Service

[Loc]

There are some of us Prevost owners who rely on third parties to do the repairs and maintenance on our buses. Jon has been doing some inspection and service work on my former 1992 XL for the new owners. Unforunately, I have learned that notwithstanding my willingness to spend the money (and actually spending the money) to keep the bus in what I thought was tip top shape, the quality of service that I was receiving was less than adequate. Jon would say incompetent at best. I have service provided by several different providers (three in Houston and Prevost in Dallas) so I want to research the specific issues before I cast any stones. Jon can provide more detail, but some of it has to do with repairs that were made incorrectly (with potentially catastrophic outcomes) and general maintenance that was not performed. Given my schedule it will take a few weeks to dig everything out and research it. I also want to talk to the service providers prior to posting any results, but I will post what I find.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Now that Loc has gone public I will reveal some of the detail regarding what has been found.

First we found that despite Loc's efforts to have regularly scheduled maintenance performed, all those responsible failed to do even the most basic tasks. There were more grease fittings invisible, under long term accumulations of grease and road grit than were visible. This was a clear indication lube jobs were either not performed, or only partially performed.

The adjusters on the slack adjusters (Loc's coach had manual adjusters on the tag and steer axles) were frozen. His brakes had not been adjusted in a long time.

One of the hub seals had been leaking so much, and for so long that at least a pound of grease, grit, sand and crud had built up in the inner drive axle wheel. The brake drum and shoes were glazed with grease. He could not possibly have had braking ability on that axle. With the poorly adjusted brakes and the glazed drive axle shoes a panic stop would have been impossible.

There was evidence everywhere of sloppy work. Flat washers used where lock washers were required. Stripped nuts. Built up dirt and crud indicating that if the coach was supposed to be getting regular lubes a lot of the work was just not being performed.

But the most significant and serious problem found when replacing the drive axle hub seal was that the outer axle nut did not have the safey tabs to lock it in position. That nut was free to loosen, and if it had Loc would have experienced the separation of the wheels, hub, brake drum and axle from the coach.

The coach is almost reassembled and Eric and Deb now have a fine coach with everything brought back to new condition. I want all to be aware that the random comments on this forum about lousy repairs and shoddy worksmanship are serious and that unless POG members have absolute trust in their maintenance facility it is critical that they take the responsibility to verify the work has been done completely and properly. It is one thing to forget a grease fitting, but it is something else entirely to improperly assemble something jeapardizing safety.

[dalej]

This is a great thread, everyone on this forum should read between the lines and realize that when you hand your bus over to someone else you should follow up the visit with an inspection of your own when you get home.

But how do I know what to look for you might ask. If after a trip, you park your bus on the proper bus supports in your building. Then at some point before your next trip out you will have to get under your bus and personally inspect the bottom side of your bus.

You will learn so much from the bottom side of a bus.

[BrianE]

While following Dale's suggestions is doubtless the most effective way to assure ourselves that we are getting what we pay for, the truth is not everyone is inclined to get under the bus.

Whether not having the facilities, the time, or maybe a touch of claustrophobia in rare cases, getting under the machine on jacks/support stands for some of us just isn't going to happen. The next best alternative is to get involved with your mechanic. One of the best perks that the Prevost Service Centers offer is free access to the maintenance area. Take advantage of the privilege. Ask questions, when having routine service done, have a look at the lubrication charts found on your rear or driver bay doors. Come to the facility with an idea of what is going to be accomplished. The maintenance manual can be downloaded from the Prevost website. http://technicalpublications.prevost...om/en/pub.asp# Most of the maintenance procedures are described in the manual and take very little time to review. When the work is completed, ask the shop foreman to help you review the work done. In my experience they are happy to do so or when busy, will assign an experienced man to help you inspect the job.

I learn something every time I have had maintenance done at Prevost. Mostly I have learned to try and ask the right questions. A for instance would be that when recently informed my king pins needed replacement (estimated $2500.00 ) at the Nashville facility, I should have asked about the criteria used for that recommendation. I accepted the word and experience of the mechanic. I SHOULD have asked to review the Maintenance Manual with the foreman. The criteria for this procedure doesn't trust to opinion, it uses measured parameters and should have been checked with a dial indicator.

