Asking Price

[pognumber15]

usually I would pass on commenting here - but about a year ago we traded our pride and joy 1994 Liberty straight across to a dealer for a new Pleasureway Van - 26 footer on a mercedes sprinter chassis. Nice ride, new, warranty, and it got twenty miles to the gallon. The problem here is that in my mind both units were about equal value - though I had far more in the Prevost. Both give you a place to eat, sleep, and travel down the highway - but there is a tremendous difference in the experience - the Prevost will take you anywhere a bus that size can go - with all - I repeat - all the comforts of home. The one we bought was purchased as is/where is in about 2006 - it replaced a 1999 Beaver Marquis 40' non-slide coach. This particular Liberty was taken to the Detroit Diesel/Allison shop in Redmond, Oregon where I paid for a prepurchase inspection then based on the result of this inspection which included full electronic analysis and records - I paid for a full service on the engine, transmission, and chassis. The total cost was about $2,000 and I was very pleased as I had a coach I could safely drive anyplace. It needed six new tires (two front tires were new) and a set of chassis batteries and the coach batteries. It needed about three hundred hours of time to replace light bulbs, put in a new water system which had been frozen up in Maryland sitting outside in winter at a shop that was supposed to be fixing it, replace almost every one of the mini-lights in the instruments and controls up front - and run down numerous lousy repairs done by supposedly reputable shops around the country. A new HeadHunter pump, filter system, and several fittings in the water compartment got water going. The Webasto heat system was not operable, opened the valves on both the intake and outlet side, took a look at the control system, and determined something definitely was wrong - but before starting a big tear down - checked the small mini-breaker up on the control box - and it was popped - five minutes after opening the valves, resetting the breaker, and turning it on - we had an operating Webasto system which actually was in good shape and did not even need a new nozzle or filter. By this time I had realized I made the buy of a lifetime on this coach - less than 20,000 miles on a new engine rebuilt by Detroit Diesel and an Allison 5 speed which was perfect. Odometer said about 38,000 miles but it had been replaced around 60,000 when the original died. No idea where the 38,000 came from but service records obtained from CarFax put the coach at about 80,000. Brand new for a bus like this. Actual out of pocket expense for parts and repairs was about $ 1,000 dollars - and that three hundred hours of labor which I did myself. That time would have run at least $ 30,000 in most shops - The tires and batteries were about $ 4,000 to $ 6,000 dollars but that is not repairs - that is just normal upkeep which had been deferred. We drove this bus many happy miles with no problems at all. Prevost provided me with original electrical and air schematics for this actual bus. It cost a phone call.

All in all -my as is/where is bus cost me $ 150,000 which was a bargain - and about $ 10,000 dollars out of pocket to make it usable. When we got it the waste tanks were full, the water tanks empty - but it came with full propane and the propane system fully checked - for those of you not very familiar with a Liberty all-electric coach - I had the opportunity - and could not resist asking to see the propane tanks that were just filled. It was hilarious as compartment after compartment was opened only to find no tank.

This is way too long - but about half of the so-called experts out there cause more problems than they fix. If you have the skills, and the patience, there are many good coaches out there - but they may need a lot of things fixed - these are coaches that are fairly complex but very straight-forward mechanically and electrically if you can get it back to factory configuration.

My advise would be - if you live in my part of the country or near this part of the country - buy a Marathon - we live in Oregon near Eugene - and they will work on a Liberty these days - but they are Marathon experts - if you live near Chicago Liberty is probably the best coach to buy. If you want assurance of a good deal, and in my mind a good deal is one you can drive and use - the factory stores are excellent and you get what you pay for. They usually provide new coach experience for a used coach price. They are not cheap - but my coach would have been a complete disaster for someone who has not done a lot of coach work in the past and did not care how many hours it took to make it right - I enjoyed the project - and am back looking for the next one - just don't tell my wife that yet.

We sold the Sprinter Van and bought a really nice 2007 Corvette Roadster so these days we motel it in luxury - but we still miss that old bus at times.

Chuck W.
POG 15

[0533]

Lets have some fun and evaluate a single coach for sale and determine what it is worth, if it is even a good value at any price, what will be required during inspection, what the achilles heels are with this model year both Marathon and Prevost. How much will be needed for upgrades to get the bus up to a nearly new standard?

Here is the bus choice: Just picked a Marathon out of the barrel for fun.

http://www.marathoncoach.com/preowne...627&coach=0625

I have chosen a 2000 Marathon H double slide bus with 115,000 miles, nice floor plan, neutral colors, looks nice on the web. The bus appears to be a Marathon trade, says "Make Offers" The shell is a 1999, so we need to check the Vin# and check Prevost Car for recalls, bulletins etc make sure all have been done. Get all of this detail before you take the time to see the bus. What Else??

