Alert !!!!/ Toad Air Brake Tn rally

[0533]

Good morning All,

I have been traveling and am just now getting back online to look at these posts.

Here is what we found with the "Air Force One Air Brake" system. They mounted the Air tank, small version of the Prevost tanks and a valve near the D/S rear tag wheel up under the frame attached near the U shaped tunnel for the drivetrain shaft. When the Prevost leveling system was air was dumped the fitting between the Air Force One valve and the Air Force one tank caught on the corner of the Prevost frame and snapped of the valve at the fitting to the tank. The noise that I heard was the air in the tank evacuating. What I could not understand is why my main air was acting squirrely, not running up and dropping off quickly. I ended up having to replace my dryer in this process as it would not blow off at full pressure after this event. It might not be related but it was odd. The bottomline here is that the Prevost equipment and placement has been engineered carefully and with all of the potential pitfalls in mind. I am afraid that this is not the case with others, as there is not enough experience with our heavy complex units. Mine ran great out of jacksonville to San Antonio Fl. but I have to say that there is a large ????? mark in the back of my mind about the future, rocks, whatever. Hope I am wrong and am sure that the folks at Air Force One will be carefully looking into this and will report back to us online to give us a first hand assessment.

[phorner]

This is bad news, as I think that you have to assume that ALL installations performed at the rally were done in the same manner. What would be the rationale to doing it differently on individual busses?

It seems to me that everyone that had the Air Force One installed at the rally should have their installation inspected as soon as possible to determine what needs to be rectified.

[lloyd&pamela]

Bruce did you have the Aif Force One tank relocated at Prevost? What was your fix?

[lloyd&pamela]

We did the tests this morning that Jon and Joe mentioned and do not hear any air leaking.

I contacted Pete at SMI and we are going to have John Bleakely in Atlanta (one of there Tier 1 dealers) look at the bus while they are doing some other work next week.

I feel better now, but will feel even more secure after they lift it up and check underneath.

Thank you Bruce for the heads up and then you Jon and Joe for the trouble shooting. We now have a new addition to the checklist.

[0533]

We did the tests this morning that Jon and Joe mentioned and do not hear any air leaking.

I contacted Pete at SMI and we are going to have John Bleakely in Atlanta (one of there Tier 1 dealers) look at the bus while they are doing some other work next week.

I feel better now, but will feel even more secure after they lift it up and check underneath.

Thank you Bruce for the heads up and then you Jon and Joe for the trouble shooting. We now have a new addition to the checklist.

I would recommend that you and Pam get up at 5am each morning and go over the checklist for departure. It might be nice to have it on your PDA while you do your preflight. Check the landing gear, all wheel wells for illegal aliens etc.

I frankly would not be concerned enough to make it part of a check list, but rather remember if you hear a new hissing noise in the back of the coach, you might want to check this.

PS> You mentioned the LED lights. I cannot see mine to tell if they work or not as they were placed too close to the back of the coach for the camera to see. I will move them and see if mine work.

Bruce

[smibrake]

Members of the POG forum:

We would firstly like to thank Mr. Skiff and all of the attendees of the Sevierville, TN Rally for your overwhelming support and hospitality throughout the event. As many of you know, we were able to install seven of the Air Force One systems in the time we were there. Unfortunately, Mr. Harris's coach developed an air leak sometime after the installation described in the above posts. While it wasn't possible to have a first hand look, we were able to "borrow" the eyes of the qualified technicians at Prevost in Jacksonville, FL. Although this situation is unfortunate and most untimely, we feel it as an opportunity to demonstrate our high level of customer service and our dedication to our customers' complete satisfaction.

Based on the information given by Prevost, if any of the other coaches were apt to experience such an event, it would have already occurred after moving and/or dumping the air of the coach. This leads us to believe that any other issues would have already arisen; however, to ensure complete confidence by our customers, we will be contacting all of the members who purchased Air Force One's at the show and will be providing them with option of an inspection (using the information provided by Prevost) at our nearest qualified installation center.

Again, we want to thank all the POG members for the incredible hospitality and acceptance. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience we caused Bruce and will do everything possible to boost his confidence in Air Force One and SMI. We look forward to seeing you all soon.

Sincerely,

Peter F. Schuck, II
President

Toll free - 800-893-3763
Cell - 812-483-3507
Email- Pete@smibrake.com

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter,

You explained during the seminar that the system which includes an assembly installed on the bus, and a veturi type assembly which is installed on the toad is connected to the bus braking system, and as such uses no air unless service brakes are applied.

Please help us understand how a broken fitting could cause ANY air to be heard, and / or how the bus would have trouble airing up due to a broken fitting.

We can remove the air hoses for our service brakes and never have any air escape until those brakes were applied. I am interested in the set up for my toad, and I would like to know exactly what happened (apart from a broken fitting).

[0533]

Peter,

You explained during the seminar that the system which includes an assembly installed on the bus, and a veturi type assembly which is installed on the toad is connected to the bus braking system, and as such uses no air unless service brakes are applied.

Please help us understand how a broken fitting could cause ANY air to be heard, and / or how the bus would have trouble airing up due to a broken fitting.

