inverter repair-again

I want some opinions, should Buddy Gregg make this inverter good?
The facts are this: In sept of 08 I had the inverter repaired to the tune of about $1100 bucks, it went bad after running the AC on the inverter. Buddy Gregg said there was no way this caused the problem.
I did not try to run off the inverter again untill talking with several owners that do with out causing problems.
Then on the last trip I ran the AC and after about 3 hours the AC quit and the inverter has a problem. I now am going back to BG in Knoxville to have q repair made. How strong a case do I have to get them to stand behind this?

Bill what make inverter is it? How big is it? Was any other loads on it?

I know of another 2002 Royal with the exact same issue. His has 1 of the 2 2500watt inverters set up to run 1 air.

This is what spurred my recent thread inquiring about inverter set-ups.

Bill,

Electrical problems can be a very touchy issue. I have never heard of a electrical part that could be returned once you have it installed or for that matter have left the store and opened the box. There are just to many operator errors that can not be traced.

ps, good luck and let us know how you come out.

before you do anything you might want to verify the gauge of the all the leads to and from the inverter both a/c and d/c along with the length of the run against the manufacturers spec.

I have recently moved a cruise air over to a 2500 watt inverter successfully. The inverter is forward second bay and the batteries are way back by the chassis batteries. The converter used 2 BIG (ott something:o) cables paralleled to carry the load and reduce the voltage drop.

Bill I can hook you up with the 2002 you two can compare notes.

If the original design intended for the A/C unit to run off of the Inverters, and it has recently stopped working, and the work was to have repaired that componant, then it should be replaced. Dale is correct on electronics, they are not returnable but you do need to find out what is happening.

Bill, If you end up having to replace this one, you may want to check on a new one. I bought a new 2500 watt Xantrex last September for $946 including shipping to my house. It took about an hour to install.

Bill,

This is not a vote of confidence in BG or any converter or service facility. I doubt if the AC had anything to do with a failed inverter, nor do I think BG needs to stand behind the repairs. Unless.......

If I understand you correctly the inverter failed. You were running the AC from it when that happened.

The inverter was repaired, and until you ran the AC from it again it worked.

What is absent in your description is the description of the inverter. Please give us the make, model and rating.

An AC unit can draw almost 40 amps on start up, and a sustained 13 to 15 amps when running (4800 watts and 1560 to 1800 watts respectively). Those are big loads. That means the inverter is going to be working hard and drawing a lot of power. If the fan was not previously replaced, and it turns out the fan has failed, or is intermittent the heat generated cannot be dispersed and it is possible internal components can overheat and fail.

So, before any work is done on the inverter, I would check the fan. If it turns out it is not working, or can be shown to be intermittent then you may have a reason to ask BG to stand behind the repair.

If the inverter that carries the AC unit has other loads such as a refrigerator, or an outlet or whatever you may wish to calculate just how much work the inverter was doing. You may find the problem is as simple as a tripped circuit breaker on the inverter due to excessive loads or an inverter too small for the job. I would feel comfortable with a 3500 or 4000 watt inverter, less comfortable if the inverter was of less capacity.

Thanks for all the replies. The inverter is a xantrex sw2500 and I have been told that if I replace it with a different model the remote also would need tobe replaced.
The refrigerator runs on this same inverter and that is about all that was being used at the time of failure, which time we were driving the bus.
The first failure the inverter went out and no power came through the inverter from the gen, this time we have power but not correct voltage while inverting.
The coach is set up with a dash rocker to use either the front or center AC. Both failures were while using the front AC.
I feel BG should stand behind repairs as I was using the inverter in the manner thy told me to.

Bill IMHO Royal could be a culprit here.

Again IMO a fridge and an A/C is too much for a 2500w inverter.

If you decide to upgrade to a larger inverter you will need to verify the gauge of the leads for it and most probably will have to replace all the existing ones with larger to safely carry the larger loads. For that matter I am still not completely convinced that the existing leads are big enough to begin with and could also be your problem.

How far are the inverters from the batteries?

It also does not make sense that they would put the two biggest draws while on inverters, the fridge and the a/c, on the same inverter. If the wiring checks out to be in spec you might try moving either the fridge or the a/c to the other inverter separating them.

