Anyone have pictures of house batteries for a 98 Liberty?
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Anyone have pictures of house batteries for a 98 Liberty?
Do you have a Classic or Elegant Lady? Are they behind the small rear door on the passenger side or are they in the center behind the entertainment center?
Center behind the entertainment center.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Wehrenberg
Thanks, RB
Richard,
Here ya go, current work in progress... Jump in the car, come to Waleska and you can see them in person.;) Do yourself a favor and buy Lifelines with the POG discount. These junk Deka's only went 3 1/2 years.
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Truk,I think that I might have an answer for why batteries may not last in our Liberty's.If your watchdog is like mine it will not auto start until the voltage is below 22 volts,this is well below 50% discharge.I have asked Liberty what can be done to bring the auto start up to 24 volts,I should have an answer soon.I understand that Liberty does not want its customers to be awakened by the gen starting or stopping during the night,the watchdog is programmed to run for 6 hours after a low voltage auto start,it doesn't matter if the batteries are charged in 3 hours the gen still runs for 6 hours.What I really don't understand is the newer coaches have outback inverters (which are user friendly)which will perform all of the auto start functions and interface with the Crestron system,but Liberty still uses the Watchdog to preform the auto start.If Lifelines are drawn down to 22 volts I doubt they will last any longer than the Gells.
Ok...so needing to replace my house batteries as well. I have 4 of them on my Executive...and I don't have any sort of auto start. Is that a difficult retro fit? What's the best way to go on the house batteries? These pictured look just like mine...
Truk,
Did you have them shipped in from up around Charlotte? I'd do that but to get them off of the truk when it arrives.
Jack if you run your gen for 3 hrs right before you go to bed what will the voltages be in the morn? (excluding a/c or heat)
Jack,
I don't use the autostart for that very reason and sure wish is was adjustable. The Deka's are AGM, Marine. Mine kicks on at 11.5, but will not turn back off because it's looking for a voltage thats higher than my 13.1 float. Not sure if Brian used it much, but I doubt it. I use 12.2 as the manual starting point. The batteries were so bad while at the Charlotte race, we just came back home and postponed the remainder of our trip up north. The equalizing I did a few weeks ago only helped for a few days and then they were back to 12.4/12.5 as soon as I took off shore power or the gen. I knew this day was coming, but I just put it off hoping to get one more trip in, but I have too much dry camping ahead of me for weak batteries.
My experience with Lifelines have been very good and 5 years is a good benchmark. I completely agree with you that the autostarts low voltage start point will shorten battery life. It's hard to figure out, lower voltage starting over the life of the battery would result in fewer cycles than starting at 12.2. It's all about cycles, so is more better?:confused:
Lew - Yep, shipped from Charlotte to my warehouse...
Tom, To answer your question: I never used auto-start. As you said, 11.5v isn't a place you want to be for starting to charge low batteries. I disagree on your opinion of the Dekas however. The battery installation in the 40' Liberty was woefully inadequate in my opinion. Additionally, Liberty's support and assistance of the Watchdog system was very poor. The combination didn't give those batteries a chance to reach their expected longevity. Would suggest now is the time to add a fourth battery (as we've discussed) and contact Magnum and Powertech tech support for assistance in removing the Watchdog and using Magnum's user programmable built in auto-start feature.
As you know, I truly enjoyed the experience of owning the Liberty. The overall design, quality, and livability of that coach is superb in my opinion. It's incomprehensible to me how such an otherwise fine coach was equipped with such a poor dry camp capability. Thanks for giving me an opening to vent my spleen on this sore subject.
I have the Magnum auto-start and the start voltage is adjustable but only up to 12.0 or 24.0 depending on witch voltage your running.
I know 12.2 is the magic # but that is a resting voltage and so if you drag them down to 12.0 under load that is IMO just right. Depending on size of the load 11.9 could be O/K and better if it is large load like a residential fridge.
When it goes on the run time is 3 hr, preset nonadjustable. It has a quiet time override and can be programed to cycle the gen on a timed sequence instead of a low voltage start. Finally you can wire the thermostat from one of the house a/c units to it and it will auto-start when that a/c calls for cool and again, run for 3 hrs.
I got it for 159 bucks from the cruise-air guys, they have them. I later found out they undercharged me by a couple hundred dollars, I believe they are around 350. Comes with a remote.
