Anybody seen Joe?

[dalej]

As much as he would like, Joe can not read posts.

It would be good if our webmaster would post rules and ethics of the forum, so we could know where the boundries are in PM's and posts.

In the last few months Lew and Joe have been removed from this forum due to printed replies and PM's, (one side information).

We are here on this forum to learn about our bus's and share stories and voice our opinions about current topics. If and when our view needs censored, we should be called on it from the webmaster or edited by him.

If and when we are in a situation of a bad or hurtful posting from a member, it should be handled in a professional manner.

We make friends at events and for the most part members are only involved in this forum to share. Sometimes the printed words are taken wrong and thus the posting person is shunned.

Joe's intentions were only to help fellow members and it came across as a undermine of sponsors.

There are always two sides to a coin and if the membership were allowed to view both, then we all could decide on the future of POG. I was always told by the webmaster that this is a member forum and let him know what we would like, to see POG grow.

This would be a good time to voice your opinions on Lew and Joe and the webmaster would and could decide on the future of POG.

Thanks for the space.

[garyde]

Both of these gentlemen offer more to POG than detract from it. I do not know the facts behind the vanquishing so we had better hold off judgement but I like Joe and even Lew .

[dalej]

That was a good point Gary, if Joe and Lew could voice there side then the membership would or could decide to voice their opinion on the matter, much like which is better a Liberty or Marathon. It doesn't take long for us Country Coach owners to keep quiet.

[Sid Tuls]

Hi Dale, just wondering were are the rules or regulations for posting on the POG site? I thought it was an open forum Just like to Know.

[tdelorme]

Interesting information Dale, thanks. The only other RV forum I have ever paid any attention to is RV Net which is owned and run by Campingworld. It has always amaized me the amount of Campingworld bashing that goes on over there and the fact that the forum ownership allows it. There are folks who post about a good experience they had at some CW, but the bashiers are quick to jump in and post some negative comment.
I know this much, Loc's spelling and grammer have gone down the crapper since Lew ain't around to strighten him out. Hey Skiffer, can we still pay our renewals in Lewbucks??
Momma always said, if you can't say something nice

keep your damn mouth shut!!

Momma was a little rough around the edges.

[Denny]

As much as he would like, Joe can not read posts.

It would be good if our webmaster would post rules and ethics of the forum, so we could know where the boundries are in PM's and posts.

In the last few months Lew and Joe have been removed from this forum due to printed replies and PM's, (one side information).

We are here on this forum to learn about our bus's and share stories and voice our opinions about current topics. If and when our view needs censored, we should be called on it from the webmaster or edited by him.

If and when we are in a situation of a bad or hurtful posting from a member, it should be handled in a professional manner.

We make friends at events and for the most part members are only involved in this forum to share. Sometimes the printed words are taken wrong and thus the posting person is shunned.

Joe's intentions were only to help fellow members and it came across as a undermine of sponsors.

There are always two sides to a coin and if the membership were allowed to view both, then we all could decide on the future of POG. I was always told by the webmaster that this is a member forum and let him know what we would like, to see POG grow.

This would be a good time to voice your opinions on Lew and Joe and the webmaster would and could decide on the future of POG.

Thanks for the space.



I'm copying Dalej's post for reference for those reading this. I just got off the phone with Joe. I consider Joe a friend first and fellow POGer second and I was upset by some of things I heard. I always thought this forum was a "members forum" and we can discuss and disagree with one another. We discuss Liberty vs Marathon, Prevost OTR vs Country Coach OTR, blatantly bash Country Coach's service, condemn the high price of Michelin tires vs Chinese tires and other manufacturers to mention a few. These discussion are very informative and present all sides of the situation. It is up to the reader to interpret the facts and make a decision. These conversations become very pointed and condemning to some manufactures but they are allowed to continue. I have NOT talked to Lew but in Joe's case he was removed from the forum because of his negative printed responses. Why was Joe singled out and not others? I own a Country Coach and am very proud that I have obtained the position to own a Prevost. But on this forum I feel that a Country Coach is the slime and scum that floats on a stagnant pond. We are all second class citizens if we do not own a Liberty. People can condemn a CC but Joe can't say something negative about a sponsor's poor quality of workmanship. It his only his opinion and not the forums opinion.

I wonder how much negative CC talk would be permitted if they were a sponsor?

Interesting is the fact that many of his negative comments were in Private Messages that are not so private. Big Brother is watching and reading private messages. Again, these were meant as private and not for general forum reading so as not to openly criticize a supporter. But if there is a problem with a sponsor's product then it should be made known so those owning or using it can be made aware of any shortcomings. This is not undermining a sponsor but presenting useful and valuable information. If a good sponsor is reading this forum then they should respond and explain why they do something the way they do. If it is a problem then they should correct it.

Joe was also criticized for working on POGers buses. I contacted Joe and had him do a lot of work on my bus with my helping him. To me, this was a very valuable learning experience. Maybe a sponsor doesn't like this but it is free enterprise and competition is good. This helps Joe in his present situation (being without a job) and helps me to learn by working with him. Plus his work is first quality.

