Let's make POG better

[Petervs]

Fellow Poggers,

A few weeks ago there was a long thread mostly about the booting off the site of a member. This concerns me very much, and since no reasonable explanation has been forthcoming, I have decided to cancel the automatic renewal of my $100 annual dues when it comes up in mid October. This is a sad occasion, as I have met a lot of friendly and knowledgeable people in POG, as well as a few clowns and religious or political zealots. I think I have contributed my fair share of useful information, humor, and snide remarks over the past few years. Joe C's posts on the conversion of his coach and some of his other projects were among the more interesting threads we have had lately, and without them POG is less valuable to me. But the underlying reasons for his departure are much more important to consider.

It is now 10 days before the OKC rally, and rather than just disappear from the group I thought I would bring this up again in the hope it might spark some discussion at the rally for possible improvements to POG. Perhaps as you drive to OKC you can consider the issues and a meaningful dialog can ensue while many members are together. I am all in favor of working to make POG better but I can not continue with POG as it is now. Let me know how I can help.

My concerns are as follows:

1. Either we are MEMBERS or CUSTOMERS. If we are members, then that infers we have some say over the operation of the group, by providing input to a manager or board of directors, or by participating in the creation of a document that governs the operation by a manager, bylaws if you will. If we are customers, then we simply take what is provided for the price charged, or not. The home page of POG calls us members. But there is no mechanism to affect the operation of POG by members. All we can do is call or email Skiff and he decides without recourse. As it is now I feel I am being treated as a customer, not a member, and I know how to act as a customer if I am not satisfied.

2. The home page also states: "The Prevost Owner's Group (POG) is an open group dedicated to sharing in-depth information 24/7 on the internet, and at occasional rallies. Anyone who has an interest in the Prevost ownership experience is welcome to join, current owner or not. Members are people who are interested in learning more about Prevost ownership, lifestyle, mechanics, finances; the entire range of topics essential to full
enjoyment of a Prevost coach."

There is no mention anywhere about membership being denied to anyone. The only comment made by Jim Skiff on the site about removing Joe is that he needs to have insurance, but that is not a requirement to belong to POG. Is it required that we all have insurance? What kind? What limits? Surely this is absurd.


3. There is a list of sponsors on the home page, but the sponsors rarely if ever post any information on the site. I think we would all benefit if the sponsors participated in the discussions concerning their products. In my mind, the big 3 are Prevost, Marathon and Liberty, but many smaller suppliers like the inverter manufacturers or the tire companies as examples would be a welcome addition to thread participation. What is POG doing to address this?

What benefit do us "members" derive from having the sponsors at all? I know they pay higher annual dues to advertise on the site and to fatten the Skiff coffers, and they occasionally pay for something at a rally, but really, why are we better off having sponsors at all? If you work for Marathon say, can you not simply be a member as an individual? What "rule" requires one to be a sponsor instead of a regular member? What benefit does a sponsor derive from paying the extra money each year?

4. There is the issue of private messages. If 'private' means they can or will be read by the webmaster, then that should be noted in the FAQ section under private messaging. The cat is already out of the bag on this, but future members might not get the history.

5. Lastly, it has often been noted on the site that there are no rules. Under why one should join POG, it states: "There is no hierarchy, boss, politics, everyone enters as an equal."If there are no rules, fine, then no rules have been broken and no one can or should be booted off the group. If there are rules, they should be published so we all know what they are, and what happens when they are broken.

I am dismayed that when this thread was running so many POGGERS just wanted this whole issue to go away rather than address it publicly once and for all.

I would like to continue to belong to the POG group. I hope that some progress can be made on some of these issues to make me change my mind. I am not saying Joe must be "re-membershipped" but there must be some momentum within POG to clean up this internal mess before I will continue.

For those who plan to flame me for bringing up this dirty laundry again, thanks in advance for your fine upstanding morals. For those who want to address these issues let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Looking forward to everyone's comments!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Until all the facts are known any debate on this topic is going to be nothing more than an exercise which will piss people off. I think the topic should be dicsussed, if necessary, not about anyone in particular, but in how to deal with some of the points raised.

Personally I would like to see this issue ended.

[grross]

Peter...well said!!

