside, they are 2x the cost. They don't like heat anymore than FLA meaning in some environments they may not provide longer life.


    Gil and Durlene
    2003 H-3 Hoffman Conversion

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Jasper
    Posts
    3,775

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    Mdiguy, you bought Lifelines factory direct?

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills
    Posts
    4,652

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    I redesigned my DC power system. I had 4 8D batteries in my engine bay. I'm not a fan of installing $2500 batteries in the heat of the engine bay. I considered using the space behind the fender like Featherlight and Marathon. I dismissed this location for heat and the filthy environment. What I did was rework a bay that was dedicated to my 2 Trace inverters. This forced me to go from 8D batteries to 4D batteries, a slight decrease in total capacity.
    20200113_082715.jpg

    I don't fault converters being creative on where they install their batteries. There are only so many places they can use without impacting available storage or affecting weight distribution. I'm fortunate in that I can dedicate one of my partial bays and still have more than 2 full bays for personal use.

    Battery capacity is established by the converter, but an owner's actual use is the only measure that's critical. I'm not suggesting converters do anything different. They are challenged in producing a coach with a power system that supports most of their customers while being mindful of the space required by larger banks.


    Gil and Durlene
    2003 H-3 Hoffman Conversion

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    3,988

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    What is the best price anyone has seen for an 8D Deka?
    1990 Peterbuilt 377
    3406 B Caterpillar
    13 Speed Roadranger
    No Norgrens


    1 day on paper no machines

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills
    Posts
    4,652

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    Joe,

    Join this and get great battery prices at NAPA. Membership is free.

    https://aitaonline.com/


    Gil and Durlene
    2003 H-3 Hoffman Conversion

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    3,988

    Default

    U ever seen a 8D AGM for under 400 over there Gill?
    1990 Peterbuilt 377
    3406 B Caterpillar
    13 Speed Roadranger
    No Norgrens


    1 day on paper no machines

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