Do a Carfax report on the bus, it is cheap and can tell you some details you might need to know, how many owners, actual milage etc. service dates etc

Ask the salesman to have the milage read from the DD system, and report back to compare what is advertised. ask about accident history. Marathon is very tight vested about accident history, guess they all are, make the deal subject to inspection of all work order history, no redactions.

So lets go: Value: My guess is that Marathon will take somewhere in the neighborhood of $250K maybe even $225 for the bus, maybe even less, cash no trade. Comments. It is a new year, cash is still king this bus is land fill right now, PS> this goes for most deals cash is king, my opinion is that some of the best deals will come from converters who have trade inventory on the lot. If they can free the paper from their bank it will be gone.

2000 Marathon issues: Slides, If they are Rouge slides with HWH equipment they need to be carefully checked by someone who actually understands slide rooms not just someone who works at the factory. These slides are called drop rooms because the floor actually drops down and ends up under the floor, a bit tricky, but when they work and are out the bus feels twice as large, the bedroom is really spacious, great value as long as all works. 1999 H's have some other issues, bumpers three piece, droop, trim on outside around slide rooms gets jammed up and can split looks bad. What else??

Of course there is the basic stuff, making sure you get underneath in a pit to carefully check for damage, bottoming out, if so how was it repaired?? Leaks front end, bags, shocks all of it. Get on the roof, borrow a ladder, you go up and check for damage, check all equipment, possible leaks, tree damage repair, also check all windows for damage, seals etc.

One of the hardest things is to be able to ask the sales rep to allow you and your wife to spend the afternoon in the bus with all power on, testing everything that is in the bus all systems, it is a must. Really crawl around the bus, every corner looking for leaks, damage, all of it. comments & additions?

Test drive: must, do it after you have a deal and feel good about the systems but before you have spent one dime. There is much that will be learned from the test drive: Comments & additions??

The Deal:

If Marathon accepts the offer make them service the bus, full Prevost level III service. Ask that they do all of the recalls and bulletins as well if they have not been addressed. If they offer to do a PDI make them repair all items. My guess is if they do a PDI it will be light on problems, you will need to check the listed items add the rest of the stuff, like veneer can be pricy if damaged make them repair it, headliners that are water damaged can be pricy as well. Fight for a 6 to 12 month warrantee as well, this will get sticky but fight for it. This is only the start, so be careful Comments & additions:

This should get you started, real world deal on am existing coach for sale

If we all add something it will be much easier for you to make the best choice and the best deal with your eyes wide open.

No matter how well of a deal you strike, especially if you get a lower number you will need to set aside some real $$ for upgrades, on a bus like a 2000 H at least $25K is my guess over the first 12 months.

[Alek&Lucia]

.... 1999 H's have some other issues, bumpers three piece, droop, trim on outside around slide rooms gets jammed up and can split looks bad. What else??...

Bruce,

We have 2000 H3-45 Royale, and none of the above is correct.
Where , and when did you seen 3 piece bumper on the H ?

You talking strictly about 2000 Marathon with Rouge slides, correct ?

Alek

[Loc]

Bruce,

Isn't that Jeff Gordon's old bus? It has been on the Marathon website for at least two years. I thought is was interesting that it had a treadmill in the back closet.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Everybody has an opinion on prices, but I see very few ever reflect upon the value of a coach to them.

It appears the name of the game is to beat the price down to the lowest possible level, perhaps for bragging rights, or perhaps because it is viewed as a challenge.

That is probably important if a coach is bought to be flipped, or if it is a dog that needs a lot of work. I feel strongly however that if a coach is being bought to be kept for a while a purchase is a balancing act that is part fair price, part a coach meeting your needs, and part based on the coach condition. Failing to give equal importance to either the price, coach condition, or how you like it is probably going to end up with a less than satisfactory purchase experience.

We are far from experts at buying coaches because we've only bought two and that was 14 years apart. But in both cases we have been extremely satisfied, the first solely because of dumb luck, the second because we had the experience and knew exactly what we wanted, the market prices, and the coach condition. Since we will not be trading anytime soon, if ever, the price we paid which we thought at the time was fair is now completely unimportant. The floor plan, systems, and features have risen to the top of the list now as being the most important thing about our purchase because we are very happy with them. As you live in and use a coach if there are things you don't like they grate on you. Finally, the condition of the coach has also assumed some importance. It was well maintained and that prior maintenance, combined with my maintenance has allowed us to have a lot of trouble free use of the coach. We are glad each trip does not end with a list of repairs that need to be made.

