Lithium Ion Battery Rumors

[Jim Skiff]

Gary D forwarded this to me and Frank K. approved of us posting in the forum.
Thanks Gary & Frank.

PRESS RELEASE
August 2011 Frank Konigseder
Vice President
frank@libertycoach.com
800-332-9877
Liberty Coach


Battery Technology
Sorting out the Lithium Ion Battery Rumors
It has come to my attention that there is a lot of misinformation circulating regarding the Lithium Ion battery systems currently used in the Liberty Coach. I would like to refer to an article which was circulated when Liberty Coach first installed the Lithium Ion Iron Phosphate batteries:

"The Lithium-Ion system we are now using is a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery which makes it inherently safer and very stable compared to the Lithium Cobalt Oxide which is very volatile. You may hear from some people that these are very unsafe, have been recalled, explode, etc... it is also not efficient in our application and has a much shorter cycle life, so we are not using that type of Lithium-Ion battery. The batteries that explode and experience thermal run-away when damaged or overcharged are Lithium Cobalt Oxide. We are using Lithium Iron Phosphate technology.


The safety characteristics inherent to lithium iron phosphate technology result from:

• <LI style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; COLOR: #0000ff">The incorporation of phosphates as the cathode material. Phosphates are extremely stable in overcharge or short circuit conditions and have the ability to withstand high temperatures without decomposing. <LI style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; COLOR: #0000ff">When abuse does occur, phosphates are not prone to thermal runaway and will not burn. As a result, lithium iron phosphate technology possesses safety characteristics that are fundamentally superior to those of Lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials.
• Lithium iron phosphate technology does not contain any heavy metals and does not exhibit the "memory effect" of Nickel-Cadmium and Nickel-metal Hydride solutions. Lithium iron phosphate technology demonstrates excellent shelf life, long cycle life and is maintenance free.

The advantages of traditional Lithium-ion coupled with the safety features of phosphates, make lithium iron phosphate technology the Lithium-ion technology for the future. Our lithium iron phosphate Lithium-ion technology utilizes natural, phosphate-based material and offers the greatest combination of performance, safety, cost, reliability and environmental characteristics.
We have been assured by the manufacturer and have watched safety presentations and videos of them shooting the batteries and overcharging them, that these are safe."

After reading this article and a little effortless research, one will find that the leading Motor Yacht, Sailing Yacht, and Motor Home manufacturers globally are installing the Lithium Ion Iron Phosphate battery technology, and this type of battery technology is regularly flown on commercial aircraft. It is also noteworthy that Lithium Ion battery technology is so important and ground breaking that many companies are spending 100's of millions of dollars in Michigan and other states to build plants specifically for the manufacture of Lithium Ion batteries as part of alternative energy plans; please refer to the following links:

Building additional battery factories
New Michigan Battery Factory Plant

Since Liberty Coach has continually set the benchmark for technological advancements, it should come as no surprise that we have continually installed this technology since January 2010 and can report that the batteries should easily keep the systems alive for the documented 2000 cycles, which could easily be 10 years or more. This translates to a significant reduction of battery replacement.

The installation of the Lithium Ion Iron Phosphate technology has enabled Liberty Coach to reduce the weight of the coach as well as reducing the generator fuel consumption. This battery technology enables a full state of charge to be reached much faster than the traditional battery technology thus reducing the run time of the generator systems. As we all board the coach heading to a greener world, clearly Liberty Coach has already left the station with plenty of forward momentum and reserve capacity.

In conclusion, the most important element in the coach building process is customer safety. All of the technological advancements available mean nothing if safety is compromised. I can assure you that Liberty Coach continually ranks consumer safety as our number one priority.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Another converter, in a recent newsletter had an article on Lithium Iron batteries compared to AGM batteries. It is clear to me the article that compared the two types of batteries was a counterpoint to what Frank posted above.

Both converters are very important to POG, and it is clear to me they have a strong difference of opinion. I would hope both would feel free to have an ongoing discussion of the two types of batteries and their differences and benefits. I would hope the discussion can include why we as owners need this knowledge to make good decisions when it comes to buying a coach.

If not here on our forum, perhaps we can include this discussion on our round table session scheduled for Austin.

[Sawbonz]

Liberty isn't coming. Who would we ask, Jon?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If Liberty and Millennium are not coming then I guess we have to do our own research. I strongly suspect both the Millennium spin on Lithium Ion is correct in the context of what was said, and I believe Frank's explaination is equally correct. The problem that gets confusing for buyers is in making sure the concerns are addressed and that both are addressing the same concerns. This topic is not unlike other topics where we have explored and debated the merits of EC-1 coolant versus the standard diesel coolants or Transynd versus Dextron III or motor oil. All of these examples were discussions of new technology compared to a long term widely accepted technology. I can see the discussion of Lithium Ion versus AGM or Gel in our future.

I know my AGM batteries if I care for them properly are going to last five years, still be working well, but not to the extent they did when new. They are somewhat tolerant of a deep discharge or even a total discharge. They are not so happy if overcharged. I have no experience with Lithium Ion, but I have a lot of knowledge of Liberty and a great respect for the product they build. I am therefore pretty certain that whatever limitations or problems might be encountered with the Lithium Ion that the coach and its systems have been designed to prevent an owner from exceeding battery limits, and to make sure the life of the batteries is maximized. If Lithium Ion does perform as anticipated having batteries with a 10 year life is going to be very desirable. Having batteries that weigh a lot less than the 165 pound batteries we are dragging around may yield enough fuel savings to pay for them. Or maybe the economics just don't work out, but we cannot use AGM without exceeding weight limits. There are so many issues the debate is going to go on for quite a while.

As owners however we have a responsibility to learn about the technologies that are on our coaches so we are not part of a problem that compromises that which our converters have built. As to the Q&A at Austin, if the folks that are the experts are not going to be there we just have to see if Skiffer can get each to either contribute an article or can post in kind of an on-line debate.

One thing is for sure, if our coaches were all built using the same technologies and systems it would be pretty boring around here and we couldn't pick on the CC guys while they were taking shots at us Liberty guys.

[GDeen]

Gary Patterson showed me through a factory fresh 2012 Liberty H3 at Bristol Motor Speedway this past weekend. It had the new Volvo engine and Lithium batteries, and was a beautiful coach. Very nice interior.

[BenC]

While Lithium Ion batteries could work well on new builds and coaches equipped with inverters or automatic start systems that are engineered and programmed to operate with the batteries, PLEASE UNDERSTAND that these batteries are not a drop-in replacement in existing coaches with older inverter/chargers and autostarting systems engineered for Lead Acid batteries (whether liquid, AGM, or Gel-cell). The load droop for LI batteries is almost a horizontal line, whereas there is a definite drop-off correlating to battery state of charge with Lead-acids.
A coach engineered for the LI batteries would also have a smart module that measures current out of or into, not the voltage, of the bank, and sends this information to auto-start systems, and also to the inverter/charger(s) so that charging is done within the parameters of what these very different energy storage devices can handle.
Hope this helps if anyone was considering changing their existing coach batteries to LI. It can, of course be accomplished, but most likely not without changing the charging and generator autostart systems as well.