Water in Fuel

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

I'm a non-believer in additives not recommended by the manufacturer of the engine or coach. I have this silly attitude that says the engineers that design these products are likely to have more knowledge about the needs of those products than anyone else.

That is not to say someone can't invent a better mouse trap, but if a product did offer improvements that they say on the bottle, the manufacturer of the engine or coach would buy the product, slap their label on it, double the price and claim it was necessary.

That ain't happening.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon
I don't think it is as simple at that. I used to think that they did the best with the designs, but it is the best they could. Either because of technology, government restrictions, and costs. There's a whole after market industry that thrives on short comings of OEM products.

My many Excursion came with 265 x 16 x70 tires but the speedometer is more accurate now that I have put 285's on it. The roof rack touches the roof and rubs the paint off, the back hatch doesn't open high enough becuase the put short shocks on it. All this so it would not be too high to fit in a garage.

The engine wasn't designed with enough headboots to support even a little extra pressure if you put a chip in it to get more HP or economy. So why wasn't designed a better OEM chip or better head gaskets? Since they were having problems with the head gaskets and OEM chips they beef the bolts up. But there are those on the web that work on these thing still tell you that if you have your heads off put in after market head bolts. I think money, Government and technology are a major factor in these things.

The only thing that worries me on these after market parts and such is will the OEM parts take the strain.

GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Greg,

I agree there are very few things that cannot be improved. What I cannot wrap my brain around is how some liquid in a bottle can make my engine produce more power, give me better fuel mileage, and clean my injectors.

I know the changes in fuel formulation have had a detrimental impact on my performance. What I am questioning is will this or any product reverse the impact, and how are claims the product works proven?

If this product has been proven to not do any harm I would be happy to experiment with it because I have records of every gallon of fuel I have ever pumped into both my buses. It would take me about a year to accumulate enough miles to satisfy myself the claims are valid or they are bogus, but absent a way to determine the magic juice will do no harm I don't dare add it to my fuel. Ditto for stuff claimed as oil additives.

Replacing door struts and head bolts is not akin to adding something you cannot see working. Alll of the things you described have instant results which can be seen or measured.

[Kenneth Brewer]

This is a topic I will claim to have just a bit more than passing knowledge. Chemistry, and molecular chemistry - a subtopic - is complex and problematic when trying address and provide multiple benefits in the area of machine oil, and more specifically engine oil. It is not a simple as just lubricity. Other factors include;

Resistance to oxidation
Resistance to biological growth
Film strength
detergent properties (keeping dirt/impurities in suspension long enough to get to the filter)
temperature conduction (hot plate test)
acidity resistance (pH neutral properties - buffering)
wear resistance vs film strength (four ball test)
viscosity
viscosity maintenance
foaming resistance
water solubility (and resistance to retention)
freezing resistance
stratification/separation/precipitant resistance
sulfuric acid resistance (and generation)
etc.

For just a brief bum's rush through this, just a taste:

Vegetable oils for years had very high film strengths that exceeded petroleum oils; (racing) castor oil, whale oil, and ultimately rapeseed oil at one point. But, these vegetable oil based lubricants, while having great lubricity, turn rancid after a period of time when stored or in a crankcase/sump. Furthermore, they were not so good with rust prevention. Or viscosity range with temperature change. Or detergent ability. Or resisting growth of 'stuff' in them. Etc.

That's (one reason) why they were mixed with fuel and burned with it. They had high film strength, and in these applications could lubricate without bathing or sumping or pumping. But soot/carbon generation is/was an issue, but not necessarily a big problem with two strokes where the oil/fuel were mixed before carburetion, because periodic top end teardown was part of maintenance.

To whittle this down a lot: a motor oil or fuel formulation is a blending and balancing act. Additives off the shelf can RUIN the rating and applicability of oils and fuels. All bets are off unless specifically approved by the manufacturer of whatever it is the additives is being applied to. If anyone has superior knowledge they are (of course) welcome to dismiss what I have said in this little ranting (sorry, this is/was a hot button of mine).

Unless there is a specific issue being addressed by the additive that someone has direct expertise in, roulette is being played. To suppose that someone can, by instinct and label (ad) reading, perform better than years of (expensive and time consuming) labwork and trial is more than just presumptuous, it is usually counterproductive and possibly dangerous, and at the least, wasteful.

[gmcbuffalo]

Good points. I tried once adding ether to my gas once to get better mileage (theory was it was suppost to make a more even ingntion of fuel) but I didn't drive the truck enouh, or remember ot always add the ether or put the necessary miles on with and without to get any valuable data. Sometimes this stuff id just "feel good" products. Until someone like you that can account for every drop of fuel tries these product we will never known the truth.
GregM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ken,

I was going to say that!

You said in an excellent and informative way why I am afraid to add anything not endorsed or recommended by the engine or transmission manufacturer.

I just don't know enough to be able to measure harm or benefit, and your explaination makes us aware of potential dangers we would never even consider, but which are all possible.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

O/K what about this Z-max product that claims to soak into the metal?

I do not believe that is possible

Ken I am guilty of putting Lucas oil additive in my engines. I am probably guilty of all the above suggestions of potential side effects but I can also verify that I also see increased oil pressure all the way through the oil change cycle with it.

Can you tell me about Lucas Oil additive? I do run it in the 8-V too.

[Kenneth Brewer]

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[Kenneth Brewer]

Joe,

The best answer I can give is: I don't know. That way I don't have to keep my lies straight. It is possible to permeate metals to some degree - in the cases I am/was familiar with - heat is usually involved - i.e., for case hardening, nitriding, and other types of bonding. Certainly, to my understanding (I am not a chemist or metallurgist), the depth of this sort of thing might be in microns. And such treatments do work, insofar as I am aware, but what I am not certain of is whether this is or can be accomplished to an effective degree by contact with a fluid containing these molecular compound chains. I am not sure the carrying liquid is necessarily "oil" as we think of the term, in that bottle of stuff on the shelf being sold as an additive.

What I feel I am on firmer ground with is; attention must be paid on what side effects can be generated - some treatments are through trace amounts in the carrier (in this case oil), either because of the pH (acidic or caustic), certainly solubility, maybe hygroscopic tendency (affinity for water), salts (not table salt), etc. Contamination and poisoning (of the constituents in the oil) of components for things such as anti rusting, anti foaming, microbial growth) is always an issue. And other stuff I don't have a clue about. And expense (in manufacturing and materials) is always a factor in formulation. I would say if the results were that good, it is likely that the oil manufacturer would/will include it in the first place.

In any case, lubricity is NOT the only requirement for an oil, particularly for a sump/pump system. Another taste of an issue (the importance of which I also don't really know) is the corrosion that can take place on metal at the oil level/air junction in a sump (oil pan). That is one reason why some oils may be approved for certain engine (aluminum vs. cast iron) or gasket/o-ring materials only. Keep in mind also; sulfuric acid is produced by the combustion of plant based hydrocarbon fuels. That is one reason ULSD fuel is mandated now.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I recall years ago going on the Jack Daniels Distillery Tour in Lynchburg, Tn. Someone in the group asked why It (the whiskey) was called Sour Mash whiskey? The tour guides answer was sharp and dry: It says so on the bottle.

Roger I went on that same tour, did you get any Whiskey Samples? All we got was lemonade

Gary S.