Every one of us has different criteria for a coach purchase. Some need certain features, some are looking for absolutely perfect condition, and others need to know they "stole" the coach. I think it is a balancing act to get the right coach and I feel strongly that none of us should buy a coach without experiencing that "eureka" moment when we step onto the coach for the first time and just know that it's the coach we want.

None of this is meant to say we shouldn't approach a purchase in a less than orderly manner, including a full inspection so there are no surprises after the money changes hands.

[0533]

Sorry Alek, was only referring to Marathon conversions in this case because this seemed to be the direction Mike (original post) was heading.

The attempt is to expose some of the under belly of the purchase to allow the buyer to become better informed, in an effort to save some money, find out what is required to make a good purchase better, frankly learn from our mistakes.

All conversions have issues.

One biggy with Marathon is what I call the first series of tech link relays that allow the tech link to monitor and relay (route) signals through out the bus.
Marathon does not support these relays any longer as they have moved on to another generation of tech link relays for newer conversions. So if you own an older Marathon conversion you better take extra care of the tech link system and all of the hundreds of relays that run through the bus. If you short one out, water damage, they will be very difficult to replace.

[0533]

Hello Jon,

I think that most people want the very best at a price that reflects the market, but I also feel that most of us want to at least feel we are better than others at negotiating price and value, it is natural I think? anyway it is at least important to get a baseline on what the market is paying or what one should offer when making a purchase knowing full well that the purchase is the starting point not the end. The new owner will need to spend some real money to get to the place most of us want to be with the new bus.

I was trying to say that most dealers will never share the actual problems with any used bus (in fact will stay mum on the subject during the buying experience) it is completely on the shoulders of the buyer or if the buyer is lucky enough to have a friend who owns a bus to help in the buying process to evaluate each prospect and make an informed decision.

If you find a really good example of the bus you are looking for, sometimes it makes sense to pay a premium, but it is still important to add up all factors, Price, previous ownership, maintenance, damage history, needed repairs, all of it to be able to make an informed decision. These factors will allow the buyer to settle on a price ceiling for the desired purchase.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

An experienced Prevost owner can negotiate the minefield relating to coach condition and future service issues. They have been through it, they know what things cost, they know what is critical.

A buyer looking for their first Prevost starts out in trouble unless they do their homework, and a lot of homework is required.

They still have to do the balancing act. I disagree with your analysis that every coach purchase requires the buyer to set aside serious money for upgrades or repairs. On the dealer side if they buy from a reputable seller, like Liberty (just to use them as an example) that coach is going to get a complete going over and the buyer just needs to adhere to the maintenance schedule. On a private sale we know there are a lot of POG members who take extremely good care of their coaches, and have the records to prove it. A buyer can purchase a coach from a seller such as that and just continue to maintain the coach according to schedule. Anyone buying my coach has the benefit of records that document everything done since I bought it for example, and just by looking at the logs can see what it may or may not need.

But once a buyer steps beyond a puchase that includes a comprehensive PDI or detailed maintenance history, then the buyer needs to establish a budget to zero out all the maintenance tasks.

Upgrades or modifications such as new carpeting or electronics are beyond the scope of a purchase, except to say it is cheaper to let someone spend serious dollars making upgrades, and then buy their bus for pennies on the dollar.

With the exception of an engine or transmission any buyer can bring the entire chassis up to date, including tires, batteries, all fluids, filters, air bags, brake chambers, Norgren valves, etc. for $20,000. That is based on paying someone to do it. Do it yourself and the cost is little more than half that.

[0533]

I suggested $25K is the base amount to at least mentally set aside for after purchase upgrades. We are only $5K apart here, maybe the difference in doing it yourself I guess.

The standard for upgrades is also in the eyes of the beholder. Is it what others see or what makes your bus run better, run safer, best to consider all three.

[Coloradobus]

You are correct, coach 625 is one of Jeff Gordon's previous coaches, and so is coach 777
http://www.marathoncoach.com/preowne...647&coach=0777

Every 4 windshield equipped H3-45 we have seen unless retro-fitted with the new face has a 3 piece front bumper where the center tips down for cruiseair access or a spare tire, is so equipped. It's a Prevost thing, not a converter installed thing. Yes the bumper corners are prone to droop.

Here's another a 2000 Royale H and a 1995 Vantare H with 3 piece bumpers the fog lights are each installed in the outer bumper pieces and the center bumper piece is the third tha can fold down.
http://www.philcooper.com/gallery/b0d-00/mop_000006
http://www.rjsluxurycoachsales.com/c...chid-MjU4.html