Antifreeze

I'm wondering what type of antifreeze most others are using? I changed to the Extended Life in my last bus, but haven't decided if I will in this one. If I remember correctly, the advantage to the Extended was that you don't have to check with the strips, use blank filters and only add the extender after 3 years.

Gil, have you had to do anything extra. It should be about time for you to add the mid-term extender to yours.

Dale, I deal with Stewart & Stevenson in Houston. They are potentially the largest Detroit / Allison dealer /distributor in the US. They have an antifreeze for Detroit Diesels they recommend called Power Cool regular 50/50 pre mix. It is red and I am very pleased with it. It also has an extended life version. I recommend you contact them. They are the pros at this stuff.
Pres

Thanks Regan, I think I used some of that in my last bus before I changed to the Extended Life.

Dale, if you go the ELC route I recommend the coolant sold by Detroit, I would also not recommend the product sold by CAT. I forgot the formula, but know the one sold by CAT may not be good for some non-engine components that have coolant running through them.

This coolant issue is a half full glass or half empty glass situation. Several years ago on POG this issue came up with much discussion. Several were going to extended life coolant and gave the process of filling and draining the system many times to flush the old coolant out. At that time I went to W. W. Wiliams, a large Detroit Diesel dealer and asked their thoughts on which coolant to use. With the several people I spoke with the unanimous choice was regular Detroit Diesel Power Cool not the extended life coolant. Power Cool contains the necessary additives to prevent cavitation although the SCA needs to be checked after a period of time. Their conclusion was if it came with regular coolant continue to use it if it came with extended life continue to use it. As for me, I'm staying with the regular coolant which is what was in it originally.

I agree with Denny. I have the Power Cool in our Bus.

When I changed before, I called the engineers at the World Office for Detroit Diesel, and they told me if an Antifreeze met the DD specifications it shouldn't make a difference which one we use. Changing to an Extended Life is definitely a process in itself. I flushed mine 6 times before I got all the old antifreeze out and added the EC-1. I think I will probably just stick with the original this time. Is DD the only place you can get Power Cool?

Dale. I believe Power Cool is a Detroil Diesel product.

I wonder if the process to go back to standard coolant from ELC is the same as going from standard to ELC?

Just curious,

Gil, Since the main concern was mixing of the two different fluids, I assume you would have to go through the same process to return to regular antifreeze. From what I understand, dealers don't flush 5 or 6 times like I did when I changed to ELC. I did it because I could still see the old antifreeze in it until I got to about the # 4 flush. Number 5 looked clear, but I did 6 just to be sure. It took me several hours to make the change because I was filling, driving, draining for 6 cycles including the Webasto. When I finished, I was confident that I had a clean system.

When I changed to ECL, the main DD office told me that they were not aware of any DD dealers that were telling their customers that they shouldn't be using EC-1 (ECL) in there engines and they were not aware of any damage attributed to the use of the ECL. I am pretty sure if I had ECL in my engine, I wouldn't be going back to regular. To me the main advantages of the ECL is that you don't have to change it as often and you don't have to constantly check the balance with the strips. I would "think" there are more engines that are running with their Power Cool out of balance than there are those being damaged by running a quality ELC. DD told me if it meets the 7SE298 standard, it should be safe for the DD Series 60 engine.

I use the regular green old style and if it does not have DD on it that's OK just be sure its a low silicon type and it will be on the jug somewhere.

IMO the industry has confounded and confused the issue while lining their pockets with the extended life. And the orange and the blue or whatever ridiculous colors they have added to the field. I never did it. Cat has 2 different additive to their extended brew. One is an activator one is a extender. I still have those 2 bottles on a shelf somewhere never went that way.

So what if U need to drain it every 3 or 4 years the process is 1/5 the time needed to change over like Dale described.

DD includes the charge right in the product but U do not HAVE to use DD brand antifreeze . The additive can be purchased and added to any Green low silicon mix. U can keep it that way going forward with coolant filters with differing charge rates based on what a test strip tells U.

