A funny thing happened to me on the way to the DMV

Well, not exactly on the way to but more like on the way out.
When I arrived to register Olivia, I came with a 2007 title in my hands.
When I left the DMV, it was with a copy of a title application for a 2005 vehicle!
The lady behind the counter told me that my VIN number was for a 2005 vehicle and would not accept the fact that my original, dealer supplied title showed 2007.
Now, it is correct that it is a 2005 shell but it was not completed and titled until 2007.
Do I have any ground to stand on fighting the DMV on this?
Does it matter?
I am afraid the value of our coach has just been knocked down a couple of notches because of this.
Cheers,
Ronald

I know that each state can treat it as you found out,I think that Teschner should have never issued a MSO later than 2006 with a 2005 shell.I think the only way to make it a 2007 is to title it in another state like Montana,I know that they don't care.This discussion of shell verses coach year has been discussed many times here and the converter has a lot of latitude,I know of a 2003 Vantari that was sold as a 2007.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Hiemann

Well, not exactly on the way to but more like on the way out....
Do I have any ground to stand on fighting the DMV on this?
Does it matter?
I am afraid the value of our coach has just been knocked down a couple of notches because of this.
Cheers,
Ronald

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Taking on the DMV is a no-win proposition. They hold all the power and have unlimited time and money on their side of the equation.

If it is that important to you, follow Jack's advice and title the bus in a more "forgiving" state. However, if you title it as a 2005 in your home state, it may be much more difficult to register it as a 2007 elsewhere.

Good luck...

Get back to the DWV and cancel the registration you just did as there is a mistake. Tell the DMV you're going after legal counsel to rectify this issue.

Request a dup MSO from Teschner and rerun the title in a friendly state as Jack says. There is no way your taking the hit on this probably a 6 figure foo-pa.

Take (BoatersAl) and (jack14r) advice and talk to somebody in main office of the DMV .

Alek

Ronald,

You could have the same problem in Montana. I registered my first Prevost, a 97 Marathon, in Montana and they refused to accept the title as a 97 and insisted it was a 1996. Even with Marathons help, I couldn't make any progress. The only thing they would would accept was a vehicle inspection by law enforcement and I was able to do that, confirming it was titled a 97 through the DMV. Montana then accepted the inspection. I canceled the Montana registration a short time later when I learned that many states were buying the Montana registration date base and coming after people domiciled in their home state.

So, unless your state will accept a vehicle inspection confirming the VIN number matches your original paperwork, you may have just taken a two model year hit.

Ronald,
I do not think you have taken a hit like you might think. By definition, the business of conversions consists of models from one year being used in subsequent years. If the facts could be ascertained, I believe there are many coaches on the road that have a two year differential. The value of the coqach does not come from the state DMV but from the year of title from the converter. I admit that you should have been made aware of the differential when you purchased the coach. The realization of whether or not a "hit" exists will be determined whenever you sell the coach and there are many factors in your favor to assist your value....the date of construction and first dates of delivery. In my situation, I have a September of '98 model shell and a late December of '98 year of title when it was delivered(sort of the reverse of your situation). My shell was used for '99 year deliveries. Normally, If I would have a '98 year of title, it could have been a '97 year of construction. I can think of one twin slide coach of our group right now that is a two year differential and no one has ever thought anything of it in all of the conversations we have had about the coach. You have a great coach.
Pres

With all due respect to the Pres., none of that matters when it comes time to sell. He will be selling an 05 instead of an 07 and the buyer won't care about any explanation when it all comes down to money. Maybe Ken or Steve will jump in here from a coach sales perspective, but a 2 year shift in title year would have me spending less. Of course if I had the Pres's money, it would be a non issue!:p

Morning Ronald - I have a couple of terminology questions - You said you had a 2007 "title" - Has the coach been previously titled in another state, or are you referring to the MSO, manufacturers statement of origin, issued by Teschner? Second, have you already completed the "title application" while at the DMV ? If it has been "titled" in Florida, as a 2005, I'm not sure if there is any way to have it reversed, but I am going to be at our local DMV office tomorrow to pick up some completed title work, and I will ask for help ( beg for mercy ). I'm afraid I have to side with Truk, rather than Pres, on the value issue. I have a 1996 Marathon that was supposed to be titled as a 1998, according to the Marathon MSO, but was originally titled from the Prevost MSO. NOBODY is buying my explanation, and offering me '98 prices for it!

