Onwards and Upwards for Fuel $$$$$$

[Jeff Bayley]

Jon-

You make it sound like this stuff has to be refined uranium with a dozen centrifuge's working in concert to make it useable. It is true that it has to be filtered and you can't use raw waste oil but one way (so I read) that they get rid of of lot of crud and water and junk is by skimming the oil from the top down out of the collection tanks behind the restaurants. The WVO (waste vegatable oil) guys use what amounts to a small refinery that to do the balance of the filtering out but we aren't putting the fuel in the Space Shuttle so it doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to burn.
I'm a student of this, not a pro and I've just done some reading on these forums but from what I've read the dang diesel engine was designed to practically run on any kind of oil. Peanut, corn, vegetable, (Hawian Tropic ?). Hey, there's a good one. I can try to make a Hawaian Tropic bus that runs on their stuff and smells like suntan oil out the exhaust. Actually that is the case with the used VO. It smells like french fries they say. The main thing is getting the water out and using several different micron particle filters (which probabley need to be changed frequentley and you would make easy to get to) to get the crud that didn't sink to the bottom of the holding tank you sucked it out of.

I guy already rigged his diesel pusher up with the filtering system, the holding tank (for the raw oil) and a clean tank (post filtered oil) all in the bay of the bus. He can filter the oil while the RV is moving down the road. He went cross country and back without any problems. The guys that make the kits for the car conversions helped him design and install the system and I think his was the first for a diesel pusher and it pretty much worked right out of the gate. He says that he can make some suggestions and improvments for any others that want to follow.

It's not for everybody but surely that has to be more than one guy (this guy that did it already) in the country that can make it happen.

[Ray Davis]

Jeff,

I can't speak for Jon, but I am thinking the issue is how good their filtering is. I would be willing to bet a diesel pusher could indeed run on this fuel which is not perfectly filtered, perhaps cross country and back.

BUT, I'd also be willing to bet that unless it IS properly filtered, that there will be long term damage to the engine. Damage that won't be discovered in 3000-5000 miles.

When I think of all the crap that ends up in waste cooking oil, I would be really concerned about puttting that in a $15,000 engine. Obviously, I haven't read your sources, and I don't doubt that they are probably telling the truth, in that it works.

But, I think Jon is probably more right than wrong about what it takes to really clean up used cooking oil. Enough that it won't do long term damge to a DD engine, at least.

Part of the issue is there isn't any long term studies yet on this topic. It is an interesting topic, for sure. But, I can hardly imagine where I would stop on a cross-country trip to pick up 500+ gallons enroute?

Ray

ps: Hmm, I wonder what it woudl cost to simply go into Safeway or Albertsons and purchase 160 gallons of new cooking oil? Would it cost less than current diesel fuel?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We have an expert on the subject who is one of the newer members.

If you go to the public profile for Jeff and Roberta is says Jeff is doing Bio-deisel transportation? He could probably shed a little light on all this.

Jeff, looks like he is down your way too, Apollo Beach Fla. And you know the rules around here. If you come up with an idea, you own it, so get on it!

[Ray Davis]

This IS interesting, and I did a little web research on this. But, I will admit to remaining sceptical. One of the videos I watched was a guy selling a diesel add-on, which only had what amounted to be an auto-standard oil filter built in.

I can't believe that is enough to filter this stuff, unless perhaps you are purchasing bio-diesel from a company that has already refined it. I'll be interrested to hear how it works out for you Jeff, when you rebuild that Angola, and put in the oil conversion unit!!

[Jeff Bayley]

Ray-

Speaking of the Angola, there you are. My engine blew up WITHOUT any funny business and yes I was thinking about converting that one but what I'm going to do instead is convert my rolling showroom bus which is a cheapo Spartan chassis with a front control Cat. I have a three bays in a row which are empty from something funky they last owner had in their (a house A/C unit that was all rusted. Those bays are in the front and that is the perfect spot for the rolling refinery and extra holding tanks for the oil. That engine is much less costly should anything go wrong and that vehicle is also one that I'm more inclined to hire a driver for to use it more often all over the country and fly in to meet up with it. I'll use that as my test bed.

Regarding picking up 500 gallons of fuel, remember that part of my idea is to mount everthing in the bed of a pick up truck which would double as your toad and your chase vehicle for getting around to collect your oil. Going here and there with the bus to pick up the oil in unfamiliar towns is a buzz killer for me but getting around in the pick up for the same task seems tollerable.