The Liberty autostart has the ability to autostart when low shore or gen voltages become evident, this unit will not do that.
Hopefully this is close to on topic....
With a good set of house batteries, how long can one expect to run a couple of A/C's for instance?
Maybe more appropriate, what can be expected in terms of background use for over night from a good set of batteries? One A/C and some lighting? No A/C's?
Although it is possible to run a/c off of inverters it is almost impossible to do it without the bus running or shore or gen power available and I do not believe it was the intent of designers to do so.
I would be surprised if you could get more than a couple of hours trying to power a/c off inverters w/o input power, along with all the other the essentials like the fridge and such.
Excluding a/c, even a weak set of batteries should be enough to get you 8 hrs overnight.
Thanks Joe - that makes sense certainly, but I was curious after reading different threads on inverter use during quiet times, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cannarozzi
A couple of comments....
On our previous coach, I could program the auto start through the inverter control to start at almost any set point that I wanted such as specific voltage or percentage of state of charge, and the options for the generator to shut down included manual, float charge, or a specific voltage. Very easy and user-friendly. I sure wish I had that same control in my Liberty.
Regarding the dry camping issue, we have never had a problem with the batteries lasting through the night, say 8 to 9 hours.
Actually, we've had them last through much of the day if we're away from the bus. Of course, with minimal loads. Usually, I would run the generator from about 3 or 4 in the afternoon until 9 or 10 at night. That seemed to be plenty to provide AC for cooking/cooling/etc. during the "busiest" part of the day and keep the batteries up the rest of the time.
If we stayed up later and watched TV for a while after the generator was shut down for the night, sometimes I will run the generator for a couple of hours first thing in the morning before leaving the bus.
I think that you should expect the batteries to easily make it through the night with light loads.
Unfortunately, I have no experience trying to run AC loads on battery power.
Gordon - Most of the Marathons will run 1 A/C for 4 to 5 hours or 2 A/C's for about 2 hours on the inverters. I had a 97 that I put in all new house batteries and I could easily get that usage. Keep in mind, those were 2 4,000 watt trace inverters and 6 4D AGM Lifelines. If you have a good set of batteries, like Paul said, overnight is no problem with conservative use of the power. Like the others, I run the gen for about 3 hours before bed and your good to go.
Brian - If money was no object like Jdub & Mango, I would for sure convert this Watchdog nightmare over to the Magnum's auto-start capabilities.
Joe - I don't know how you could call the 12.2 a resting voltage when dry camping. There is no battery resting in my dry camping, something is always calling for power. I do agree that 12.0 is probably an OK number and once again, it's all about cycles.:)
How do you go about getting the POG discount and do you know of dealers in the Southern California (Long Beach) area?Quote:
Originally Posted by truk4u
RB
Gordon,
We run one or two AC's all the time on the batteries and the time really depends on the temperature. I have had them run 2 or 3 hours before the generator started and I have had them run 8 hours. The big amp draw is the compressor is running, so if it only cycles on intermittently, then you get longer run times.
Richard,
If your doing the work yourself, just call Lifeline, tell them your a POG member and they will ship them to you. If you have the work done by some shop or dealer who also sells you the batteries, you will obviously pay more.
I thought you were near Atlanta according to your screen address, so I know you won't be visiting.:p
Thanks fellas - sounds like with good batteries you have some options for invertor only use overnight if conditions aren't too demanding.
I came home this afternoon and smelled the depressing scent of batteries gassing off. My Batteries are new lifelines. So, after checking everything on the inverter/chargers, I decided to turn the system off for the night.
Lifeline manual says a small amount of gassing is not unusual but I have never smelled anything before today with these new batteries.
I lost power to the Coach about a week ago and everything was drawn down but I have not had any other problems.
If anyone has additional information, I would appreciate some input or I'm faced with getting in there and testing each individual battery.
Joe,I was out of town yesterday and could not answer,You asked what would be my voltage without AC or heat in the AM,I really don't know,but if it is cool enough on any of my next trips I will find out.Liberty has said that they will help with the watchdog to get it set up to auto start at 24 volts and I will also try to get it to turn off after 3-4 hours of run time.I will determine that after a few more trips.