My refrigerator only draws about 2-2.4amps while running, but it spikes 19-21 amps on startup. That could cause a problem if the AC was already running and the fridge kicks on.

Bill,

As I pointed out previously the other loads combined with the AC may be pushing the inverter to its limit. I suspect the inverter is overloaded. My refrigerator combined with the current draw from one of my AC units would put the inverter at the limit.

I will not go so far as to suggest the inverter was damaged by the loads, but the inverter was being asked to operate at vitually 100% capacity. Unfortunately I do not know how Royale wired the inverter. On my coach I have the same inverters with separate leads for power input, one for the charging circuit, and one for the pass through power. I have a third set of wires for power back to the isolated inverter circuits in my 120 Volt AC panel. The supply leads are on a dedicated 50 amp circuit breaker. All supply and output leads are #10 wires. My point is that I could probably step my 2500 watt inverters up to 3500 watt without rewiring the coach.

If yours are similarly wired you probably could make a change without pulling new wires. I know my remotes are common to several inverters so I could likely make the inverter change and retain the remotes. This is something you need to investigate to see what your options are.

The two failures you have had are unrelated. One is a failure that prevented you from by-passing any power, and the current failure seems to be a failure only affecting the voltage of the inverter output, but not affecting pass through voltage (if I am reading your post correctly). I think it is just coincidence.

I don't know your skill levels so be careful if you do what follows. If I recall the Royale inverters are accessible. If I had the problems you describe I would access the inverters, and switch out the wires so you are literally reversing the workloads of the two inverters. Then I would run the AC and see if the other inverter pukes. It may mean you just had two coincidental problems, unrelated to inverter loading. I suspect however the inverter is being pushed too hard. If the second inverter also fails you know the answer.

I would be very interested in hearing the thought process that lead to that original design.

Dale I'm also thinking eventually both compressors, fridge and a/c, will try to start simultaneously, potentially causing the failure.

Another possibility is the front AC has a compressor issue and the start voltage is just too high for the small inverter. Does the same thing happen if you select the mid AC instead of the front?

What type A/C's are on the Royal, roof or cruisair? My cruisairs run at 19 amps and start-up is obviously higher, so a 2500 watt inverter wouldn't stand a chance running any of mine.

Thread drift here......Tom, 19 Amps? those puppies are either putting out some serious cold air or something is wrong.

I have been driving all afternoon so the delay.
The inverters are located in the same compartment as the batteries thus only short wires connect. I wondered about why the fridge was on the same inverter as the front AC. There is an electrical panel that all the different circuits hook up to coming from the inverters and so I changed the fridge to the other inverter.

We have a new small lap top and it is not easy to type on so if some words dont look right just guess at them!

I have only owned the coach since May 08 and still have a lot to learn.

When the first inverter went out and I had no power for the fridge I cannot understand why Buddy Gregg folks did not tell me I could switch to the other inverter and the fridge would work, after all that is very important when you have it full of food.

The one thing that I have learned is to know as much as possible about these coaches and I will keep to listening to yall.

I hope to be in Knowville on wed and maybe get some answers. I dont think I want to try the AC on the other inverter and take a chance on damaging it. Maybe better to use the gen.

I added to my post that I will keep listening to yall and hope to keep learning about this coach.

Jon Boy, I knew that would get your attention, but it is what it is, 19 amps consistently. With two on one leg, we have to very careful on power management. I have checked all three A/C's freon, made sure the condensers and evaporator coils are clean and they work great, but really suck the juice.
The cruisairs in my Marathon were also power hogs, but I don't remember the numbers.

Bill a few things come to mind. I would make a list of exactly what things are on what inverters.

Whatever inverter you put the fridge on I would then only add what I knew could not overload it no matter what.

I would put everything else on the other inverter including the roof air.

Being a non OTR A/C I think the option of being able to run 1 air on inverter is significant. I recently test drove a 2000 Marathon in 90 degrees with dash air going + 1 cruise air and with the bedroom door closed it was able to get that bus too cold.

Would I option out a coach like that for death valley certainly not but IMO you will encounter situations often enough where it will preform marvelously.

You have to surrender to the notion that even without running an a/c off inverters you could very easily overload 1 or both of the smaller 2500 w units.

Before I put my a/c on our 2500 I had to manage power. I could not run the microwave with the toaster with the curling iron. I learned to watch my meter and shut things off to use others.

