Anybody seen Joe?

[Petervs]

Anyone can start a Yahoo group for free. People can join the group for free.

Jim Skiff has no business telling anyone how much liability insurance they must have in order to be allowed to be in the group. If he is concerned about the security of POG then maybe he needs to buy liability insurance?

We do not need membership fees or sponsors at all except to provide enhancements at Rallies and to help support Jim Skiff's lifestyle.

I am amazed that after being asked to state his position on this matter, the only posting jim Skiff made was to say Joe needed liability insurance. Joe's activities, postings, donation of service work to the POG charity auctions have all made this a better website. I have long been amazed that there are hardly never direct postings from some of the companies in this business, sponsors or otherwise. Having someone from Prevost, Marathon, Liberty ,etc post direct specific details of their companies position on technical matters would be very welcome. This is sorely lacking. I belong to several other Yahoo groups ( aviation oriented) where the manufacturers do chime in, it is a wonderful addition.

I believe Jim Skiff owes the group a better explanation.

[truk4u]

Bus repair is serious business! All we have to do is remember the tragedy with Jim Scoggins, our friend and POG member. If Joe is going to do repair work for hire, any reasonable person would agree that Liability Insurance would be a must. The person doing the hiring of Joe would also be negligent if he knowingly hired Joe without any Insurance, not to mention Mechanics Risk, Workmen's Comp or other local requirements such as a Business License. Does Joe have Health Care Insurance in case of an injury?

The above would be a gold mine for the blood sucking personal injury Attorney's. In this day and age, all parties involved would get sued and the legal fee's alone would eat you alive.

I would hope that Joe could pay his dues and get back on the board as a member and whatever he does outside of POG is his own business. He could handle that business via other communication means as Jon suggested.

I also don't think you can compare the POG/Stuff sites to some Yahoo Group, that's not even apples and oranges. Skiffer has it all on the line for these two sites being his livelihood and all I have invested is 100 bucks, so I'm in no position to dispute how he runs his business.

By the way, remember the POG rules, there aren't any!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This issue is not about insurance, but insurance happens to be an example of the uneven footing.

For discussion purposes only we had two POG members get repairs or maintenance done on their coaches, and as a result they spun their axles off, or ruined them beyond repair. The shops that did the work and stood behind it either had insurance to cover their liability or pockets deep enough to cover the cost.

Lest any owner think stuff does not happen, these two POG members can jump in and elaborate. Suffice it to say the cost to repair the repairs had to have been substantial. The differential ends were destroyed, necessitating expensive machining and welding repairs. Additionally the coaches were not towable so they had to be put on trailers. One of the coaches was severely damaged when being loaded. I would not be surprised to learn the repairs to the repairs were north of $20,000 when all was said and done.

There are other examples of repair facilities eating substantial costs. My brain is a little feeble but I can recite a few instances where there were some excessive costs incurred by somebody due to errors at the repair shop, ranging from the loss of a set of batteries, to other damage.

If there is no insurance the owner has to pay for the susbsequent damage from his own pocket, and then has to try to recover. Both parties are protected by having insurance. I doubt if having insurance is a condition of being a POG member. I see that as just business advice.

[ajhaig]

POG vs Yahoo may be apples to oranges, but the old expression used in the retail industry applies here: 'you're the best - until something better comes along.'

I think Jim has done a good job with the site and I'm sure he'll work through this.

My two cents - the site has become a bit too heavy into maintenance/repairs and less about the "Prevost lifestyle."

[Petervs]

The point is not whether someone working on a coach should have liability insurance or not.

The point is that a member of POG should not be booted off with the excuse given that he has no liability insurance, or that he should be a sponsor instead of a regular member.

[phorner]

Without question, by losing Joe, we as a group have lost a significant contributor.

I sincerely hope that whatever obstacles there may be can be overcome in a manner mutually beneficial to Joe and Jim.

Hopefully there is some middle ground that will allow Joe to continue to participate in POG and still satisfy the business concerns that Jim has expressed.

I'm hoping they can find a win-win solution.....

[garyde]

It's a slippery slope . Joe started out helping other POG members for a few Lew bucks. No big payday. It has morphed into a very small business.
He could have insurance but most of his customers participate in the repairs with him as I understand it. Do we carry Liability insurance on ourselves for working on our bus or helping a friend with his bus.
It gets down to how much of this work is Joe doing. Is it a main source of income or a side job? he is wearing two hats, an individual bus owner, and a go to guy for help in repairs and friend.
When does he cross over into a full-time business .
A Liability Policy can be a couple of thousand bucks. Does the amount of work and money warrant it.

[jello_jeep]

Well, as far as what Jim does, doesn't do, or require... This forum is a business and as such he would be the dictator.

Someone has to run the show, pay for the server, pay for the programming, recruit sponsors and keep it all afloat. I don't expect him to do it for free and sure don't begrudge him making a profit if or when he does.

My first fun was Kerrville, and I couldn't figure out how someone could put on a weeks worth of eating and camping for what was charged, less than 25% of a big commercial rally.

He has made sound decisions in the past and I don't doubt he will make more in the future.

I have used Joe for service, he has stayed at my house and I like him, and have recommended him to others. He knows a great deal, and when stumped he is not afraid to use his resources to figure things out

I am not privy to what happened between the two of them, but I hope they can hammer it out. If it has something to do with finances, maybe Jim feels an obligation to be silent about it in the interest of the confidentiality all involved and I don't feel he owes me an explanation for his decisions anymore than I would owe him one for mine.

As Jon points out, when you start charging for service the rules would have to change to some extent, as liability gets spread far and wide these days.

I hope to see Joe back, this too shall pass..

Let cooler heads prevail (lets all have a Martini).

[Denny]

The last couple of days have been difficult for all of us; we all need a laugh.


A man walked into a very high-tech bar. As he sat down on a stool he
noticed that the bartender was a robot. The robot clicked to attention
and asked, "Sir, what will you have?"

The man thought a moment then replied, "A martini please."

The robot clicked a couple of times and mixed the best martini the man
had ever tasted.

The robot then asked, "Sir, what is your IQ?"
The man answered, "Oh, about 164."

The robot then proceeded to discuss the 'theory of relativity',
'inter-stellar space travel', 'the latest medical break throughs', etc...

The man was most impressed. He left the bar but thought he would try a
different tact. He returned and took a seat. Again the robot clicked
and asked what he would have. "A Martini, please."

Again it was superb. The robot again asked, "What is your IQ, sir?"

This time the man answered, "Oh about 100". So the robot started
discussing NASCAR racing, the latest basketball scores, and what to
expect the Dodgers to do this weekend.

The guy had to try it one more time. So he left, returned, and took a
stool....Again a martini, and the question, "What is your IQ?"

This time the man drawled out "Uh....‘bout 50".

The robot clicked then leaned close and very slowly asked,

"A-r-e.....y-o-u…..h-a-p-p-y…..w-i-t-h…..O-B-A-M-A ?????

[J.C. Watts]

My two cents - the site has become a bit too heavy into maintenance/repairs and less about the "Prevost lifestyle."

I would agree with that statement 100 percent. At times it appears that all our toys are nothing but problems that need fixing all the time. Perception is reality and I have to be honest that my perception and mine only, is that the site appears to be a mechanics forum most of the time. I honestly like to hear about the trips and see the great pictures you guys take. I am not a big poster but I am sure I am not the only one who signs on and hopes to read about some fun stuff rather than mechanical issues.