Pog IV The Beginning

In another post,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Wehrenberg

We heard Branson in the first week of October. Guys and gals that ain't going to happen unless someone or several raise their hands and volunteers to make it happen. Since this is an organization without an organization it calls for someone or maybe two or three or four someones to express a willingness to coordinate another rally.

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I have already started some communications with people in the know about where we could hold our next rally, POG IV.

I have layed down some thoughts about what this groups likes, wants, and needs are from my perspective, yes a NEWBIE POGer wanna-be, and I just hope I can come up with some suggestions for the next site.

Finding a place suitable to hold another rally of our size or bigger isn't going to be easy. Most of us think we know what went into making this rally successful, but it is only going to get harder from here on out to put this thing together. Buckhorn RV Lake Resort has SPOILED everyone. Just remember you HEARD IT HERE FIRST !

I should have some suggestion sites by next week for a group or POG IV Committee to consider as the next possible Rally Site.

THAT IS UNLESS SOMEONE OBJECTS?

Gary, thanks for starting on this. I'm sure you already know about Outdoor Resorts in Blue Eye Arkansas, the south side of table rock lake.

If anyone has the dates yet, let us know.

I have visited the ODR in Arkansas and I think it is a great place to hold POGIV. It's about a 35 mile drive into Branson but in my opinion well worth the small inconvenience.
Kevin

If anyone is not available to eyeball the prospective sites I will volunteer to fly or drive there to do an on-site inspection. I will just need a checklist of our needs.

ORA Blue Eye, Arkansas is a nice facility on the shores of a large lake. The drive there from Branson is on 2 lane narrow roads, but it is a -plausible route for Prevosts: just need to watch branches and a roads with no shoulder. The facility as we remember from our visit in 2005, is on a gentle slope towards the lake. The office/lodge is on the top of the slope and the sites are scattered down the hillside.
At that time (2005) they were building some more sites so there was construction stuff going on.
Blue Eye, Ark, itself is just a "blink" of a town, so there is nothing really there in the way of food, shopping or fuel.

There might be other larger campgrounds closer to Branson. the Chamber of Commerce might be the place to start.

Just a thought

Dale, No Dates yet, work still in Process.

Jim Skiff is working on the Table Rock ORA as we speak, making sure they could accomadate our needs, food preperation, # of available sites, meeting room to accomadate our seminars and so on.

Still looking into other possible sites for the next event.

More to come as we narrow down the search.

Gary S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Wehrenberg

If anyone is not available to eyeball the prospective sites I will volunteer to fly or drive there to do an on-site inspection. I will just need a checklist of our needs.

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Thanks Jon for this fabulous offer. I know Jim will keep this option open for use later, after a number of sites have been whittled down for our needs.

Gary S.

Aside from the distance traveled by POG members and others, I think access to and from the site is extremely important. Additionally, we have been spoiled by POG III and everything going forward will be compared to our most recent Rally. I think we should have some basic guidelines. Examples would be; Cement pads as opposed to gravel or dirt, This is real important in terms of keeping the Coaches clean inside and out. 50 amp power , Pull-thru sites, General store, Wi-Fi, Cell phone reception,
Campground amenities; pool, jacuzzi, exercise, etc.
Gary

Gary's point is an excellent one and I concur. Rallies are not as much fun if we are on grass and are struggling to manage power.

From our PP experience however we have learned that the average campground, even with 50 amp service to all sites may not be capable of handling a large number of rigs. We were at a rally in the KOA south of Colorado Springs and with 200 coaches there all the campground transformers burned out. I think at 64 coaches we may be nearing a practical limit so a 200 site campground is not overtaxed. The national electric code does not contemplate every power outlet being used at its full rated capacity and the inground wires are not sized to handle those loads.

The second point is the site roads and surfaces. I hate being in a campground with gravel roads and sites. It always seems that we are not only trying to keep the interior clean, but every passing car, no matter how slow it is driving seems to raise dust.

All we have to remember is we need to be prepared to pay for the amenities we want. I'm willing.

Jon and Gary D, your points are very well taken and understood, and we are working towards all of those goals as we speak. We just got started checking into various sites that may or may not work out for our next event, so give us a little time to check and contemplate all venues for our next site.