So if the other inverter has everything else and the a/c, for those appliances that only require intermittent power, either run the gen for those or get in the habit of shutting down the a/c to use other accessories while on inverters.

When you learn what is on what inverter you need to familiarize how many amps each accessory draws too.

I know my air draws 13 amp I have a u-line ice maker taking another 2 or 3.

16 amp is about 1900watts. I consider that MAX continuous load for our 2500. Do not expect to run an inverter and get 100% efficiency it will only be around 80% efficient. Even running it there will get things cooking if you get my drift.

If you can replace 1 inverter with a larger one it will help with the power conservation but weather that expense is worth its added convenience is up to you. You will still have to manage power.

You guys with the 2 4000's I'm jellous as hell

Bill, you are already ahead of the curve because you have evidently been playing with electric and know how your inverter circuits are set up. That means you understand how a failed inverter will not by-pass electric on your coach, and how you can juggle things around to compensate for a failed invererter.

Joe's observations are correct, but i suspect you also probably knew those things as well.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. These are luxury coaches, we spend serious dollars to buy them and continue to spend money to drive and maintain them. Some of those dollars we spend go for fuel. That fuel is used not only to power the bus down the road, but when needed is used to drive the alternator to produce the electric for the on-board devices. When the big alternator is being asked to provide the electric to charge the batteries which are being run through the inverter to run an AC unit you use fuel for that.

I don't know if you like heat or cold, but regardless it is silly to experience even a little discomfort while in the coach. There are very few times when I can imagine the output of one AC unit will keep us comfortable. If I need cool air up front, you can bet I need it in the middle and rear of the coach also. My point is that as long as you are using fuel to run the big alternator to run an AC anyway, why not just always fire up the generator and turn on the AC's throughout the coach and enjoy a comfortable interior the full length. The added fuel cost will be minimal. I doubt if it will be 1 gallon an hour.

Energy is energy is energy and whether you get it throught the engine, using more fuel, or through the generator, also using fuel it is unimportant. You will always pay for the energy you use.

BTW, I never knew the details of how Royale ran the AC from an inverter, so this thread has been an eye opener. I'm not sure I would ever attempt to load a 2500 watt inverter like that. I think it is pushing it to the limit.

Joe & Jon:
It is apparent that both of you are very knowledgeable about these coaches, and I enjoy hearing from you.....

Joe, I agree, it would be nice to be able to run one AC on the inverter, but it doesn't seem possible with my set-up. But, I'm gonna talk to BG about it tomorrow.
Jon, I also agree that it probably just as well to run the generator when AC is needed, or until BG proves otherwise.

Bill,

When you talk to BG put their responses in perspective. They have some very good technical people, but I doubt if a single one of them has owned and lived with a coach. Your situation is a numbers issue. You have 2500 watts available if you are willing to push your inverter to the limit, and an AC unit uses at least 2/3 of them, (or if the current draw is close to Truk's all of them) nothing the tech says changes that.

You have only two options as I see it. Get a bigger inverter, and hope the Royale wiring was heavy enough so you do not have to pull new wires, or accept the fact that if you need AC while driving you will crank up the generator and keep the whole bus comfortable.

No disrespect to the salesmen, but I seriously doubt if any of them can get into the nitty gritty on this issue because you need to know wire sizes, if a remote needs to be changed, and how to balance the loads on the inverters so you can run all that you need while driving.

Bill you never did mention how many amps your a/c draws?

The start up amperage is taken into consideration by the inverter manufacturers. On our Heart it is twice its rated capacity.

Jon and I agree on every single issue here accept for safely continuously pulling 1600 watts (what I good a/c would be pulling) off a 2500 watt inverter.

If I were you I would give Mr. Dave Gusdorf a call and get his comments, and then share them. I think I would also want to talk to Royal Phoenix.

I am at BG and will see Wayne Clapp,the only person here I trust.

Joe who is Dave Gusdorf? I did talk to Dan Jourdan today and he cant understand why one AC wont run off the inverter.

Also how do I find the amps draw of the AC?

Joe, we agree about an inverter pulling 1600 watts. If that was all it pulled I have zero issues with that. I am looking at the big picture however.

