Why to have your top end looked at!

[travelite]

The short answer is to drain you crankcase oil, fill her up, and run the motor for 2 minutes at fast idle, then shut her down.

I suppose you could do all the above with a hot motor, but the DD manual actually specs doing it cold.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[garyde]

James, take a look at your Detroit Diesel Series-60 Users Manual. It's pretty clear on what should be done if you intend on storing your bus for up to 30 days, and what you should do if storing for longer than 30 days.

The short answer is to drain you crankcase oil, fill her up, and run the motor for 2 minutes at fast idle, then shut her down. This is good for 30 days. Beyound 30 DD has more extensive directions. IMHO, dumping the oil as described and adding a new set of oil filters should get you to 60 days. I wonder if it's the acids in the used oils along with inactivity which might be contributing to the pitting and scuffing some are seeing?

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

If this is the case, most of us are not doing it. Except for winterizing my boat, this procedure is rarely done by any of us.

[merle&louise]

James, don't run the bus without getting it to operating temperature before shut down, period!

If you must do something to minimize the risk of the premature wear Kevin experienced, assuming you don't already have it, switch your engine over to synthetic oil. It has several benefits over mineral oil and will possibly retard the drying of the oil from the moving parts during extended periods of non use.
It has been said about synthetic oil, that engines running with synthetic oil, have had failures in their oil supply and lost all their oil pressure and were still driven to safety only to have no ill effects when that problem was corrected and new/more was oil added.

Synthetic does cost more, but not prohibitively so and it has been proven to excel over regular mineral oil. With it you should also be able to extend your change intervals and bring it closer to the cost you now relate to an oil change.



JIM

I agree with the use of synthetic oil. I use Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic and have for years. I change my oil every 15,000 miles or 1 year whichever comes first. The oil is very expensive $25/gallon but it is worth it IMO. I also use it in my generator.

Just my .02

[James]

I don't see any mention of 30 days in the Series 60 manual I have. It only talks about changing the oil and filters after "extended storage" and it gives the example "over the winter" without specifying a specific number of days.

In another part of the manual it does recommend removing the batteries if storing it more than 30 days as well as draining the water pump.

I'd love to drive it once a week and get everything up to operating temperature but circumstances don't always allow that. And changing the oil and filters in an inside storage bay is frowned on by the storage facility management.

Too bad there's not another way to keep the top end lubricated. Synthetic oil may help.

[travelite]

From the Detroit Diesel's "EPA07 SERIES 60 ENGINE OPERATOR'S MANUAL", "DDC-SVC-MAN-0006 Copyright © 2009 DETROIT DIESEL CORPORATION".

My 2002 Operator's Manual says the same thing:


ENGINE STORAGE

When an engine is to be stored or removed from operation for a period of time, special precautions should be taken to protect the interior and exterior of the engine, transmission and other parts from rust accumulation and corrosion. The parts requiring attention and the recommended preparations are given below.


Preparing Engine for Storage

It will be necessary to remove all rust or corrosion completely from any exposed part before applying rust preventive compound. Therefore, it is recommended that the engine be processed for storage as soon as possible after removal from operation.

The engine should be stored in a building that is dry and can be heated during the winter months. Moisture-absorbing chemicals are available commercially for use when excessive dampness prevails in the storage area.

Temporary Storage (30 Days or Less)

To protect the engine for a temporary period of time (30 days or less), follow this procedure:

1. With the engine at ambient temperature and cool to the touch, drain engine crankcase oil into a suitable container. Dispose of the oil in an environmentally friendly manner, according to state and/or federal (EPA) recommendations.

2. Fill the crankcase to the proper level with the recommended viscosity and grade of oil.

3. Fill the fuel tank with the recommended grade of fuel oil. Operate the engine for two (2) minutes at 1200 rpm and no load. Do not drain the fuel system or the crankcase after this run.

4. Check the air cleaner and service it, if necessary.

5. If freezing weather is expected during the storage period, check the antifreeze/coolant for required freeze and inhibitor protection. Add antifreeze solution to the cooling system in accordance with Detroit Diesel's recommendations. Refer to How to Select Coolant in this guide.

NOTE:

If an antifreeze solution is not required during storage, flush the cooling system with a good soluble oil (3% – 5% by volume) rust inhibitor to prevent rusting of the outside diameter of the cylinder liners.

