inverter repair-again

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bill,

When you talk to BG put their responses in perspective. They have some very good technical people, but I doubt if a single one of them has owned and lived with a coach. Your situation is a numbers issue. You have 2500 watts available if you are willing to push your inverter to the limit, and an AC unit uses at least 2/3 of them, (or if the current draw is close to Truk's all of them) nothing the tech says changes that.

You have only two options as I see it. Get a bigger inverter, and hope the Royale wiring was heavy enough so you do not have to pull new wires, or accept the fact that if you need AC while driving you will crank up the generator and keep the whole bus comfortable.

No disrespect to the salesmen, but I seriously doubt if any of them can get into the nitty gritty on this issue because you need to know wire sizes, if a remote needs to be changed, and how to balance the loads on the inverters so you can run all that you need while driving.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Bill you never did mention how many amps your a/c draws?

The start up amperage is taken into consideration by the inverter manufacturers. On our Heart it is twice its rated capacity.

Jon and I agree on every single issue here accept for safely continuously pulling 1600 watts (what I good a/c would be pulling) off a 2500 watt inverter.

If I were you I would give Mr. Dave Gusdorf a call and get his comments, and then share them. I think I would also want to talk to Royal Phoenix.

[Bill1170]

I am at BG and will see Wayne Clapp,the only person here I trust.

Joe who is Dave Gusdorf? I did talk to Dan Jourdan today and he cant understand why one AC wont run off the inverter.

Also how do I find the amps draw of the AC?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, we agree about an inverter pulling 1600 watts. If that was all it pulled I have zero issues with that. I am looking at the big picture however.

When I am on inverters, such as when driving with the generator off, we have the TV on so we can listen to 50's music on the Direct TV, we make coffee, the refrigerator is running, etc. So unless the inverter is dedicated solely to the AC unit we are not pulling 1600 watts. As Karen and Tuga know I don't make coffee and I don't want Di having to do energy management. We own a "luxury" coach and we don't want to have to watch our energy loads.

But secondly, and here is where I am really opposed to buses without OTR, if you need to run one AC unit, you probably need to run two or three. If it is warm enough to need to supplement the driver's air with one of the roof or Cruise Airs, it is almost a sure bet the coach is getting warm inside. Point the bus in a southerly direction so the sun is coming in through the windshield and the front is like a sauna. Or if the sun is streaming through the side windows it is getting hot inside. If the engine is running the bedroom is toasty.

Unless a person is willing to sit in 80 degree temps and is comfortable, if you have to run one AC I guarantee the rest of the bus needs AC. The solution is simplle. Turn on all AC units, set the SMX controls to whatever temp is desired (70 or 72 in our case) and crank up the generator. Forget the inverter.

Everybody worries about running the generator. Wear and tear, use of fuel, etc. Screw it. It was meant to run, and the fuel used is inconsequential compared to what owning the bus really costs.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon I am just trying to help Bill get his camper to function as designed but am happy to debate this with you for the benifit of all.

He has 2 2500 watt inverters. ANYONE with 2500's needs to manage power while inverting even taking a/c out of the equation. Give me 5 min in your bus. Fridge on, coffeepot on microwave on and a curling iron or blow drier, u-line ice maker and some tv. Here is a scenario that is really quite normal for us BUT is not one that would require more than just a few minutes. This is the scenario when the gen runs for us and I do. What I would not want is a bus without OTR and that was unable to run any house a/c without the gen.

I have OTR a/c I like it but for the way we use the bus and what I'm learning about non OTR buses it would not be a deal breaker for us. If we are going to be moving around and the forecast would be TOO HOT, shoot I am not going to drive in the heat of the day anyway (even with OTR) because I do not want to tax the engine or tires or trans and all the other components, it will happen early or late evening or better yet through the night. Dash air and 1 house air will work wonderfully. I know you are old going blind and unwilling to drive at night and I can appreciate that.