When I am on inverters, such as when driving with the generator off, we have the TV on so we can listen to 50's music on the Direct TV, we make coffee, the refrigerator is running, etc. So unless the inverter is dedicated solely to the AC unit we are not pulling 1600 watts. As Karen and Tuga know I don't make coffee and I don't want Di having to do energy management. We own a "luxury" coach and we don't want to have to watch our energy loads.

But secondly, and here is where I am really opposed to buses without OTR, if you need to run one AC unit, you probably need to run two or three. If it is warm enough to need to supplement the driver's air with one of the roof or Cruise Airs, it is almost a sure bet the coach is getting warm inside. Point the bus in a southerly direction so the sun is coming in through the windshield and the front is like a sauna. Or if the sun is streaming through the side windows it is getting hot inside. If the engine is running the bedroom is toasty.

Unless a person is willing to sit in 80 degree temps and is comfortable, if you have to run one AC I guarantee the rest of the bus needs AC. The solution is simplle. Turn on all AC units, set the SMX controls to whatever temp is desired (70 or 72 in our case) and crank up the generator. Forget the inverter.

Everybody worries about running the generator. Wear and tear, use of fuel, etc. Screw it. It was meant to run, and the fuel used is inconsequential compared to what owning the bus really costs.

Jon I am just trying to help Bill get his camper to function as designed but am happy to debate this with you for the benifit of all.

He has 2 2500 watt inverters. ANYONE with 2500's needs to manage power while inverting even taking a/c out of the equation. Give me 5 min in your bus. Fridge on, coffeepot on microwave on and a curling iron or blow drier, u-line ice maker and some tv. Here is a scenario that is really quite normal for us BUT is not one that would require more than just a few minutes. This is the scenario when the gen runs for us and I do. What I would not want is a bus without OTR and that was unable to run any house a/c without the gen.

I have OTR a/c I like it but for the way we use the bus and what I'm learning about non OTR buses it would not be a deal breaker for us. If we are going to be moving around and the forecast would be TOO HOT, shoot I am not going to drive in the heat of the day anyway (even with OTR) because I do not want to tax the engine or tires or trans and all the other components, it will happen early or late evening or better yet through the night. Dash air and 1 house air will work wonderfully. I know you are old going blind and unwilling to drive at night and I can appreciate that.;)

If Bill separates his fridge and a/c to different inverters he could get the advantage of running 1 a/c without having to run the gen as designed and yes will have to manage loads while doing it and IMO there will be enough times where that situation poses itself to justify doing it. If I did not have OTR and had a 2500w inverter, I choose inverter for 1 a/c when needed over the gen, it will only be used intermittently as needed along with all the other potential intermittent loads , I know I am not alone.

Bill, Dave Gustdorf is a guy who does Heart inverter repair he is out of Santa Fe, NM. Many here have used him and he will for sure help you with inverter questions and problems.

Who is Dan Jourdon and is he is aware you are also currently trying to power the fridge and a/c on the same 2500 at the same time?

Joe, Our inverters are set up so energy management is not an issue.

We have a refrigerator, outlets, TV, aux air compressor and microwave on ours. They are split up so all normal use allows us to do anything we would reasonably want to do without worrying about what else might be drawing power.

The two biggest loads we put on the system are the microwave, or our coffee maker which is plugged into the forward outlets. I believe the two are on separate inverters. Yes you can overload it by figuring out what stuff is on each inverter and then plug more stuff into the outlets, but we don't, or at least haven't up to now.

I like watching y'all debate, I'm learning something.

Joe, I did separate the fridge from the AC. Now I have the fridge and water pump on one inverter, and the microwave and the aux air pump on the other. The recepticals on rt and lf side of coach are on different inverters.

Dan Jourdan is with Royal Phoenix, and he was with Monaco when they were building Royal coaches.

I hope Wayne can get this inverter repaired today...

Bill you should be able to see how much the air conditioner draws at the house control panel. Not all buses have all meters, IMO all should have all. For example we do not have a/c voltage in.

Ideally the total package for meters: both legs of a/c volts coming in AND then what the amp draw is for both those legs, 4 meters.

Additionally you should also be able to monitor the house battery voltage and the draw on them on them too. 2 meters

Finally each inverter should show what you are pulling off it. 1-2 meters

Personally I prefer the old analog gauges over the digital or meter styles(illuminated bars).