And besides I am going to Vegas tomorrow for 5 days, to win me a new Liberty, or at least, bring home the first months payment. Ok, so maybe it won't be a NEW Liberty, but I am hoping to win at least enough for a used one's first month payment.

Gary S

When speaking with various parks, it become obvious which parks are "rally" parks. As an example, while traveling to POG3 the CA group stopped at Beaudry for one night. The people there took great pride in telling us about their rally capabilities, and indicated we should consider a rally there some day (not that I'm suggesting this now).

So, many parks are rally ready, and generally have the kind of accomodations that we need, including the ability to provide catering. One of the differences between POG2 and POG3 (not a complaint by any means), was that Buckhorn had a production line going when it came to feeding people. We got everyone served in a very short period of time. If you remember POG2, we walked through a normal catering serving line, and that took quite a while to get served.

I think as we grow, the catering aspect becomes a big part of the decision, along with all the other things raised above.

Ask the park about their rally capabillities. If they've done big rallies before, and for how many, etc. etc.

Looking forward to the next one!

Ray

Jon, your correct regarding the design on 50 amp pedestals. They will usually run 4 pedestals on a 100 amp sub-feed, maybe more. Now, if it is 85 degrees or higher outside, there will be a good chance that system will be at full capacity or overloaded because everyone will be running their A/C's. If the weather is cooler, it's not a issue. Typically at rallies, they will furnish only 30 amp mximum power via Large Generators with Cord distributions and Spider box plug-ins. That would be a consideration as our Rally grows and the sites are chosen. Gary

Maybe this is an appropriate time to discuss rally size.

We have been in rallies of up to 200 plus coaches. I can say without fear of contradiction that with that number of coaches there is no way a rally can be as enjoyable as our rallies have been thus far.

As stated previously power becomes an issue. There are few campgrounds capable or willing to handle the power requirements of the typical Prevost. As a result we have ended up in fairgrounds with temporary power while we dry camped on grass.

But even if there was a campground large enough and with enough power available we have other considerations. Few have the facilities to house our seminars or to handle our meals. As a result a lot of activities require bussing. 200 coaches equals about 400 attendees and that takes about 9 or ten charter coaches. That in turn means standing in line to get on the bus and standing in line to get fed.

I think when selecting sites we should aim for one that can handle 50 to 80 coaches without compromise. Paved roads and sites, ample power, large facilities on site for dining and seminars, and in-house expertise at handling rallies.

The folks at Buckhorn have raised the bar and set the standard. Santa Fe was great, but now we know there is at least one location where they can do it better.

If we have enough group members after POG IV, I think the next logical step for setting up rallies is to set up regional rallies using the twice a year schedule, offsetting dates so if anyone wants to attend all four that it will be possible. I think manageable group sizes such as POG III will make the search for venues easier, more plentiful, and will allow attendees to spend more time on activities instead of being driven from the campground to the meals or seminars.

I see no advantage to a central rally attended by a hundred or more coaches unless all of the inconveniences associated with a rally of that size can be addressed.

Wow, you all are soooo over the top. I'm still in awe at what we experienced at Buckhorn and POG IV is already in the planning !!

We thought we knew what we wanted in a bus and were just going to POG III to validate. After seeing and talking with all the knowledgable folks at POG III we are questioning our thoughts.

I guess one really BIG question is how did MM go from a staunch XL man to the H camp ?? There are several others that have done this also, so feel free to answer up. What is it ?? Cost, application, layout ?? Something else ??

Then the slide / no slide conflict was thrown up in the air by all the great layouts of non-slide buses. However we still lean toward the 2 slide bus (nice job Gary with that too cool 03 Liberty !!).

I seem to have lost my direction momentairly due to system overload with new information. And Marathon, what were you thinking with a mid-entry bus ?? Thank God you only did 4 of them...whew..:D (the wife was jumping up and down after that visit)

Michael

If it would help, I will be at ODR in Blue eye near the end of this month (May). I can scout or do anything else needed for the group at that time. I am concerned about going to an owner park due to the need of so many sites for the meeting.