I can concur with the same experience that both the Liberty and Marathon owners have had. The Watchdog on our Liberty was a source of periodic frustration which we had fixed on several occasions. I ended up writing some of its performance off on the age of the 1994 coach technology. Bottom line on that bus was that Autostart did work if you left the coach unattended for a significant period of time. Yet while we were in the coach I tended to run the genset to coordinate with our power usage and sleep schedule. AC would not run unless on shore or generator power anyway so battery life was as much as 12 or more hours merely running refrigerator and a few lights.
Currently I let the Marathon kind of do its own thing unless we are camping where there are specified hours for generator use. Batteries will run AC up to 2 AC units somewhere from 2 to 8 hours much like Jerry stated. My batteries are 2 years old and I am starting to see a very slight decrease in stored capacity. This thread has got me thinking about set points but in my past discussions with Marathon they have been pretty confident with their stock settings. I am open to any comments which would increase their lifespan....
I'm in Southern California now but will return to Atlanta late June. I'll do the work then. Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by truk4u
RB
Richard,
Where are you in SoCal? I'm sure many of the local guys would love to get together and meet up with you.
Ray
Towson where does your Marathon auto-start, lower than you are comfortable with?
That mark is a moving target. If the draw is great you can go deeper between charges than if the draw is minimal.
If you are just running 1 light for security during outdoor storage you would want it kicking in right at 12.2 but if you are regularly running a couple of a/c's on them they can get down into the 11's safely.
That point should be able to be conveniently adjustable to some degree.
Richard here is the contact and pricing for Lifeline:
Yes we do offer special pricing to POG members.
Normal retail cost for the GPL-4DL is $466.59 + shipping
POG Member price is $380.45 (freight included)
Let me know if you need any more assistance.
Thank you for contacting us.
Best Regards,
Justin Godber
Lifeline Batteries
955 N. Todd Avenue
Azusa, Ca 91702
Tel - 626-969-6886 x 221
Fax -626-969-8566
Email - justin@lifelinebatteries.com
Web - www.lifelinebatteries.com
Take this with a grain of salt because it may not apply to all Libertys.Quote:
Originally Posted by jack14r
My Watchdog has a voltage sense wire that runs through a 1 amp fuse. It is located on a multi fuse block on the LH electric compartment side panel. Assuming from Jack's post the generator run is a timed event rather than one controlled by a battery voltage such as 27 (or 13.5) volts then the Watchdog start voltage can be adjusted by an addition of a resistor that will convert and actual voltage of XX to the lower value that starts the Watchdog. Someone with electrical skills beyond mine can figure the resistance value required, but it should be an easy thing to do.
Ray, I'm in Long Beach and I work here M-F and then fly home to Atlanta on the weekends (when I can). I'd love to meet up with folks here as would the lovely Mrs. Barnes when she comes out. I keep the coach in Long Beach except for work related travel or weekend get aways. We just returned from a weekend in Yosemite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Davis
RB
Thanks for the info. I'll be in touch with them. I really appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0533
Richard,
Many of us are in Southern CA, maybe 30 minutes away. Would love to connect some evening and get together for dinner. Maybe we could get a group to meet half-way?
Ray
Joe, I will look this weekend but memory says that it kicks on at 11.8 - at least thats when the Techlink system says the batteries are depleted.
Jon,
Good idea, where are we going to find the electrical wizard to help with this problem?
I was incorrect when I stated my auto-start activated at 11.5, it's actually 11.15 according to the Liberty Manual, that's even worse. It also states that the gen will run until 13.6 volts are achieved.:eek: My bulk and absorbtion charge is 14.2 and float is 13.1. So in theory, the gen would shut off during the bulk/absorbtion cycle. My float will never get it to 13.6, so what were they thinking!:confused: I do know that it will not shut off and continues to run indefinitely.
This Watch Dog thing must be some dark, secret, hidden for Liberty Eyes only since there is no way to make any adjustments.
Truk,
I based my idea on Jack's 6 hour generator run time.
If the generator run time is not based on hours in the Watchdog, but on house battery voltage then the idea of using a resistor in the sense line is invalid. A resistor will make it start sooner, but since the voltage will read lower than actual it will never be seen by the Watchdog as being at a high enough value. To address that would require the addition of a relay and some additional wiring.
The Watchdog is a deep dark secret and if there were any single lousy feature on a Liberty this feature has to be near the top of the list, if not at the top of the list. If I were not content to manually start my generator and to monitor my voltages that alone would put me in another coach.
