Suspension Creak

[Russell Coachworks]

FYI - In my experience I have found that on our fleet of Prevost coaches, we are replacing A-arm bushings ONLY, around 400,000 - 450,000 miles based upon the unit and it is always been noise related, not performance related. So, when it does its "creaking", we find that it is noticeable, not so much when driving but when people are coming in and out of the coach or in regards to driving, when you are in a turn at 50 - 60 mph on the interstate (slight lean to the left or right). In our experience at Russell Coach we have found when replacing the A-arm Bushings, a front end alignment is required. Parts, alignment and labor, we are spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $900 - $1,300. We put approximately 75,000 - 85,000 miles a year on each unit. Any questions, feel free to call Rob Russell directly at Russell Coach 865-525-3888

[ajducote]

Are you doing this work in house? If so, your cost seems to be VERY GOOD. If you are doing it in house, would you tackle this job on POG coaches? If you are sending it out to get done, could you share that information?

The reason I asked, I did some research on redoing the front end of my 1998 XLV and the cost seemed to be a lot higher then what you have said. Please tel me it can be done for $900 to $1300 !!!!

What about the ball joints? It seems that the rubber boot on the ones I have looked at are almost always torn. How do you deal with that, and ball joints in general?
With the miles you are running on your coaches, you are a great source for "REAL WORLD" data points on things like this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

Thanks

[Coloradobus]

Marathon once told us that especially in the "H"3-45 the upper A-Arm bushings are in a pinched position by design. Our 2002 XLII one slide Marathon creaked and moaned espiecially when in cold weather wioth only 18K miles on it. We were also told, even new coach shells they say creak and moan. Hey Truk, lets hear it for the solid front axles. Hip hip who, ray!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The King and I talked to Rob Russell today, specifically about the issue of "A" arm bushings. As you can see from his post the bushings do have a significantly longer life than has been reported here.

The costs he provided are the cost of new bushings, the labor to remove the old ones and reinstall new ones and the front end alignment that is necessary after reassembling the front suspension. Since Rob is "hands on" and reliability on his coaches is a mandate he can answer specific questions such as raised by Andre. I presume, but would want Rob to confirm that if there are additional associated repairs they are included in that range he has provided above. I know he wants to do maintenance and repairs on coaches other than his own so it might not be a bad idea to give him a call. He is not as much fun to talk to as his wife Wendy however. She really runs the place.

I think we in POG are lucky because we have such good sponsors such as Coach Worx and Russell Coach that are qualified to answer our questions and address issues and I would urge that POG members with specific issues contact these folks who bring a lot of experience to this forum. When they answer our questions as Rob Russell and Ben Cummings did the answers are not theoretical, but are based on actual experience.

[Denny]

I think that mileage and age must make a difference on the bushings that are being discussed. Let's face it, we will never put 75, 000 miles a year on our busses as Russell Coach does or any other transportation company. We will never see 400,000 miles on our busses when used as we do. There are too many incidents about bushing/A arm replacements on POG for it to be a fluke or a Prevost ripoff. When I had my bus at Prevost NJ, they tried to replace the lower ball joints since they were out of stock of the complete A arm. They could not remove them to replace. The covers had deteriated and water was getting in rusting everything. They could have been soaked in penetrating oil and pressed out eventually but it was less costly to replace the whole arm assembly than go thru this process. I had some bushing that came out in pieces when the arms were removed. The dog bones did not have any bushing in them in two places.

I was there to watch the techs work and saw what was bad and what needed to be replaced. All of this took place on a 10 year old bus with less than 100,000 miles on it. Many parts on our busses can wear out from use or from lack of use and on our coaches I feel it is from lack of use. This is a problem on IFS front ends rather than the straight axle suspension. Since there are a lot more bushing on the IFS than on the straight axle, we notice the problem more. Also, the IFS busess that are having this problem are hitting the 10 to 12 years old bracket. Does Russell Coach have any units that are this age with under 150,000 miles on them? I am not doubting or questioning what Rob said nor am I trying to reflect any negativism on him. His use of a bus is totally different than ours. We are Not comparing apples to apples when comparing ours to an over the road bus.

[GDeen]

Intuitively I agree completely Denny that age has to be part of the equation. 400k miles on one of Rob's buses is likely the same amount of time as one of ours takes to get to 60k-100k miles. All the bushings are wearable parts and I think deteriorate with time as well as use. No different for tires, hoses, belts etc. I too saw the upper A arm bushings that were going bad on mine and can hear the noise from them now. When I called and asked for clarification on replacement, Ryan at Prevost told me no hurry to replace if I can live with the noise (which isn't near as prevalent as the sway bar noise).