Joe never meant to hurt anyone feelings. He expressed his feeling just as I am doing now and many others have done since this forum has been on line. Some people are better with words and others are more direct. We are both Italian and fluff is not part of our conversation.

I am not vindicating Joe but simply presenting some of what he related to me. If there is another side to the story than Jim you need to come forward and state your case. We all paid to be a part of POG and I am proud to be a part of it even though I don't agree with everything being said. This is the United States of America and we do have freedom of speech. We may not like what is being said but we do have the right to voice our opinions.

I want Joe and Lew back.

[rodburtonmusic]

I've had conversation with Joe as well...and I'm hearing the same info that Denny and others are posting. I've learned a lot from talking with Joe...and he's helped me learn how to care for my coach. He's also the reason...by the way, that I joined this board. He was very supportive of what goes on here...and a real cheer leader to get involved.

I know times are rough...and sponsors can be pains...but frankly, if this is the way this board is done, then my membership expires in March, and I'll bid you all farewell.

[dale farley]

I agree with most of what has been said in this thread, but if this situation is not handled correctly, it can explode in all of our faces.

[Jim Skiff]

I spoke with Joe several times in the past about purchasing liability insurance for his business. I suggested it, stressed it and at this point require it for him to be on the board.

The consequences of damage to a coach or worse...to a POG member or Joe are too substantial to be ignored. Should something bad happen, as it eventually will, the consequences would be dire.

My hope and belief is that something good will come out of this. Joe taking the steps to minimize his risks and move forward with his coach servicing business.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm going to take what is likely to be considered an unpopular stance on this issue.

But first some background. Joe and I have had many hours of phone conversations. As soon as his problems were made public I helped push him towards generating income by helping other POGGERs with bus repairs and maintenance. We spent many phone conversations talking about inverters, Norgren valves, suspension systems, etc. I still support Joe and want him to continue to be a part of POG with respect to helping owners maintain their coaches.

I would like to see him back here.

But this entire topic needs to be put in perspective.

As Denny points out I have trashed CC at times for their singular lack of timely support, something I NEVER did about any converter until Ray Davis was badly abused by CC in his quest for help on his first coach. I spanked Liberty for failing to include a check valve or backflow preventer on certain coaches with HeadHunter toilets. Joe and I have been brutal in criticizing Michelin. I have been open in pointing out that owners of certain Marathons may have overloaded front axles and tires. All of that could be considered trashing converters and suppliers. I stand by what I said.

But there is one serious difference nobody has expressed. I am nothing more than a POG member expressing an opinion on an open forum. I am not in business repairing buses, I am not competing with services selling coaches or service or maintenance. I may have helped some folks with work on their coaches or offered advice, but I have never taken a penny for those efforts. Joe as a person who is doing business in competition with any of POG's advertisers who repair or maintain coaches is on a different level. First, he is competing with the very advertisers who support POG and keep it afloat. Those folks such as Liberty and Parliament and all the others have employees who have had formal training on our coaches, they PAY to advertise on the site, and they have liability insurance so their customers are protected.

Because of that I think they are entitled to a level playing field.

So from Skiffer's point of view he has a situation where his bread and butter is threatened by PAYING advertisers who feel it is unjust to allow a competitor to advertise for free, to compete without some formal training, and to do so without insurance (which they have to carry just because it is good business). I have no knowledge of who if any has complained about Joe, but I can envision complaints being made and Jim being put in the position of allowing Joe to continue as he was risking a serious loss of revenue, or asking Joe to at least make an effort to be on a more equal footing with the advertisers.

I have heard one side of this story, as have others. I believe until we can get both parties to the issue in the same room and hear them both speak we will not know the full story, only the one we are being told.

Joe is a Prevost owner. He qualiifes in that regard to be a POG member. I would hope that at some point he can pony up his $100 and join us. If he wishes to compete with advertisers I would say word of mouth is all he now needs, so if he could rejoin, he needs to be aware as a competitor he has an obligation to either stay silent on some issues, or pay as an advertiser, and address the training or insurance issue (that's between him and Jim) he should be a part of this group. There are a lot of us who may have done some business because of this group but not in competition with advertisers. I am sure some electric boxes have been purchased from my daughter, and I bet one or two cars have been sold, but none of those things dig into an advertiser's pockets.

Remember, one of the things that makes this a great forum is we can say anything we want within reason. But as soon as we become competitors with those who are financially supporting this group, and we are not paying to advertise, we should be very careful what we say and how we say it.

As to the privacy issue, there is none. On a site like this there is no free speech. We are at the mercy of the Webmaster who has a lot of differing points of view he has to protect. PM's are not private. I don't know why anyone should consider them private and if something needs to be expressed that is confidential it should be done via the phone, in an email or in person.

We can treat this as a popularity contest for Joe, or we can look at this as a knotty problem that has put Skiffer in a no win situation. I think the solution is simple. Joe and Jim need to communicate. We need to stay the hell out of this. If Joe and Jim can resolve the issues that is great, but if they cannot that is too bad, but it is not the end of Joe or POG. It just means Joe will not be on POG and Jim will have lost a contributor to the forum.

Flame away.