Kim sloan
02 Vantare still with slide problem
06 Megacab

When I visited ODR in Arkansas last November, not with the bus but just to see the park, I was very impressed. It has a very large meeting room with a wet bar, dance floor and a kitchen off to the side for the catering Co. to use. It did not look that full and I guess we only need to ask if they could have the number of spaces that we need available that time of the year. As I mentioned before, the drive to Branson is a little far but there are many thing in the Table Rock Lake area to see and do. I am sure with the # of tour busses in that area we could plan a few nights into tour via busses, who knows maybe a H3 with lots of seats and a very small potty room.
A little far for the west coast group but if I have the time open, count me in, a little water skiing, canoe rides and some good food not that far away.
Kevin

Ok, since we are free associating..... I don't think all of our support vendors and Conversion Companies are going to want to hussle all over the United States 4 times a year for our POG meetings. We are going to take this one step at a time and not get a head of ourselves. POG will grow, but I hope we do not see 200 Coaches in October! We all are concerned growth will lead to less personal connection to POG. We will have to address ways to allow growth and keep this group as connected and commited . Personally, I like the idea of having some Seminars outside in front of peoples Buses. I hate being inside! Lets bring some Canopies for the possibility of inclimate weather or rent something.
I think two POG s a year; one somewhere out west, one somewhere out east. We'll deal with the site issues as our group grows.

Those are all very sensable thoughts.

Gary De: Very good thoughts, I totally agree with them. Twice a year will not tax the vendors too much and all of us will be better able to make all of POGs. Lets try this format first and see what effect growth in membership has on us in the future. I was worried POGlll had too many new faces, but it went real well and some more growth would not change that. Mini rally's on right and left coasts would be a great way to organise plans for the main two rall'ys. There's my 2cents worth.

POG is a unique group. It is made up of a fantastic group of people who are friendly, knowledgeable, and down to earth. With a combination like that we are going to have growth that is unstoppable. The teasing and humor on the forum is something that you don't see on other forums. That coupled with the friendships that are built at the rallies will ensure that POG will be like a run-away-train; it will continue to grow as the word spreads about how much fun the rallies are. We may not want 200 coaches at a rally, but I don't think that we can stop it. There are no other groups like POG, people will soon make the connection and join POG just to meet the cast of characters and learn how to fix their coaches themselves!

I think that the idea of 2 rallies a year is a good one; one on the right coast and one on the left coast. I agree with Gary about the mechanic's corners being held outside. The best place for a demo is AT THE COACH, not inside a meeting room.

We are blessed with a group of smart guys and gals, we will come up with a solution to this growth problem - just keep thinking and posting - the answer will be worked out in time.;)

I think the converters and the suppliers should chime in on what works for them.

As a group however, I do not think we should build or plan rallies based on how many converters we can get to show up. I think the converters and suppliers should always be welcome, and I think they should be encouraged to participate in our seminars. I like seeing the coaches so I see no down side to their participation. But to limit the number of rallies or locate rallies just to get them to show up I think is wrong.

Right now it appears that as a group we can expect to see at least as many attendees in Branson as we had in Kerrville.

As the group grows I would be willing to predict the left side of the country could support two rallies six months apart with similar numbers and the right side could do the same. I would imagine if all the rallies were the size we just had there would be support from converters and suppliers. I questioned one of the converters at Kerrville about the size of the rally and if it was advantageous to his company, and the response was positive. He indicated it was a good size and it allowed him to talk to almost every attendee.

Rather than speculate I think Branson will be the test of where POG is headed. Going from 10 to 25 to over 60 coaches it appears clear there has been growth. If Branson pulls in the same number of coaches and a similar number are turned away, we will know what our rally plans for the future will be.

It appears that the POG rally's should be quality, not quantity driven. Once the limit for that particular location has been reached then lock it down. We have a great thing going here. Let's not let the growth bug drive the bus.


Mike

Ok, let me begin by saying Craps was CRAP this time around. I didn't win enough in Vegas for my bus down payment, hell, I had to wear a dirty shirt I had left over home, but anyway that is behind me now. :(

I have been checking out some various sites for POG IV, and I will begin by letting you know what my requirements were for the sites. These are ONLY sites that I thought might be considered to be worthy and the final decision is still up to the People in Charge, NOT ME ! I am just the investigator, and I have an Excel Spreadsheet to prove it, if you want to see it.