[Denny]

Peter,

You have expressed exactly the way I feel about the Joe situation. I thought that I was alone in my feelings. I have kind regards for Joe and yes he came to Ohio to work on my coach. After he left, I discovered a minor problem with the work he did and he returned to Ohio from Chicago to correct it at no cost to me. I wish all companies were as thorough as Joe and backed their work as he does.

There are some very knowledgeable members in POG and I considered Joe one of them. He contributed a great amount of info based on his many years of trucking and practical experience.

Another concern of mine is Lew. Why was Lew disbarred from the group? Unless I missed it, there was very little mentioned about him and the reasons for his dismissal.

I am not against POG and Jim Skiff. I want to see it grow and prosper for Jim and all of the "members". Over my several years of membership, I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge about Prevost and the many converters.

[parksincpp]

Can anyone give a summary of what happened with Joe and Lew so that I can understand? Maybe the name of the thread or a link?

[Petervs]

Hi Scott,

Well, you have now identified the problem. All this has happened behind the scenes and not much has been out in public except for a few little tidbits here and there.

The original thread is called "Anybody seen Joe?" in the category Miscellaneous Items.

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/...t=happened+joe

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter, I am trying to figure your motive. Right now, despite my email to you you still seem to want to stir the pot. Perhaps you can correct me about your motives which seem designed to inflict the greatest amount of turmoil for Jim while he is trying to do the best he can for those of us in POG.

Your dumb comment about wanting to know what is going on behind the scenes is a perfect example. I would bet in your business you never revealed all of your motives to either your customers or employees, but you expect Jim to reveal his.

If you took the time to read my email you know the reason for the absence of Joe and that reason does not have to be made public. Despite the great posts made by Joe and the help he has provided to others he apparently has made a choice.

With regard to your other questions, if you can back off of making this topic about personalities and focus discussion on shaping policy or creating a more open group it would make sense to discuss them. But as long as you make the discussion about individuals the discussion will quickly disintegrate.

I thought you were a bigger man. You have a twisted sense of humor and values and I love most of your posts because of that, but right now I agree maybe you should let your membership lapse.

[ajhaig]

I can see both sides of this issue.

Jim's prospective:

It's Jim's site and he calls the shots. I'm sure Jim recognized, when he made his decision, that Joe added a tremendous amount of value to the group. Clearly there was more to the decision then proper insurance coverage.

Members' perspective:

People come to places like POG for information. It doesn't make a difference to the member seeking information if the information is coming from a fellow member, a fellow member with a side business, or from a POG sponsor.

What I don't understand is how this issue will "piss people off"?

About what? That Joe got the boot? Or that people will be reminded that some of the content (that they're paying for) has been unilaterally censored away? It seems to me that the facts will never be known.

I highly doubt that anyone will be pissed off because they're afraid that Joe may rejoin the group.

I think the world of POG and its members and feel that it would be a big loss if Peter leaves the group.

Early in our trip we had some problems with our coach, we were in Peter's neck of the woods and he offered to help us out. He invited us to stay at his home (50 amp service, sewer and water) and he spent the better part of a day helping me with the coach.

Additionally, Peter isn't afraid to speak his mind or disagree for fear that he may be less popular with the group. People like Peter bring a sense of balance to groups like POG, you may not agree with them all the time, but in the long run they make it a better place.

The OKC Rally looks like it will be a great time. Perhaps this issue can be kicked around and we can get some clarity and closure to it.

Keep up the good work Jim.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Good Bye PeterVS.

We are going to miss having your posts, almost as much as we miss, Joe C. and Lew.

Gary S.

[0533]

POG is a very small, specialized users group, as a result many of its membership know each other very well, as friends online and off, occasional rallies, trading stories and helping one another.

It is very disappointing to find that there has been a falling out between membership and Jim Skiff.

Unfortunately the barn door is now open, it has been fueled by the various threads and it should be resolved.

The posts that I have read so far seem to indicate a general uneasiness about the current events, the way it was handled and the long term affect it my have on the forum.

This entire problem has been played out in the public arena, it should be resolved there, and try to do so with a very high level of transparency in an effort to regain the high level of confidence we all have for POG.

Lets cut to the chase and get this issue dealt with, if Joe has actually violated the basic rules of POG?? Has done something that is so egregious to another POG member or to a client?? then we should be made aware (if Joe and Jim will allow us all to hear what actually occurred) so we can all develop a clear understanding of the POG rules for membership. It is only fair for all of us to be on an even playing field.