Likewise my lower A arm bushings are going to need replacement. The seal boot on both sides is torn, which means the friction surfaces will now corrode and fail. The seal boot is rubber, which as we know ages no matter whether it is used or not - in fact, less use can accelerate deterioration. The sway bar bushings as I said before were mostly completely gone. Again, no doubt they had failed and needed replacement.

What I don't know is when and if any of these components have been replaced before. That is the missing bit of information necessary to put a service time on the parts in my particular case. My bus now has 141k miles and is 10+ years old.

Also would like to offer my thanks to Rob and the other professionals who lend their experience to the group. Very much appreciated.

I think that mileage and age must make a difference on the bushings that are being discussed. Let's face it, we will never put 75, 000 miles a year on our busses as Russell Coach does or any other transportation company. We will never see 400,000 miles on our busses when used as we do. There are too many incidents about bushing/A arm replacements on POG for it to be a fluke or a Prevost ripoff. When I had my bus at Prevost NJ, they tried to replace the lower ball joints since they were out of stock of the complete A arm. They could not remove them to replace. The covers had deteriated and water was getting in rusting everything. They could have been soaked in penetrating oil and pressed out eventually but it was less costly to replace the whole arm assembly than go thru this process. I had some bushing that came out in pieces when the arms were removed. The dog bones did not have any bushing in them in two places.

I was there to watch the techs work and saw what was bad and what needed to be replaced. All of this took place on a 10 year old bus with less than 100,000 miles on it. Many parts on our busses can wear out from use or from lack of use and on our coaches I feel it is from lack of use. This is a problem on IFS front ends rather than the straight axle suspension. Since there are a lot more bushing on the IFS than on the straight axle, we notice the problem more. Also, the IFS busess that are having this problem are hitting the 10 to 12 years old bracket. Does Russell Coach have any units that are this age with under 150,000 miles on them? I am not doubting or questioning what Rob said nor am I trying to reflect any negativism on him. His use of a bus is totally different than ours. We are Not comparing apples to apples when comparing ours to an over the road bus.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Denny is correct about age. However if the posts on this thread are any indication some of the issues with the bushings are happening at reasonably young ages. I think the jury may be out on the possible reasons for this. When we talked ot Rob that was one of the concerns. Was a motorhome inherently different from an entertainer coach, with the focus on leveling. That was not the case because the Russell entertainer coaches all have leveling systems and they are levelled every night. We were concerned that the full range of motion, either all the way up or all the way down was a factor and apparently it is not.

Because of the various moving parts and how they must function, how they must be maintained, and how they can be damaged by lack of maintenance it does appear that lubrication, protection from the elements (such as a torn boot) and even a little ArmourAll sprayed on from time to time may contribute to longer life. I'm not making up the ArmourAll thing. That was Rob's suggestion. It's not in the Prevost shop manual.

I don't think any of us knows if the calendar, or steady use as opposed to occasional use, or a combination of both defines the life like we have been able to do with reasonable accuracy on things such as air bags. Whatever the factors are I think as a group the information should be posted so it can at some point be factored in to a preventive maintenance schedule.

[jack14r]

There are other things to consider such as front axle weight,the coaches that Russel has may not weigh nearly as much on the front as a double slide late model coach.Entertainer coaches have a 17,200 Lb front axle and we have a 18,000 LB front axle,are the parts(bushings,etc.) different,I would imagine they are but I don't have knowledge in this area.

[truk4u]

C-bus - Ya buddy, old is good!

[Steve Bennett]

We have seen problems with both the sway bar link bushings, and the a-arm bushings. As John indicated I think a lot of the problem is the leveling of the coach as it causes the coach suspension to remain in a significantly different position the ride height. We have replaced quite a few a-arm bushings that were very cracked and damaged on the outer edge. When it is removed the bushing was still in reasonably good shape in the area that supports the suspension. I think that they should be replaced when you hear creaking or have an alignment issue. The sway bar bushings are a different story. If you look at the bushings with the coach dropped in the front (sitting on the stops in the bags) the links are pulled causing a significant load on the bushing. Over time this will cause even the harder urethane bushings to fail quickly. Having said that, as indicated they are easy to replace, and very inexpensive. We have seen coaches that have been run many miles with the bushings missing (sway bar links) and it does not appear to do any damage to the components.