6. Clean the exterior of the engine (except electrical parts) with fuel oil and dry with compressed air.

7. Seal all engine openings. The material used must be waterproof, vaporproof and possess sufficient physical strength to resist puncture and damage from the expansion of entrapped air.

An engine prepared in this manner can be returned to service in a short time by removing the seals at the engine openings and by checking the engine coolant, fuel oil, lubricating oil nd transmission oil levels.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[James]

David,

Thanks, I found it. For some reason I stopped at the section on "Extended Storage" and didn't look any further.

The manual seems to assume an almost daily operation of the engine. From reading the Engine Storage section I should change the oil if we're staying at an RV park for a week.

It would be great to operate the bus daily or at least weekly but sometimes that's just not possible. Hopefully the Arizona air is dry enough to not cause damage during starting after leaving it for a month.

[travelite]

The manual seems to assume an almost daily operation of the engine. From reading the Engine Storage section I should change the oil if we're staying at an RV park for a week.

James,

I agree, it's no secret why over-the-road truckers get 1M miles out of their engines, while coach owners sometimes have to replace theirs with few miles on the clock.

Following the "30-day or less" storage section of the manual just isn't practical for us; unfortunately this may cause problems for some of our motors now and then. The best I can do is to dump the oil after a season of use and in preparation for storage; thereby, getting rid of the acid laden oil which may attack bearing surfaces. Then, while in storage, I drive the bus at least every 30 days, just long enough to get the oil up to temperature.

David Brady
'02 Blue Bird Wanderlodge LXi,
Series 60 Equipped,
Asheville, NC

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Clearly if we drive our coaches like entertainers or charter operators do we would not be having this thread. Kevin likely would not have had the problem, and we would all be unaware of the damage on ANY engine that has been dormant for an extended period.

Plane owners are very much aware that to maximize the life of an engine it needs to be operated often. The cost of a plane engine compared to a bus engine isn't even in the same ballpark but we still don't run down to the hangar every week of two and go for a flight just to oil up the engine.

But virtually all of us have let our buses sit for extended periods, and Kevein's post was the first time this issue has arisien in my almost 20 years of ownership. I am not saying the problem has never occurred before, but it is the first time it has gotten so much awareness.

I honestly do not think any of us can prevent this type of engine damage unless we run our buses regularly (not just idling in the garage, but getting it on the road and heat soaking it) and unless we have parts properly hardened. (Thanks Ken for pointing that out.)

There may have been a series of parts not properly hardened. Kevin may have been twice unlucky. Remember, DD had a series of engines with defective pistons and except for word of mouth nobody was notified thay had potential problems until their engine cratered. Why would DD step up to the plate on this issue, if in fact it is an issue. Especially if it only affect owners who do not put 80,000 miles a year on the engines?

I got enough to worry about, such as health care and the war in Afghanistan so I'm not going to worry about this and I am going to keep doing what I have been doing for maintenance.

[dale farley]

It always concerns me when I hear things like this, but after thinking about it for a while, I realize there's nothing I can do to ensure that I am never going to have a failure. We can't accurately predict such a failure, and it is easy to waste thousands trying to prevent it.

At the beginning of each year, I write on my calendar to change my house AC filter and run my bus the first day of each month. During this time, I run the bus at fast idle, raise/lower the suspension, start my generator and Webasto, then gradually turn on all house systems (AC's, refrigerator, etc.) I move the transmission through all the gears a couple times and apply the brakes a few times. I usually let things run for approximately 30 minutes, according to outside temperature.

I realize this is not a cure all, but I feel it is the best I can do on a consistent basis. When I have a failure, I know that I took reasonable preventive measures to minimize my problems. I am sometimes surprised that something doesn't work right this month that was working fine the last month. I always realize that I can't "hold a light" to Jon's maintenance schedule. I never polish my slack adjusters.

I am also surprised when I see I have completely overlooked something that needed attention (like the small hoses on the radiator reservoir). Unfortunately, that is just the way mechanical things are. They have an average "mean time between failure" and then they are gone.

[gmcbuffalo]

Does anyone see anything wrong with Dale's logic? What is the downside of just high idleing your engine for a period of time?
GregM