Some of the requirements are: :confused:

1. Able to accomadate 50+ coaches of our size
2. Concrete Pads for the rigs, and paved roads through out the rally site.
3. Complete Catering Options for our group
4. Expected nice weather at that time of year
5. Some pull Through sites, for those towing trailers
6. Various Optional Activities near the area, ( Besides Drinking, near the coaches, which I enjoyed greatly ), ie: Theaters, Plays, Casinos, Motorcycle Rides, etc.
7. Availibility of the Rally site for our group, in October 2007
8. And finally the obvious, 50amp, cable, water/sewer hook ups

Here is the first group of sites for everyones review. Please check out the web sites, look at all the various pages, and POST YOUR THOUGHTS. If you have actually been to any of these, make your personal comments, known.

I should have a few more sites to consider early next week for review. Remember, I am not making the Rally Site decision, I am only providing OPTIONS.

1. Cherokee / Smokies KOA, N.C. http://www.koa.com/where/nc/33173/

2. Sundermeir RV Resort, Mo. http://www.sundermeierrvpark.com/

3. Rayford Crossing RV Resort, Tx http://www.rayfordcrossing.com/

Let me reiterate, these are just a few of the many possible True Rally Sites, but these do meet the requirements that some of you posted earlier as hoping to find in our next rally. I believe these will provide a fun and enjoyable POG IV Rally, up to the standards we experienced at Buckhorn Lake RV Resort for POG III.


Gary S

Here are two more suitable Very Nice and accommodating possible sites for POG IV.

These Rally Resorts have all but one of the amenities I was looking for in a Rally site for us.

They do not have DIRECT Food Catering at the resort. They have Offsite Catering Companies that come in and feed small to large groups of people, at the pavilion or Tent area.

Which brought up another idea, I had not thought of. While some of the nice resorts do not have an indoor seating pavillion, like Buckhorn had, most would be able to set up Large Tent areas with seating for our entire group.

Check these two possible Rally sites out and post your thoughts.

Willowtree RV Resort, SC http://www.willowtreervr.com/home.html

Holiday Travel Park, VA http://www.htpvabeach.com/index.htm
They offered us 25% Discount, NO other resorts talked about Discounts at all, but then we haven't started negotiating rates either.



[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="5"]

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY to all of you Mothers out there.

[/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="Blue"]I would also like to give a SPECIAL THANKS to "Mr. Ken Hamill, Owner and Founder of Big Rigs Best Campground Directory ". [/COLOR]His home site is in Buckhorn Lakes RV Resort. He has given me many of the names of the campgrounds to call and check on, and will continue to work with me if his assistance is needed. http://www.big-rigs-rv.com/index.htm :) :)


Gary S

I applaud Gary and Peggy Stevens attempt to set out some sort of criteria for future POG events. The next step would be for our leaders to use this as a "strawman" and come up with a final but flexible set of criteria, set up the old excel spreadsheet and populate with candidates. Once the list is finalized then its a lot easier to select finalist and I would venture to say this list would remain relatively intact going forward with a few annual updates.

Steve Lane

Gary and Peggy,

Great job picking up the ball and running with it! I thought I would bring another of Tom Trucks suggestions over here from a different thread discussion. I could feel the thread police looming :D He pointed out that the Country Coach rally was held at River Plantation in Sevierville which is right outside of the Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge area. Looks like a nice facility from the website.

http://www.riverplantationrv.com/

We attended the Parliament rally (even though we didn't have their conversion) in Asheville at Bear Creek RV and though we had a fun time visiting, touring the Biltmore Estate, etc. it is not the "place" that Kerrville was/is.

http://www.ashevillebearcreek.com/

Jon mentioned that their are several nice parks in the Gatlinburg area--maybe he can present a list?

For a possible national rally, Meg at Millennium spoke with a customer who had just attended a big rally in Branson held at the ABC resort in Branson:

http://www.abc-branson.com/amenities.html

Check these out and see if any of them meet your qualifications in order to be added to the list.

The Willow Tree Park outside of North Myrtle Beach sure looks wonderful and is fairly new--built in 2003 I believe?

Thanks again for all your efforts......

FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I CANNOT FIND THE POST THAT GARY STEVENS MADE A LONG WHILE AGO ABOUT HIS VISIT TO ODR IN PORT ST LUCIE.

This really ticks me off. The post was so far off base on what was here as for the # of coaches, the # of Prevosts coaches, etc, etc.

