Coolant/Antifreeze

[flyu2there]

While changing out the three decayed hoses in my cooling system I lost some antifreeze, actually it went into a dirty bucket, some had rolled down the side of the engine....I needed 4 gallons of new. The Cummins Store was closed, I usually buy Fleetguard that meets DD Spec, but Joe Baggadonuts Heavy Truck Repair was open. I acquired the anti freeze from him and asked him some questions, his answers puzzled me so that I did some research and now I am even more confused.

There are basically two types, ethylene and propylene, the later being far less toxic to animals and humans. Ethylene glycol provides the best heat transfer and is the product used in heavy duty engines, and it never wears out. What does "wear out" are the additives in coolant. Extended life antifreeze only means that the additives last longer. Additionally, it is best to buy pre-mixed (50-50) antifreeze because it is mixed with de-ionized water. I have always mixed it and used distilled but evidently that is not a good answer; tap water with chlorine and high amounts of TDS (total dissolved solids, calcium and the like) is really a no no. Many of the lower priced antifreeze products are made from recycled or used antifreeze. Thats what my reading showed.

Back to Joe Baggadonuts. He said that all ethylene antifreeze is the same whether you buy it from Detroit Diesel or Wal-Mart. The additives are much the same in all of them; evidently there are several government agencies monitoring this and set the specification because it is considered toxic. Further the coolant filter (sounds like it contains a bunch of rocks in it when new) continually refurbishes the additives (SCA's) to prevent scaling and jelling. The biggest danger he stated is the running of too high concentration of ethylene.

So my question is, was Joe full of sierra hotel india tango or was he right...I dunno!

John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Maybe.

It has to meet the DD spec, and if it does it will say it. If it does not say it you can have potential problems of a serious nature due to cratering on the rear of the cylinder liners. The chemistry in our antifreeze protects the nitriding on the liners. The wrong chemistry also causes silicon dropout which ultimately plugs the radiator core causing the severe loss of heat transfer.

Extended life antifreeze (like normal DD spec antifreeze) does have a life, expressed as something like 6 years (instead of 2) or 750,000 miles (or some such high mileage rating). That was developed by Caterpillar and carries the spec EC-1. Never ever mix the two types of aniti freeze and if switching from one to the other the system needs to be flushed.

Brian did reseach on the anti-freezes we use and had a presenter at Spearfish do a mini seminar on it. The EC-1 spec antifreeze is so good I am going to use it at my next change. When using EC-1 you must use a blank cartridge in place of the one that replenishes SCAs.

[Orren Zook]

John,

I wouldn't use an 'automotive' antifreeze, primarily for the silicon levels of those products. You'll get the dropout that Jon mentions in an earlier post if you use those products. While you're at a HD parts facility pick up a few test strips to check/test the Ph of your antifreeze. Be sure that your coolant is within the prescribed Detroit Diesel specs. You can buy pint containers of SCA to bring the levels up to snuff and then keep them at that level with the additive included in your replacement filter.

Remember that 50% of all engine failures are directly related to cooling system problems.

[flyu2there]

I dumped in 4 gallons of Delo which, according to the container, is compatable with everything, including Detroit Spec, Navstar, etc and EC-1. I mixed it with distilled water and then started doing the research. Mistake 1, mixing with distilled water, now I am wondering about the EC-1. I don't spect that 4 gallons will hurt anything, I'll get a test strip and check.

John

[truk4u]

Brian did a great job on the green machine and I have the EC1 stuff. I now need some antifreeze and cannot find the Texaco Extended Life Concentrate, Cat - EC1. Texaco has Extended Life, but it's for auto's and light trucks.

Any thoughts on a source for this stuff?

[flyu2there]

Looks to me like there are only two antifreeze/coolant makers on the planet, at least the ones that produce ethylene and propylene based glycols. The biggest turns out to be Honeywell but the biggest in terms of heavy duty applications is Old World Industries. They both color code the same, green, pink, purple and orange. As I read it the green stuff has few, if any additives, the pink and purple are the heavy duty's with all of the SCA's and the orange is the extended life organic acid antifreeze.

Jon was correct regarding the mixing of the red orange with any other, seems it causes some big issues. Joe Baggadonuts was also right, they are really all the same save concentration and additives and dye. Detroit uses Detroit Power Cool 3000 as an additive as it has nitrites, course that is also made by Old World and marketed under their brand, Penray Power Cool 3000--same stuff. Detroit also authorizes 95% water and 5% power cool as a usable coolant if the weather is warm enough that one does not need freeze protection. I suspect one could use the green stuff with the powercool additive, except it would probably be brown stuff.

I found this site very helpful, as it kind of clears the whole question up...
http://www.freightlinerchassisowners...olant_info.htm

Suffice to say, three way test strips and a supply of power cool should keep everyone out of trouble.

John

[LarryB]

Thanks for the info John. When I bought my bus from Marathon a condition of the sale was a 100,000 service. the Company [MidLane]that does the contract servicing for Marathon put the Green stuff in after changing out the coolant.
If I read you correctly, I need to 'test' and maybe change out the coolant again?

[rahangman]

OR if you are really concerned (and aren't we all) about actual Coolant Contents, a small amount drawn per instructions from your system and sent to a testing facility for minute detail concentrations, etc. it can be done for about the same price $$$ as the test strips, giving a nice print out that of course needs interpretation, but, takes most of the guess work out of the whole process. Not quite as easy as test strips, but ...

[garyde]

My last Service before Oklahoma City, the Detroit Diesel /Allison Service center I go to recommended not using the extended life coolant because of potential electrolysis. He installed the two year coolant and recommended it be checked after one year.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I would be very interested in finding out where the DD/Allison folks got that information and where we could find it.

I admit to being a cynic, and really hate it when technical folks say things based on their gut feel rather than facts. According to what we learned in Spearfish the EC-1 coolant was tested extensively and has all the good properties we require, but no bad characteristics. Could the comment made be because Caterpillar developed the extended life coolant and gets a few cents for every gallon sold?

I admit to not being a big fan of the current 2 year life coolant because that stuff has a propensity for plugging radiator cores.