We can remove the air hoses for our service brakes and never have any air escape until those brakes were applied. I am interested in the set up for my toad, and I would like to know exactly what happened (apart from a broken fitting).

Good morning Jon,

I may be able to shed some light on this question. The system may in fact be isolated from the rest of the coach, but at the moment I brought the coach back up to the ride height when getting ready to leave the campground is when we think we sheered off the fitting. The black plastic lines that came from the valve to the rear connection to the toad ran in two different locations. One black plastic air line was routed under the drive shaft and one was on top of the shaft, both found their way to the valve that was attached to the small tank. I think the noise I heard was the air being drawn out of the small tank when the fitting was torn off. What I cannot explain is the difficulty getting up to full air and when I used the brakes the air would drop quickly to about 95lbs and have a hard time getting back to 125/130 range (hovereing around 105), and they fluctuated at times, one gage higher or lower than the other. Here is the odd part, and maybe its a green banana. During the Prevost service process they could not make the dryer blow off at full pressure, when it was working fine before. More questions than answers I guess.

I was pleased to see that Peter has taken the time to share his thoughts with us, and wants to make certain that all of our installs are done correctly. It is also gratifying that Peter has contacted the folks at Jacksonville Prevost to get a handle on what went wrong and how to prevent the problem in the future.

A couple of thoughts come to mind when thinking about what Prevost found and what steps were taken. The problem was found on the evening shift by one of their best techs, "Jasen" who is a outstanding tech, a detail nut and is extremely talented found the exact location and made the fix. He did not exactly reengineer the system, just rerouted the black airlines and placed the unit in a slightly different location after he tapped out the broken fitting and put the valve back together with the tank. It was not rocket science, just common sense and the advantage of being five feet in the air looking directly at the problem.

After this experience I decided to take a better look at my toad to check the install here a little better. First thing that I have noticed is that when I start the vehicle now (2008 Saturn Vue) I no longer need to place my foot on the brake before turning the key on. I can easily get used to this new feature but have to wonder how Saturn will feel about the modification to a federally mandated requirement. Also in my engine compartment is the controller, it is hanging down at a 45 degree angle attached to a bunch of wires next to the engine block, very close to other wires that if ever need to be serviced will surely be in the way. And finally my plastic air cleaner was not reattached, was loose inside the engine compartment. I do not want to place blame on anyone here, in fact I really like the father and son team who did the install, great people. I think the problem is two fold. 1. These rallies are time limited and to make the numbers work and to satisfy the customers who want the product now, not later these guys must work from 8am to 8pm to make it happen, and this can create install issues. 2. This may be the most important issue. Engineering. It is difficult for a company like "Air Force One" to have been able to spend the time and money to do the necessary engineering that would be required to be able to make these installs in different coaches and different vehicle types. My saturn Vue is brand new and has been redesigned with very small spaces, lots of engine packed in there.

I think that a better plan would include some more detailed engineering in advance. This would of course drive up the cost and delay the release, it is always a push pull in the real world.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bruce,

I am not trying to give Peter a hard time, nor am I criticizing the product. What I am trying to do however is to get a full understanding of why you had the air system problems you describe relative to a broken fitting on a device that should never see air flow unless and until you apply the service brakes.

The loss of brake system air pressure as you describe was both predictable and understandible and was consistent with the damaged fitting. What I am still trying to grasp is how this could possibly contribute to the other issues you describe. You literally have a braking system that is not ever going to leak air unless you apply the brakes, yet now your dryer will not "spit" and you are having troubles getting up to pressure. I can't put the two together.

Anybody else out there have any ideas? I think the braking system is great, but before I contemplate installing one on the Hummer with round tires I would like to know more.

Relative to the install, I would want to do my own. It will just take time, but as I understood the system it is fairly simple.

[0533]

Bruce,

I am not trying to give Peter a hard time, nor am I criticizing the product. What I am trying to do however is to get a full understanding of why you had the air system problems you describe relative to a broken fitting on a device that should never see air flow unless and until you apply the service brakes.

The loss of brake system air pressure as you describe was both predictable and understandible and was consistent with the damaged fitting. What I am still trying to grasp is how this could possibly contribute to the other issues you describe. You literally have a braking system that is not ever going to leak air unless you apply the brakes, yet now your dryer will not "spit" and you are having troubles getting up to pressure. I can't put the two together.

Anybody else out there have any ideas? I think the braking system is great, but before I contemplate installing one on the Hummer with round tires I would like to know more.

Relative to the install, I would want to do my own. It will just take time, but as I understood the system it is fairly simple.

The fitting that snapped off and the air dryer may not be related but merely a coincidence.

The fitting between the valve and the tank snapped off and left an opening in the tank and the valve. The valve still had both black air lines attached going to the back of the coach and I believe to the bus air. The Air Force One small tank was connected to the Prevost.

Is it possible that when I applied the brakes on the coach that some air was being bleed directly into the small (AF0) tank/valve??? that was open to the outside air???? Also I do not know where the two black air lines went to and came from to be honest, put thought that one was coming from the main bus air and one was going to the toad, and possibly the valve kept the pressure up using the small tank as a source of air. Question. Both the valve and the tank were affected by the snapped fitting, which one came from the bus air system? As you know I am not nearly as knowledgable as you or most POG members, this is all from visual memory.