Give me a call, or stop by,

Ken

This issue with the year of the coach is going to be around as long as a new shell of a certain year (according to the Prevost VIN) is completed and titled in a subsequent year by the converter.

I remember a screaming match between a buyer and the seller of a coach when the new owner found his DMV was going by the Prevost model year and not the converter model year. It got ugly and there were words like "sue", "lawyer", "damages", etc. being thrown around. Ken is on the front lines and knows some buyers are cognizant of how some coaches are registered as a model year that might be two or more years different than the chassis model year. Others are not and when they find out after the fact that their 2006 pride and joy is recognized by Prevost as a 2002 they go crazy.

We have joked and played with people's heads about the cost to join POG and the reality is the $100 is one of the best investments a potential buyer can possibly make. I am not suggesting a coach registered as a 2006 on a 2002 or 3 chassis is worth less, but I am suggesting potential buyers are better equipped to make good informed decisions if they join POG and tap into the collected knowledge before they buy a coach and then find out the hard way they don't even know what they don't know.

Here is my free advice to Ronald.......You can let this gnaw at you and rob you of the joy of owning such a fine coach or you can accept the fact your converter took some time to create the motorhome you have. The only time the length of time in service, the chassis model year, and the year on the title or registration counts is if you intend to flip the coach and buy another. At that point you have to accept the fact knowing buyers are going to be more interested in the coach's value to them than an arbitrary birth date. The people who are never satisfied unless they beat the seller into submission on the price will use any excuse, including the model year, so if it is not the age of the coach that gets them to offer low ball prices it will be the fact there is some obscure defect thaey can use to try to "steal" the coach.

Don't let this bother you. It is what it is and unless you now don't see the value in what you paid you still have a coach you can enjoy immensely.

Just to throw another log in the fire on this thread, Ronald. What did the insurance company have to say about the bus insurance ? What year are you paying premiums on? If you leave this as is and enjoy your bus (Jon's point) maybe this is the time to be paying insurance on the year the DMV says.

Another point with Jon and Truk with all there buried dollars in coffee cans around the yard........this is not an issue as both being "self insured".

I always get this confused as the insurance company will write the policy for ..agreed value or depreciated value and give the bus owner the option. Of course policy premiums are based on the owners decision and the year of the bus.

Ron,When your coach was on ebay I asked the seller for the vin number because I knew that that coach and the red one had been for sale for a number of years,I think that I first remember your coach for sale in 2006 and it might have been listed as a 2006 at that time,I was almost sure that the shell was not newer than a 2005 but I was aware that it had 365 tires which meant that it was at least a 2004 or newer shell.The vin number confirmed that it is a 2005 shell and in most buyers opinion that understand our conversions it really is a 2006 conversion.A 2004 Liberty was sold recently which has a 2004 shell,I would think that most buyers would think that they are getting something extra in this case and I would think so also.With almost all converters gone except for a couple the values of the orphan coaches are what the market has decided they are worth.

These vehicle are built as an incomplete vehicle by Prevost. The conversion company then completes the vehicle, and issues the Title as a manufacturer. We have had success in California getting the year changed with a statement of facts, and an inspection. Your coach should have 2-placards, one from Prevost that will say that it is an incomplete vehicle, and a second from Techner showing the completion of the vehicle and model year. Every state is different in how they operate their DMV. I would recommend finding an independent Title company that handles vehicle registration in your state. They should be able to help you, and let you know if this will be possible in your home State. This is also a common problem that many other motorhomes have, including popular Class C models that are built on a incomplete van type chassis. Most DMV offices have a Vin decoder built into their computer systems, that will spell out the year based on the Vin number. They need to override this feature on these types of vehicles. Please feel free to call us if we can be of assistance (800) 460-7989.

