Changing Antifreeze

[gmcbuffalo]

I drained mine awhile back and filled 20 one gallon milk containers, a real hassle getting rid of it.

[BrianE]

Greg, In our area, Oil Can Henry's and Jiffy Lube stores will accept old coolant for a small fee.

[James]

I recently took the bus to Pacific Power Products in Coburg, Oregon at 08:00 am to have the coolant changed. I asked them to replace the old Power Cool IEG coolant with Power Cool Plus, the Detroit Diesel OAT extended life coolant (ELC), and a blank, non SCA, filter for the engine and to include an extra blank filter to carry as a spare. It was after 6 pm when I was notified that everything was completed and the bus was ready to go. Opening the engine door I noticed that they have replaced the coolant filter with the same one I had arrived with (part #23507545) which was an SCA filter for IEG coolant and they had also left the same filter in the coach for a spare. Since the day shift and my service liaison had left for the day I informed the swing shift manager of the problem. He brought a mechanic up who, even though the filter had SCA printed on the front, stated that it was a blank filter that was installed which had no SCA's. After going around and around with the tech and manager for several minutes I decided to return to the RV site at Marathon, less than a mile from Pacific Power, and fight the fight the next day.

When I returned the following morning and met with the service liaison he stated that he had already talked to the mechanics about my complaint and was convinced that the filter did not contain SCA's. I showed him the spare filter with the SCA label on the front as well as demonstrating that you could hear the SCA charge inside make a "thunk" sound when you shook the filter. He stated that the "thunk" sound was not the SCA charge but was an indication of when the filter needed changing in that if you didn't hear the sound you needed to change the filter. I asked him if he thought that was logical for someone to take the filter off and shake it to find out if it needed to be replaced and upon hearing the sound would reinstall it. He decided that that didn't make sense and went back to the techs and returned with an explanation that the sound was a float that would float up and shut off the coolant when the filter needed changing. We discussed why that version didn't make sense and I showed him the Detroit Diesel book on coolants and the fact that that filter was listed under the Power Cool IEG coolants and that it contained SCA's and that the book indicated that a "blank" filter should be installed with the Power Cool Plus coolant.

After much discussion Pacific Power agreed to drain and reinstall the coolant and filters at no charge but wanted to wait until the following week to do the work. I agreed and again showed up at 8 am the following week and turned the coach over to them. Around 11 am the service liaison stated that the everything was done and the coach was ready. I went out coach, checked that they had installed the correct filter but looking in the sight glass discovered that the coolant was low. I informed the service liaison of the problem and he sent the mechanic out with several additional gallons of Power Cool Plus concentrate. After he put two gallons in, without raising the level in the sight glass, I asked him if he was going to add any distilled water since the coolant was concentrated. He stated; no, you don't have to add any water with this coolant. Turns out he had replaced the coolant with 100% Power Cool Plus concentrate with no distilled water. I pointed out the directions on the Power Cool Plus container and asked him to drain part of the coolant and replace with distilled water. He discovered that they did not have distilled water so I drove to Wal-Mart, bought ten gals of distilled water and brought them back. After filling the tank with seven gallons it now indicated full.

I believe that this frustrating coolant change debacle was due to a lack of knowledge and training of the Coburg Pacific Power Products personnel about Power Cool Plus. I also believe that it is not restricted just to this one Detroit Diesel facility. Though the Power Cool Plus coolant has been out for some time the Detroit facilities that I have talked with, Pacific Power and Williams, are not very familiar with the product. Even the Detroit Customer Support Center, when I contacted them both by phone and email, did not know that you needed to install a blank filter with the Power Cool Plus coolant even though it is indicated in their Coolant Selections publication (DDC-SVC-BRO-0002). The email that I got back stated that I could "stick with" the part #23507545 SCA filter, which is contrary to their own Detroit Diesel publication.

I would recommend that if you decided to change to ELC either do it yourself or monitor the facility that is doing the work very carefully. Even though Pacific Power agreed to fix their mistake I would have preferred that it never occured.