If Bill separates his fridge and a/c to different inverters he could get the advantage of running 1 a/c without having to run the gen as designed and yes will have to manage loads while doing it and IMO there will be enough times where that situation poses itself to justify doing it. If I did not have OTR and had a 2500w inverter, I choose inverter for 1 a/c when needed over the gen, it will only be used intermittently as needed along with all the other potential intermittent loads , I know I am not alone.

Bill, Dave Gustdorf is a guy who does Heart inverter repair he is out of Santa Fe, NM. Many here have used him and he will for sure help you with inverter questions and problems.

Who is Dan Jourdon and is he is aware you are also currently trying to power the fridge and a/c on the same 2500 at the same time?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, Our inverters are set up so energy management is not an issue.

We have a refrigerator, outlets, TV, aux air compressor and microwave on ours. They are split up so all normal use allows us to do anything we would reasonably want to do without worrying about what else might be drawing power.

The two biggest loads we put on the system are the microwave, or our coffee maker which is plugged into the forward outlets. I believe the two are on separate inverters. Yes you can overload it by figuring out what stuff is on each inverter and then plug more stuff into the outlets, but we don't, or at least haven't up to now.

[Bill1170]

I like watching y'all debate, I'm learning something.

Joe, I did separate the fridge from the AC. Now I have the fridge and water pump on one inverter, and the microwave and the aux air pump on the other. The recepticals on rt and lf side of coach are on different inverters.

Dan Jourdan is with Royal Phoenix, and he was with Monaco when they were building Royal coaches.

I hope Wayne can get this inverter repaired today...

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Bill you should be able to see how much the air conditioner draws at the house control panel. Not all buses have all meters, IMO all should have all. For example we do not have a/c voltage in.

Ideally the total package for meters: both legs of a/c volts coming in AND then what the amp draw is for both those legs, 4 meters.

Additionally you should also be able to monitor the house battery voltage and the draw on them on them too. 2 meters

Finally each inverter should show what you are pulling off it. 1-2 meters

Personally I prefer the old analog gauges over the digital or meter styles(illuminated bars).

Moving the a/c with the microwave will require power management but should beat the alternative of overloading it by having the fridge and the a/c randomly both try to kick on at the same time, a phenomenon you have no control over that very well could be causing the problem.

Question: Does anyone know if the battery chargers will continue to work on a bus that has manual inverter bypass switches in the on position? If a bus were set up like that any time you were on shore or gen you could just shut them off.



Bill the air conditioners will show up on the amperage draw for one of the two legs of a/c current. 12 amp is wonderful 15 amp is a power hog. I can't help thinking there were other reasons for Royals choices for circuts that I am missing.Let us know.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

I don't know exactly how your coach inverters are wired back to the 120V panel, but I know exactly how mine are wired.

I have two #10 three wire cables attached to the 50 amp inverter breaker in the electrical panel feeding each inverter. The Heart Interface Freedom 2500 inverters that I have have two input circuits. One is dedicated to the battery charger, and the second is dedicated to the pass through transfer switch. The output going back to the 120 volt panel and the three circuits that particular inverter handles is a #10 three wire cable.

Under the NEC a #10 wire is rated for 30 amps.

To use your example you could overload any inverter, but when it is not inverting and is functioning as a pass through transfer switch you could conceivably create a hazard unless the pass through restricts the load via a circuit breaker. For example, on mine I told you the input cables are coming from a 50 amp breaker. In reality only one of the two three wire cables is pass through so there is a 50 amp breaker protecting a #10 wire.

On the output side there is the same size 3 wire #10 cable, but it feeds for example a microwave circuit, a forward outlet circuit, and perhaps a TV circuit. They each have a 20 amp Circuit breaker so if I load those three circuits simultaneously as you point out you can do, it is possible to never trip a 120 volt panel breaker, never exceed the inverter capability since this is just pass through power, yet you could be putting 50 amps through a #10 wire.

My point is simple and supports what you say. We do need to be aware of energy management, and particularly as relates to inverters. Just because the converter screwed things together to work in a particular fashion, it does not make it OK to push the limits.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Bill has droped off the radar He must be at BG

I am very curious how he made out.