Another thing. IMO 50/50 mix right out of the bottle in any form is not something I never buy. I will add water from the tap instead of paying the price of antifreeze for it. amazing they can even sell that stuff and get the same money for it as 100% antifreeze.

Here is what I used in all my engines Cat DD Mack Cummins . Added this to off the shelf low silicon regular green.


Attachment 12872

Attachment 12873


On a service that Im replacing old it usually requires 10 or 12 bottles to get the mix correct. Then when doing oil changes test strip the coolant and replace the coolant filter with the correct corresponding charge that the test strips indicated. The filters come with 2 units charge or 4 units or 6 units ect ect.

Orange antifreeze ....................sheesh come on purple .......... really

I need to find a local source for whatever I'm going to use. MY closest DD dealer is about 70 miles away. I didn't know the filters actually came with different charges.

Detroit Diesel Power Cool is exactly the same (and made by Peak Products) as Fleet Charge.
The "Power Cool Plus" which is Detroit's extended life coolant, is the same as and made for DD by Peak as well, named Final Charge.
These can both be obtained by local Ryder/Fleet Products or Fleet Pride distributors, as well as through a lot of Napa stores. If the Napa doesn't have either, they can order it for you and don't charge for the freight if you do in-store pickup. Hope this helps.

Thanks Ben. That is helpful.

Dale,

Take a look at this thread http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/...hlight=coolant

I don't know where the reference document is, but it was written by an expert. Just because it's okay for your engine doesn't make it okay for everything else using the coolant.

Gil,

I have read several articles on the internet today (of course if its on the internet, it has to be true) and there seems to be a large camp on each side of the issue. I went to a local trucking this morning (Ward International) to get a filter, and I asked about antifreeze. They said they have pretty much gone exclusively to Fleetrite ECL. They use a pump to expedite the flushing of the system when changing from regular to ECL. At this time, I still plan to go with the regular.

Dale,
I went with replacing the regular with extended life a year ago. As I didn't have the place to flush the old out I attempted to have it done. Without naming the first firm where I ATTEMPTED to have it done (current major sponsor) I will say I refused to pay them for their attempt. I was paying by the hour, directing the mechanic on how I wanted it done without a lot of success. It got late, I got tired of dancing, had them button it up and took it to Stuart Stevenson where it was done under my supervision and to my satisfaction. If I knew the aggravation I would have to go through I would have passed.
Having said all this I would suggest that if you are as particular as I am and you want the advantage of the extended life do it yourself as you did on your last bus or make life simple and replace what you have with similar. MY TWO CENTS

Patrick, I agree 100%.

DD told me to use their product, But they also recommend Shell zone they also said that shell makes power cool for DD.
always remember DD uses the lowest bidder, they change once a year to get the lowest bidder to make their products.
SEA YA

Another question about quantities. When I changed my antifreeze in the last bus, (99 CC), I drained everything I could from every port in the bus. I also drained the Wabasto and the dash heat system. I got a total of 18 gallons from the system. I see the Detroit maintenance manual says the capacity is 24 gallons. Has anyone been able to drain that much antifreeze out or put that much in their system?

Since I had no local source for Power Cool, I purchased 12 gallons (concentrated) at W W Williams in Montgomery. No, I didn't drive to Montgomery just to get the antifreeze, I was already there for other reasons. The Prevost Maintenance manual says the bus holds 24 gallons, so I should be safe although I don't think it will take that much. The manager at Williams said Power Cool Plus(PCP) is all they stock and all they have used now for 8 years. He said they use it in all DD applications including RV's and have never had a problem of any kind. They had 260 gallons in stock. Similar ELC's were about $26 a gallon at my local auto stores, so I feel good that I got the original PCP for $17 a gallon. Now if I just had someone to flush the system multiple times in preparation for the switch over!

I started draining/flushing my antifreeze today so I can replace with Power Cool Plus Extended Life. Since I am not really sure how the Aqua Hot works, I am wondering if I need to do anything special to drain it. My understanding is that it has a closed system with its own antifreeze, but does the engine antifreeze also run through some part of it?