[dale farley]

James, Sounds like a nightmare just to have your coolant changed. This is a significant part of the reason I do my own work. At least I know who to blame if it isn't done right. Your situation is another example of the importance of knowing what the shop should do before you leave your bus with them. Otherwise, you would be driving around with a horribly wrong mixture in your engine. Makes you wonder how many other buses the shop has done the same way? I'm glad you got yours straightened out even if it did take a week, two trips, and some arm twisting to get it accomplished.

[dale farley]

James, You will probably need to check the fluid level again once you drive a few miles. I thought I had mine topped off, but we made a short trip a couple days ago, and I still needed to add another gallon, so I now have added 19 gallons since my initial drain.

[HarborBus]

James, I was going to have my coolant changed last fall but decided against it and to further study the issue. One of the concerns I have is that if the old coolant isn't purged completely it ruins the new extended life coolant. Unlike the County Coaches, that have an Aqua Hot system and it's own dedicated coolant, the Marathon uses the Webasto that shares the coolant with the engine. Additionally I have heard that if air is not purged from the entire system the Webasto will not run. Did you check the operation of the Webasto after the work was completed? How did you insure that they drained out all the coolant from the heat exchangers in the bus? What is the part number on the correct filter? How many gallons were finally used? and finally what was the Quoted price to do the work and the final bill? I know it's allot of questions but....................

[James]

I'm not sure how many total gallons they replaced the first time but I was billed for 10 gals of coolant. The second time was 8 gal of coolant and I put 7 gal of distilled water in for a total of 15 gallons. I have driven a couple of hundred miles since then and the coolant seems to be staying stable.

Anticipating the second draining and replacement of coolant I did run the dash heat and the Webasto to circulate the fluid in case the heat exchangers were not drained. I also ran the Webasto and dash heat after the second drain and both seem to be working ok. When we get home to Alaska in a couple of weeks I plan on draining the system and doing it again to make sure I have the proper mixture as well as replacing the coolant in the generator with the ELC.

[travelite]

Drain a sample of the coolant and send it to a test lab for testing. This is the only way to test the extended life coolants. If the shop mixed the old with the new, the test lab should be able to detect it. Note that extended life coolants cannot be tested with test strips.

[Steve Bennett]

James, I can tell you that you did not experience an isolated incident. About 1 year ago I took my coach into the Detroit Diesel shop in Mira Loma (Valley Power Systems). I requested a drain and refill with Detroit Power Cool, and specifically had asked them if they had pre-mix otherwise I wanted to bring in distilled water. I was told that it indeed was pre-mix, I also asked for the filters to be changed with blanks. I was standing in front of the bus as I was watching the technician dump in the coolant (I should tell you the reason it was being changed was that Prevost did it 4 months before, and added 2 SCA filters with a fresh initial fill of Power Cool, and it tested very high in additives) I noticed he was using the same 1 gallon container that I used to top off the coolant. I asked if it was pre-mix, he indicated it was, I asked if I could see the container. he became agitated, and eventually agreed. I examined the container, and it was straight Power Cool that was supposed to be diluted 50%. I then went to the shop manager, and was told I did not know what I was talking about. We then pulled out the container, and I showed him the instructions. I asked if they had distilled water, they did not. I was now 5:00PM and they did not have time to get distilled water. I should add that I got there at 8:00AM, and had an appointment. I did not pull the bus into the stall until 4:00PM. We had to use tap water to get the proper dilution. I asked if the filters were blanks, they assured me they were. 2 weeks later I was under the bus, and looked at the coolant filters, they were SCA additive filters. I tested the coolant and the nitrite level was over 4,000. I have now drained and refilled the system twice myself, installed blank filters and used deionized water with the coolant. I have found the level of service at most shops to be of such poor quality that it is astounding. I wish we could get technicians to take the hippocratic oath (first do no harm)! As has been indicated in this forum, you really need to watch what is being done on your coach. I personally check everything that we have done on all of the coaches we sell, and am at the point of doing what we can in house. I can tell you some stories that you would not believe on what we have witnessed.

[phorner]

Steve,

Based on your personal experiences, as well as the ordeal that James has now endured, it should be obvious that it is imperative for owners to actively participate in any work performed on their bus. I try to be as attentive as possible whenever my bus is in a shop, not only to educate myself as to how things come apart and go back together, but also to provide critical information to the technician as may be required.

If you simply give 'em the keys and have them call you when they're "done" you are often taking a risk.