Wow!
Did I ever get beat up. I am going to go lick my wounds. I lost this one I really have to admit!
I was trying to encourage Ronald but did not do a good enough job. I stand corrected.
I do agree in retrospect that the buyer will be very tough on any negotiations....that is a great, great point. (2005 versus 2007 is huge under these thought processes).
It would be interesting to me to know if the sellers of the coach advertised the coach as being a 2006 and then later changed the coach to a 2007 ?
I am not a lawyer but do know that fraud is defined as the intential omission of a material fact....an obvious intent to deceive.
Is a motor coach like a house where caveat emptor "let the buyer beware" prevails? Yet, even on a house in Texas you have to sign a statement that you are not aware of material defects, etc.
Pres

Hi Ken, thanks for your response. The coach was previously titled in Wisconsin to one of the silent partners of the now defunct Teschner. The Ohio dealer (Beannies) flipped the title, put it in his name and I got an Ohio title from him. I do have copies of all of them. Prevost confirmed the VIN belongs to a 2005 shell and the plate confirms this, too. The Teschner plate states 09/2006. I was shown a 2007 title and did not see a reason for questioning this. Well, I have to go to the main office of the DMV for other reasons and will try to talk to somebody about this. It will be an interesting conversation.

Ronald,


We ran into the same dilemma with our 1984 Airstream 270 Classic Class A motorhome.
There are two VIN's, one is from Chevrolet for P-30 454 equpped chassis, and the other is from Airstream. Both are 17 digits long, with the 10th digit indicating year. In our case, Colorado insisted on using the 10th digit "B" indicating 1983 fropm the chassis, instead of a "C" on the Airstream VIN for 1984.. Well, it did work out using the 1983 VIN let us in on being able to get "Classic Colloector plates" instead of regular plates. At the time, 1983 was 26 years from year 2009. This meant the coach was over 25 years old and we were eligible for different permanent plates.. This also meant, we could do a one-time emissions test, and got a 5 year paid up front, plate stickers. So, in the end, for us it worked out.
For our bus, its a 1992 shell, and a 1992 conversion, so we lucked out there with no headache. Good luck. Be sure to tell us your story once you emerge from the main office, hopefully in one piece. Take chair and whip, you may need it.

Steve is 'spot on' in his acessment of your situstion. The key element for you will be wether your coach was ever previously titled.
I hate to say, but when you're spending a small fortune on something with a title, you should use as much caution as buying something with a deed.
It's much easier to sort out any issues, prior to, rather than after.

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Originally Posted by jack14r

Ron,When your coach was on ebay I asked the seller for the vin number because I knew that that coach and the red one had been for sale for a number of years,I think that I first remember your coach for sale in 2006 and it might have been listed as a 2006 at that time,I was almost sure that the shell was not newer than a 2005 but I was aware that it had 365 tires which meant that it was at least a 2004 or newer shell.The vin number confirmed that it is a 2005 shell and in most buyers opinion that understand our conversions it really is a 2006 conversion.A 2004 Liberty was sold recently which has a 2004 shell,I would think that most buyers would think that they are getting something extra in this case and I would think so also.With almost all converters gone except for a couple the values of the orphan coaches are what the market has decided they are worth.

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That 04-04 was me and, in my mind, I priced it in comparison to an '05 Marathon that I knew had recently sold because it's shell was also an '04.

After the shock wore of, I visited the main office of the NH DMV in Concord, NH.
Much to my surprise, very little pleading was required. I presented copies of the previous 2 titles (WI and OH, both documenting 2007) and after the clerk made a call to the titling office, I was instructed to return the 2005 title which had just been mailed to me, to replace it with a 2007 title. I did not waste any time at all and should have my new 2007 title in hand in a few days. As always, thanks for all comments!
Cheers,
Ronald
En route to Toronto for the holidays...

We are pleased with your success and I'm thinking....margaritas and nachos

Timing is everything

Yes it is, if your having margaritas and nachos, It's how quick you can get to that bottle of Tums!