What I am trying to compare is the incorrect review of my home and now he has stepped up and is reccommending all of these places for POG IV.

Maybe if I re-read the post I would have a different opinion but I doubt it. I hate to be sour grapes but his post was wrong....way wrong and the world continued to spin. I expected such. Damn, I wish I could find that post. I scanned all I could. GET A LIFE(COACH)

Lew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lewpopp

FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I CANNOT FIND THE POST THAT GARY STEVENS MADE A LONG WHILE AGO ABOUT HIS VISIT TO ODR IN PORT ST LUCIE.

This really ticks me off. The post was so far off base on what was here as for the # of coaches, the # of Prevosts coaches, etc, etc.

What I am trying to compare is the incorrect review of my home and now he has stepped up and is reccommending all of these places for POG IV.

Maybe if I re-read the post I would have a different opinion but I doubt it. I hate to be sour grapes but his post was wrong....way wrong and the world continued to spin. I expected such. Damn, I wish I could find that post. I scanned all I could. GET A LIFE(COACH)

Lew

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Well Lew, the Post you are referring to was dated 01/07/07 @ 12:07pm and my original post started like this,
"
Peg and I just got back from our Florida trip. ( More on that Later We stayed at ORA in St. Lucie Florida, for two days through New Years eve, and had a great time. We talked to everybody in a Prevost that was out and about, and everyone was so nice to talk to. There were probably about 30 Prevost buses of every convertor, along with about 30 other coaches in the park. Most of them were owners at the park."

My original post was not to degrade, or malign your home or anything else about you or the ORA St. Lucie Resort. I was merely overwhelmed by all of the beautiful coaches in the park. It was more than we had seen anywhere else on our trip to Florida. You will notice I mentioned talking with many bus owners, and thoroughly enjoying their comments, and the overall hospitality of the park.

IF THE FACT that I understated the number of coaches, or miss counted them, Pisses you Off, to Bad. Get over it!

As far as MY RECOMMENDATIONS for places to hold the rally next time, they are just recommendations, I am just trying to help. YOU are welcome to jump in and take over this task anytime.

Lew

Whenever I'm looking for one of your old posts, I'll always check ALL THE WRONG forums first.

Hey Lew, did you mix a grump pill in with your Viagra?:p What the hell does Gary's POG4 recommendations have to do with your place in Florida? A POG4 rally in Florida has never even been discussed....:eek:

Now go back to sleep...:D

It has previously been extoled and conveyed that the group had no leader!:eek:


---------size is everything------small is better----------:rolleyes:


let the fun begin:D :D

I'll take a ride and scope out Sevierville / Pigeon Forge / Gatlinburg campgrounds. I agree with the River Plantation recommendation Debi made.

From my memory I don't recall a lot of camgrounds that are friendly to big coaches in large numbers because in the area the terrain is pretty rugged. River Plantation is located on river bottom land and lays flat. It is a fairly new campground.

It will take a few days, but I'll post the results. The late October dates Ben and Coloradobus mentioned will be the dates I will focus on.

FWIW, this area has a lot of features similar to Branson in that it has theaters, outlet shopping, some great motorcycle riding venues, Dollywood, loads of amusement rides and other types of entertainment like helicopter rides.

Jon, the River Plantation RV Park is a nice looking resort, from the web site but the reason I did not include it in one of my recommendations is, because it does Not have Paved Sites, nor paved roads they are all gravel.

If the Gravel sites, roads is not a concern for the group, my mistake.

Gary S

Gary It is not a "mistake" and we appreciate all that you are doing.

[]River Plantation RV Park [/I][/B]is a nice looking resort, from the web site but the reason I did not include it in one of my recommendations is, because it does Not have Paved Sites, nor paved roads they are all gravel If the Gravel sites, roads is not a concern for the group, my mistake.Gary ]

Hey Gary, you are doing a FABULOUS job checking out locations. I only mentioned River Plantation because Truk had brought it to our attention. You are right, the sites are not paved. The road leading in is paved, there is a concrete patio next to each site, but the coach sites are gravel. How shortsighted is that for a new park???? :eek: However, the gal I spoke with just now indicated to me that they never have a problem staying full so what do I know:rolleyes:

It's gravel boys and girls, but very nice and had no problem accomodating about 30 - 40 Country Coaches when we were there a few years ago.