Jon's discovery of poor maintenance and excessive greasing of the slack adjusters on Eric and Deb's coach is something that should concern all of us. A lube job and brake adjust performed by an inexperienced technician can easily render a brake useless and it can happen in one trip to the lube rack. Typically, the lube rack is a starting position in most shops and unless the technician has had some good training or is watched by an experienced hand, a slippery downhill trend can be started.

Dale is right. This is a terrific thread. The experience we share in learning about our magic carpets is invaluable. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to my own knowledge bank...even Loc

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Not in a million years would I as an owner think to pull an axle after hub seals have been replaced to verify the outer safety nut is secured with the proper part. There is some level of trust required when turning our coaches over to someone else for repairs.

But.....I get to talk to a lot of people contemplating the purchase of a coach and it absolutely blows my mind that in almost every case there is no string of maintenance records. Loc has them and he can determine what facility and when his hubs were incorrectly installed. Using his records he is in a position to discuss this very serious issue with the owner or manager to hopefully prevent it from ever happening again. It is his decision if he wants to go public and name the faciliies.

So I suspect the average owner is not going to be in a position to determine when something seriously wrong has been done via an inspection, but I am strongly agreeing with Brian that as owners I think it is vital to stand shoulder to shoulder with the mechanic or manager and review what was done to the point if necessary of reviewing the shop manual and verifying if critical tasks were performed and they were performed correctly.

I know of two POG members who have recently experienced serious problems as a result of hub seal replacement. One had a set of bearings cooked and then damage to the coach because it had to go up on a trailer. The other one had continuing leaks and ultimately had the axle (the face of which got bent), bearings and hub seals replaced after repeated attempts to correct problems which were the result of an improper repair.

There are others out there that have been suffering at the hands of poor repair facilities or mechanics.

I can only recommend from this recent experience that as owners you develop a strong degree of cynicism and, if permitted, review the repair manual and verify with the mechanic or managers that everything has been done in accordance with the book, that you advise them you are keeping notes and retaining all records, and that you expect all work done to the standards implied by the $100 an hour charge.

I also suggest that Ken Z's method of recording step by step what was done and when the work started and when it ended and when the mechanic did other tasks not related to the coach also be done.

Forget the pleasant personalities. Look for a shop that is open to your questions, understands you will not accept second class work, and that if you find errors or shortcuts taken you will demand compensation. These buses are fairly tolerant of abuse, especially at the hands of idiots, but not in all situations and not forever. I wish I could understand why in the last few years we are hearing of so many serious errors or problems getting quality service.

Finally, one thing I learned in aviation is that if I want a comprehensive job done at annual inspections I take the plane to different inspectors. One inspector may have a focus on one part of the plane or systems, and another may view the plane from a different perspective and catch things the previous inspector overlooked. And they love pointing out the other guy's shortcomings.

[Danss]

Jon, do you know the number of grease fittings underneath? An idea of the number would give me the knowledge to get under and be with the mechanic at next oil/filter change. Thanks, Dan

[Loc]

Thanks Brian, it was a very small contribution.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Jon Wehrenberg, or anyone having direct knowledge/experience;

Do you have a recommended length (height) of proper chassis support stands/blocks to fit under the chassis support/jack points, please? I haven't found that dimension, and I have only begun reviewing the manuals, so I guess I am a bit lazy, if you have this info, I would appreciate it.

These blocks would be placed at the proper chassis points either at 'normal' ride height, or when the bus chassis is manually raised to max height.

Thanks either way.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dan....The number of fittings may vary with the coach. I think an IFS coach will have a number different than my straight axle coach. A disk brake coach has a different number of fittings than a drum brake coach. But there is access to the number of fittings for your coach via a page in the owner's manual that shows graphically all the lube points such as fluids and zerk fittings. I think that diagram is also available via the Prevost Car web site. I know the recommended maintenance schedule in both miles and time is available for download.

I have learned however that with the exception of suspension system bushings, if it moves underneath it has a grease fitting.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kenneth, The support stand dimensions were 14" for the front support points on an XL and XLII.

The rear support stands were 13" for a XL, and 12" for an XLII.

At least that was the dimensions they were made to and there was a little room for shim spacers. The bus was to be fully raised on the suspension for these to work beneath the coach.

You must use supports adequate for the weight, and those supports must be placed under the body (chassis) support points as shown on the Prevost drawing.