Some AH also have an engine coolant loop. Engine coolant does not run to the inside heat exchangers. So, very little engine coolant is actually in the AH. It heats the domestic water and the AH can preheat the engine.

Dale Let me try to explain the exchangers.

There R 2 . I is an internal exchanger the loop for the engine and it is inside the boiler. If U R driving the 60series water pump is circulating engine antifreeze weather U want or not it is constant. It transfers heat to the boiler water that in turn transfers heat to the loop for the domestic hot water that is a 1/2 in copper line that is wrapped tightly around the outside of the boiler tank.

If U R parked and want to preheat the engine U have to reverse the heat transfer by heating the boiler with the electric element or with the burner and also turn on the seporate switch for the engine loop. That turns on a 4th circulating pump in the aquahot for circulating that loop in this mode and instead of the engine loop heating the boiler water the boiler water heats the engine loop instead. Pretty clever they utilize heat transfer both ways for this aspect weather U r driving or parked.

That's how the exchangers work. On a side note.


There R also a pair of slowly rotating paddles inside the boiler that keeps the heated water moving around. If it didnt the boiler water close to the boiler wall would cool down way quicker than the core and the paddles help the unit to be way more efficient with them.

According to their tech if these paddles were not slowly circulating the heated boiler water the system works vey very poorly it is a quite important piece of the puzzle.

Thanks Gil and Joe. I am assuming most of it will drain and be flushed during the 5 flushes I intend to do on the system.

Dale, I wouldn't it be easy enough to disconnect the hoses at the engine for dash heat and the AH and run clean water through them? Once flushed connect the hose returning to the engine and fill the line and then reattach the other hose for each?

Gil,

I took the hose off yesterday and energized the 24 volt servo to drain the dash heater. I will do that each time I fill and drain the system. Since I couldn't talk Paulette into getting in that drawer behind the front bumper, I removed it by taking out the screws.

I came across this from the Peak antifreeze final charge- Too good to be true- no flushing- converts old to extended. anybody have this experience? I have read many posts most say change regular coolant every two years, a few will or have flushed to then put in EC-1 compliant.

Q: My truck is using a conventional coolant, and I would like to change to FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Coolant/Antifreeze. How do I convert my truck?A: With the FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Extended Life Coolant Fleet Conversion Program, you can convert a truck using conventional or fully formulated coolants to FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Coolant/Antifreeze without having to drain, flush and refill the cooling system. At the center of this program is FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Converter. FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Converter is formulated with a special blend of FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Coolant/Antifreeze’s patented Organic Acid Technology (OAT) inhibitors with Contamination Tolerant Additives. A one-time dose of FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Converter is specifically formulated to convert properly maintained cooling systems using conventional or fully formulated coolants meeting ASTM D-4985, ASTM D-6210 or TMC RP-329 to FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Coolant/Antifreeze’s patented formula.

I would call the manufacture of Final Charge Global ... a place to start. In my experience you do not mix different types / brands and always change coolant filter once a year.
AL

OWI in Illinois makes both Final Charge Global and DD power cool. Let's just say they are cousin's. Not that I have family that works there (wink,wink) or anything like that.

i use this one.

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/...id=18273&stc=1

I ran Power Cool Extended Lift Coolant in my last bus (2005 Royale) and I'm running the same in my current bus. Prevost did the conversion on both. Multiple flushes with running the engine between flushes. If I'm not near Prevost or a Detroit Diesel dealer, I use Final Charge (buy it at O'Reilly's) to top it off. Just make sure you are adding "OAT". Organic Acid Technology coolant once you are on the Extended Life Coolant. Power Cool ELC is OAT and so is Final Charge. Mixing OAT and traditional coolant is a worse idea than killing the XL Pipeline........

Prevost Wintergarden flushed ours last year after the show. They used Prime Conventional Green by Prestone.http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/...id=18274&stc=1