Check it out Jon Boy, we're waiting for the A-1 critique!;)

I spent the afternoon cruising campgrounds.

River Plantation is booked solid. Period. It has the nicest facilities with a brand new meeting building but they are not able to even consider any groups this year.

Of all the campgrounds in the area only one seems capable of handling 50 to 60 (or more) of us. That one is Riverside RV Park www.riversidecamp.com and if we are serious about the Pigeon Forge / Gatlinburg area that one needs to be reserved pronto. The fall colors will draw a lot of visitors.

That campground has "paved" roads (we used to call them carpet coated) but the sites are gravel. Each site has a concrete pad under the picnic table near the coach door.

The pavillion is open. There is no enclosed meeting area.

The only other campground somewhat suitable was King's Holly Haven RV Park (no web site). They can accomodate31 coaches until 10/11 or after 10/28. This campground is much more in the center of the attractions in the area. It also only has an open pavillion for meetings or meals. Sites and roads are crushed stone.

My recommendation is to lock up sites in Branson and to not delay. We are requiring so many sites that not only are we limited in campgrounds to accomodate us, but we are really pushing it expecting six months to be an adequate lead time for reservations.

[ My recommendation is to lock up sites in Branson and to not delay. We are requiring so many sites that not only are we limited in campgrounds to accomodate us, but we are really pushing it expecting six months to be an adequate lead time for reservations]

Jon, thanks for checking out the sites, it is quite the tourist area. I did call Willowtree outside of Myrtle Beach and they do have paved streets, pads, and she seemed to think accomodating 30 coaches in October would not be a problem. However, it is not in the Smokies it is at the beach. There are also a lot of tourist attractions in the area. The website is quite informative:

Willowtree RV Resort, SC http://www.willowtreervr.com/home.html

It should still be pretty warm there in October. Maybe Donna or Mango can chime in on the area since Donna is from Myrtle Beach??

It really doesn't matter to me where we have the eastern rally but the thought occurred to me that possibly Branson should be saved for a National rally since it is a little more centrally located? I bow to the powers that be;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Wehrenberg

I spent the afternoon cruising campgrounds.

River Plantation is booked solid. Period. It has the nicest facilities with a brand new meeting building but they are not able to even consider any groups this year.

Of all the campgrounds in the area only one seems capable of handling 50 to 60 (or more) of us. That one is Riverside RV Park www.riversidecamp.com and if we are serious about the Pigeon Forge / Gatlinburg area that one needs to be reserved pronto. The fall colors will draw a lot of visitors.

That campground has "paved" roads (we used to call them carpet coated) but the sites are gravel. Each site has a concrete pad under the picnic table near the coach door.

The pavillion is open. There is no enclosed meeting area.

The only other campground somewhat suitable was King's Holly Haven RV Park (no web site). They can accomodate31 coaches until 10/11 or after 10/28. This campground is much more in the center of the attractions in the area. It also only has an open pavillion for meetings or meals. Sites and roads are crushed stone.

My recommendation is to lock up sites in Branson and to not delay. We are requiring so many sites that not only are we limited in campgrounds to accomodate us, but we are really pushing it expecting six months to be an adequate lead time for reservations.

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Jon, Is Branson the same as Riverside RV Park ? Looks Great and centrally located.

Jim,

The discussions have covered two separate areas. Branson, MO and Pigeon Forge / Gatlinburg, TN.

I would suggest all efforts to pick and reserve a site should be on Branson. I think after that rally the numbers of POG members will support east and west side rallies, with one national. It is clear from today's trip that when you say 50 coaches campgrounds have a hard time fitting us in. We really need to be working on a schedule a year out.

I do think for a spring 08 eastern rally we should be thinking about where and when right now, and in October we need to be considering the fall 08 rally.

I hope the western rallies include Las Vegas or San Francisco. That will be a good excuse to visit each.

BTW, this is just my opinion, but whenever a group member visits a campground that has all the desirable features and can accomodate a rally in April or October that information should be posted for consideration. None of the campgrounds I visited today matched Buckhorn, and only two matched Santa Fe, and one was in between Buckhorn and Santa Fe in features. The area however has plenty for everyone.