Ok, here's THE site for the guy that did it in his pusher motor home and he is a member on Frybrid.com also. For those of you who didn't bother with the other URL's I put, this is the one to check and not skip.

http://www.liquidsolarpower.com/

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You can't equate Bio-diesel with waste vegetable oil.

If you are looking for cheap fuel why not just forget waste vegetable oil and go around collecting drain oil. Filter it a little bit and dump it in your fuel tank in whatever ratio turns you on.

The use of recycled anything, whether it is vegetable oils, or drain oil requires that you remove the contaminents. That is why renderers have what appears to be mini-refineries. A lot of the stuff they remove can harm your fuel delivery system or the engine. Like water. Or cleaning solvents. Or solids like flour. Or even bigger common things like food scraps. Or towels, silverware, salt shakers, etc. If you are that guy driving the Volkswagen Rabbit and you can select the best stuff available out of the gallons of the stuff that is thrown out you are talking about something simple. If the guy gets 30 MPG, and he only needs about 10 gallons at a time he can be really fussy.

Pull up to the grease bin in your Prevost and try to find 200 gallons of stuff and you will literally be scraping the bottom of the barrel, unless you have the time to grub the best 10 gallons from 20 restaurants every time you fill up.

If that is the case, get a national Jiffy Lube directory and get their used drain oil. It will still require a lot of filtering, and may still do a lot of damage to your engine and fuel delivery system, but it will be easier to deal with in large quantities than vegetable oils.

Bio-diesel is a pure, clean product intended for use in your engine. But ironically it is not likely to be cheaper than good old #2 diesel in terms of cost per mile.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Don't forget the tax man. You are not supposed to use fuel in highway vehicles that has not been taxed.

If the media hears of you and your luxury coach collecting and using restaurant oil and does a feature news prog. on you and the government sees it, your goose is cooked

[dale farley]

When I looked into producing biodiesel in early 2006, I was looking at a rather elaborate system which included plastic tanks, pumps, and filters. Lye was the key ingredient in processing the vegetable oil into biodiesel. Properly processed biodiesel is supposed to be cleaner, safer, and better for the engine than regular diesel, but there are several hazzards involved in the process.

A complete system seems to cost from $1,500 to $10,000 according to the capacity you want to produce. At that time, there were several systems being sold on eBay, but I don't see any at this time.

[garyde]

Jeff. I have to think that no matter what solution one would come up with, this is still a fringe fuel . Aside from how your Detroit Deisel might handle it (not including the new Diesel engines being produced for 2009 ), You still have to have a reliable resource when and where you need it. How would this product effect a generator or a Webasto heater?
If one is simply attempting to save money, I would determine how much $$ you would actually save, and invest in Oil futures or Corn futures to guarentee a fixed price.
As far as taking personal responsibility for cleaning up the Air, Cut back whereever possible on mileage traveled per year. Plant some trees! Recycle Cans, etc., Convert to flourescent lamps. Cut down on all paper products.

[Jeff Bayley]

Gary-

For the generator and webasco or Aqua Hot you still use your regular diesel. You don't put the alternative fuel into the main tank or change any of that. You install an aux. tank for the waste veg. oil. You start out running on the regular diesel because the veg. oil has to be warmed up (using it's own mini heater) to thin out the viscosity of it so it will flow. Then, before you shut down, you switch back to regular diesel again to clear the lines (you control all this from the dash with a couple of switches that run solinoids that make the switch).

The biggest problem would be if your engine died or you forgot to switch back and clear the lines of the thick stuff and the stuff cooled and all your lines were full of room temperature oil that wouldn't flow. That would be a real mess to fix and clear the lines, injectors etc.

Jon brings up a good point about the volume of fuel. I think you could pick up 50-75 gallons at a time easily. Mango mike commented that he produces 100 gallons a week I recall just as one example plus there are forums that tell you where cleaner oil is available in volume nationwide. The point is that if you don't have the waste oil your not out of business and you go back to running the way your used to. Your gen and other aux items like the aqua hot or webasco don't get affected unless you convert those too. I think the generator lends itself to conversion more than the webasco but I don't think I would try converting the generator until I saw the system working well on the main engine.

Did anyone look at that link I posted on the last post with the guy that converted his pusher diesel ?