Propane Injection

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I'm gonna throw this out there for discussion.

Just got some info as follows

They suggest 25% propane(liquid) to 75% diesel ratio.

We have a 250 gal. diesel tank so in order to get an equivalent capacity of propane so as to run both fuel sources empty from full simultaneously, at a 25% rate we would need 65 gal. of propane. It is 4.64 pounds to the gal. for propane so it would take a 300lb tank to hold 65 gal., to cover a full load of diesel. Since we never run till empty a 150 or 200 lb tank would be sufficient. Don't know how big that is, but I'm gonna look into it.

This fella told me a gentleman in Wis. with a 12 liter. Cat went from 6.5 to 12.9 with a 25 to 75% mixture. Also a OTR trucker customer estimated he saved 14000 bucks last year in fuel costs. They also boast of 20% gains or better in HP while simultaneously lowering engine temps. by 5 to 10%.

The tank could be mounted in our P/U, our toad, in the front of the bed under the cap if too large for a bay?

Thinking out loud. Currently 250 gal fuel tank at 5mpg gets us 1250 miles. If we add an additional 65 gal of propane for a new combined fuel capacity of 315 gal it could potentially get us 3000+ miles and the propane is also less per gal., currently 2 bucks.

At 2.77 a gal. it is currently 700 bucks for 250 gal. of diesel +130 for the 65 gal. of propane=830 bucks to go say 3000 miles= 28 cents a mile for fuel.

Currently it would take 600 gal. of diesel at 5 MPG and at 2.77 a gal that comes out to 1662 dollars or 55 cents a mile. If their predictions on the increases in mileage are correct that would be a 50% decrease in fuel costs per mile.


Is this worth looking into?

He told me they were interested in setting up a DD 2-stroke, I suggested our bus as a test platform, he was receptive.

What say you?

http://www.fireemup.com/magnum

[hhoppe]

Joe: Early on in this forum we had an extensive discussion about propane injection. I found a site of an outfit that sells the gear to inject it ahead of the turbo. I'll try and search it out. They were not talking the percentage of gas to diesel you indicate. I'm interested in your findings.

http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/home.html

[Just Plain Jeff]

This has been discussed before.

What comes to mind is the following: Because the propane burns so clean, it 'gooses' the engine, and hence should only be utilized when the engine is at full throttle; and then for a short period of time. (More horsepower=More heat). The air-to-fuel mix is critical in this application and any installation should be controlled at a predetermined RPM.

What we gathered from a discussion of techs was that a badly or uncontrolled burn of a propane injection mix with diesel fuel can result in blown pistons (at least)...especially in a 2-stroke engine.

Now my memory of the postings and subsequent discussions is vacant and try it in your coach at your own risk.

Suggestion: Just for giggles, call your local DD franchisee and see what they tell you.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, This is just some random thoughts that are falling out of my head without the benefit of facts.

Propane has less BTU content per unit of volume than does diesel fuel. I have no idea what it is, but my antenna goes up when someone starts talking about fuel issues and savings. I don't know the BTU content per dollar but that is the number that will prove or disprove the allegations about MPG or cost per mile.

Depending on the engine and how the fuel delivery is controlled you can burn a wide variety of fuels and the controls adjust the amount of fuel entering the cylinder, and the timing of that event. Those two factors will influence the combustion or the rate at which the fuel burns while it produces power.

I'm not sure your mechanical engine would handle a mix as you describe without some modifications. A computer controlled engine may be able to handle it without any. For example the DDEC engines can adjust a lot of the factors for each power stroke such as the amount of fuel introduced, when it is introduced and possibly the duration of the fuel charge.

As a practical matter I would give the claims the sniff test. I have a hard time imagining a trucker filling up his diesel and then running around trying to find a bulk supplier of propane to fill his propane tank.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Thanks for the replies. I'll see if I can find the previous threads.

This is for now really a curiosity at best.

For discussion sake:

Jon many fuel stops now have propane. The trucker could be regional, or have a dedicated run and fuel at home, same place, every time. Not that uncommon. Almost all Flying-J have propane. I'll bring up the mechanical pump to them, have to tend to agree with your comments about the non-computer motor issue.

Our 8-v has 120000 on it and it will be rebuilt in the next few years anyway, if you get my drift.

I'm sure he eluded to cooler operating temps.

Any one else.

[Jerry Winchester]

If it was such a wonderful deal, with the cost of fuel as it is, wouldn't it be everwhere? It isn't because it isn't worth doing. This has been going on since I was a kid and it I've seen it rigged up on a JD 4020. Someone needs to go back to worrying about prepetual motion.

[garyde]

Cleaner fuel and used in many fleets but still an impractical fuel for Bus use I think. We had a discussion regarding bio fuels some time back and the discussion was always where to get enough fuel to make it practical. With Natural Gas it sounds more like how to integrate the Tank and the delivery system into an existing coach. I am sure there are a thousand patents out there for such things but are they practical for the leisure traveler.

[hhoppe]

I would suggest you read the two sites shown on the first two posts of this thread before offering your non experianced opinions. As far as finding propane, allmost every other RV park have a propane filling station.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Please note what the link says: Fits All Ford, Dodge and GM Turbo Diesel Engines

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Those are computer controlled engines. Joe has a mechanical engine.

In the case of the vehicles shown the propane is injected into the intake air as a vapor. Since that displaces the air used in combustion the computer to sense the combustion event is almost necessary. One issue everybody ignores in this conversation is the amount of work being performed is directly related to the BTU content of the fuel. There is no silver bullet.

My concerns about availability of propane relate more to the dance required to fill the diesel at the fuel island and then heading to another section to wait for grandpa to fill the propane on his fifth wheel.