Moving the a/c with the microwave will require power management but should beat the alternative of overloading it by having the fridge and the a/c randomly both try to kick on at the same time, a phenomenon you have no control over that very well could be causing the problem.

Question: Does anyone know if the battery chargers will continue to work on a bus that has manual inverter bypass switches in the on position? If a bus were set up like that any time you were on shore or gen you could just shut them off.



Bill the air conditioners will show up on the amperage draw for one of the two legs of a/c current. 12 amp is wonderful 15 amp is a power hog. I can't help thinking there were other reasons for Royals choices for circuts that I am missing.Let us know.

Joe,

I don't know exactly how your coach inverters are wired back to the 120V panel, but I know exactly how mine are wired.

I have two #10 three wire cables attached to the 50 amp inverter breaker in the electrical panel feeding each inverter. The Heart Interface Freedom 2500 inverters that I have have two input circuits. One is dedicated to the battery charger, and the second is dedicated to the pass through transfer switch. The output going back to the 120 volt panel and the three circuits that particular inverter handles is a #10 three wire cable.

Under the NEC a #10 wire is rated for 30 amps.

To use your example you could overload any inverter, but when it is not inverting and is functioning as a pass through transfer switch you could conceivably create a hazard unless the pass through restricts the load via a circuit breaker. For example, on mine I told you the input cables are coming from a 50 amp breaker. In reality only one of the two three wire cables is pass through so there is a 50 amp breaker protecting a #10 wire.

On the output side there is the same size 3 wire #10 cable, but it feeds for example a microwave circuit, a forward outlet circuit, and perhaps a TV circuit. They each have a 20 amp Circuit breaker so if I load those three circuits simultaneously as you point out you can do, it is possible to never trip a 120 volt panel breaker, never exceed the inverter capability since this is just pass through power, yet you could be putting 50 amps through a #10 wire.

My point is simple and supports what you say. We do need to be aware of energy management, and particularly as relates to inverters. Just because the converter screwed things together to work in a particular fashion, it does not make it OK to push the limits.

Bill has droped off the radar:(:confused: He must be at BG

I am very curious how he made out.

Joe, You already know the answer. Running an AC off an inverter, any inverter is a push. If you make the inverter and wiring big enough for the loads you could run off inverters then you are pushing the alternator(s) to the limit. There ain't no free lunch.

Why the push to run the AC off an inverter ?
If you are using the generator you know that you have plenty of power, and another benefit is that the generator has proper exercise.
Somebody will say: "saving money", but it is a lot cheaper to spend $$$ for diesel than be with out the inverter when needs repairs that cost a lot more money that the extra you spend for fuel.

Alek

Joe: I drove by Buddy Gregg Wed and tooted the horn and nobody waved.

I then resumed using my funeral home fan as I do not have a Liberty.

I had to cut off of my Little OTR air cause it was too cold. The funeral Home fan was just right.

It has a caution label: Its like sex you have to be healthy enough to use it.

Roger,

You will have continued AC in the future. Just ordered more funeral home fans.
I pass them out to every other person. When I gave them to everyone it got too cold in the funeral home and the little old ladies complained about it being too cold.. Adjusted the thermostat - every other person

Roger,

Always thinking. You know someday you will sell that coach and you don't want to complain about the AC on a public forum so it will bite you in the butt when you have a real live buyer.

But what's with this sex thing? You are not healthy. You have a lame ankle. Are you telling us something? Did you get that ankle healed? Are you bragging?

We have been up in the mts for a few days and no internet.

Spent a day at BG but Wayne was unable to repair my inverter, must get another board, hope to have it by Tuesday.

Wayne tells me that he thinks trying to run AC on the inverter on my coach is not going to work. I dont know if it is just Monoco Royal or what but he agrees that I need to use the gen when AC is on.

I have to agree with Alek that maybe fuel is cheaper.

Bill

Didn't they post some stuff over on the Royale forum about several of them having the same problem running AC with the inverter running down the road and they fixed it by installing some manner of souped up engine driven alternator (who's name escapes me)?

Hey Jerry I need some help with the fuel pump on my mechanical 8-V.

Ever had one off?

Yep. You mean the gear pump on the back of the blower drive?

Jerry:

I have not seen this info but thanks and I will try to find it.

Anymore info you or anyone can find out will be appreciated.