Even if the Watchdog is solely dependent upon battery voltage for starting and stopping I think a modification to the sense wire circuit could be implemented. The first step would be to install a resistor in the sense wire circuit so the generator would start at some new higher value such as 12.25 volts. As soon as the generator started, use a relay with a 120 volt coil that is closed upon generator start to bypass the resistor and allow the Watchdog to "read" actual voltage in the sense wire while the generator was running.
I could easily create the circuit, all I would need would be someone to get me the correct resistor value to change 12.25 actual volts into 11.15 volts to fool the Watchdog into starting prematurely.
Jon,I don't think that the watchdog shuts the generator off based on voltage but shuts down only on time.I think your resistor method would work fine except I would like to reduce the run time to possibly 3-4 hours which should fully charge the batteries.I will be dry camping in 2 weeks and I will verify how long it takes to fully charge the gels from 12 volts to 14.1 volts.When the batteries reach 14.1 volts should I maintain the bulk charge for some period of time to fully charge the batteries?
My Magnum is like Jack's it goes on with voltage but then I can adjust that easily but once it starts it will run for a 3 hr period and that is not adjustable. That is just about perfect timing to get us from 12.2 to 13.1. They get there around 2&1/2 hr+.
I have found I do not need it. I will run the gen when I get up 3hr and before bed 3 hr unless it is warm the gen runs as long as it needs to to keep comfortable.
I do not like to let the gen run when I am not there even though it could, why invite potential problems.
Right now 8 hrs of gen time is 20 bucks, a small price to pay for comfort and convenience where there would be none.
Jon when the charge starts and the charger is giving them 30amp they are at 14.1 almost immediately and as the charge rate goes down so does the battery voltages till the charger drops off to 10 amp then float and the batteries follow at 13+ to 13 even or so.
That would mean you would be trying to sense getting back to 13.1 to get it to shut down at the right time?
I think 3 hrs is a pretty close universal time frame to get from 12.2 to 13.1 on most coaches who else can add data here?
Jack,
I don't think you get the batteries 100% charged until float is achieved. Also, on mine, bulk and absorbtion are the same charging voltage 14.2.
Just call Nick Hessler and see if he has any ideas on the subject.
I think he would like to have a product of his own for the RV market.
He sure is knowledgeable enough. If he wanted to do it I think he could!
His old cell number is 541.321.2545.
If that's not current I think Ray has his number.
He could probably make a kit to add or a whole new watchdog type gizmo from scratch to do what is necessary!
JIM
The charge rate of the batteries is dependent upon how the inverters are set up.
I have my inverters set up for the lowest charge rate because we rarely dry camp. You will go into float a whole lot faster if you set the inverters up for maximum charge rate. Then when you are on shore power trying to manage loads you have to remember how you have the inverters set up so you do not trip the power outlet relay.
For example, on a hot night with a heavy load on the 50 amp power outlet turning on a lot of coach lighting such as the Tivolis the inverters will ramp up the power to keep the batteries charged possibly tripping the power outlet breaker.
If you find out exactly how the logic is on the Watchdog (time or voltage?) pass it on and I will try to experiment on my caoch to develop a way to start with a higher voltage so the batteries have a longer life.
One thing everyone needs to consider. I don't know the answer, but it is one that can probably be plotted.
A 50% maximum discharge may give the batteries a life of 5000 charge / discharge cycles. A discharge down to 10% remaining life may cut the number of cycles to 1000. The question I have is how many hours of use before the batteries reach 50% versus 10%, and does the number of life cycles match the number of times the generator will start regardless of which rate of discharge is selected? Obviously starting the generator at 50% means it is going to start more often than if the batteries are allowed to go down to 11.15 volts before recharging.
Jon,You are right about the AC current draw and tripping the breaker,I can adjust the outback inverter/charger down to 5 AC amps.Liberty wants them set up on 50 amp service at 18 and 10 amps,and this will almost always cause a problem with current draw.The other thing that I don't like is the chargers are set up for 4 hours of bulk charge and 2 hours of float charging,this is a problem because whenever a current source is changed it goes into bulk charge for 4 hours.I adjust mine based on the needs of the batteries.If I plug in after driving it will go to bulk charge even though the batteries are fully charged.My Marathon with the trace inverters would do the same thing.This can not be good for any type of batteries,and I think that this would help sell more batteries.The systems that we have for charging are not smart therefore we must adjust and monitor the chargers to deliver the correct voltage and current based on the condition of the batteries.