Brand comparisons

[jelmore]

We are buying soon in the $300s (first time) and have some choices. While looking for a coach, almost all are being sold by dealers. We've found very few for sale by individuals. Is that just not done or is it impractical for an individual to make a sale? I don't think we can afford to keep up with the rest of you for more than a year or so. I wonder if we are going to be in trouble when it comes time to sell.

I've noticed that almost every Liberty and Marathon we've seen is in very good condition. Other converter's coaches seem to have more mileage and more interior wear. Saw the paint on one that was checked and crazed like old vinyl on fiberglass, but was $100K less. Vogue/Vantare seems a little inconsistent in style and their company has sure changed hands frequently -- just don't know about their quality and resale value.

Would anyone care to discuss various converters, their reputations, their resale value, etc.? I don't want to start a brand war and you folks don't seem the type, but if this would be better off-list then that's fine. We would welcome any advice.

[garyde]

This is one subject you will find plenty of info . Read thru some of the previous months posts on this subject. You can also do a search for an individual converter. There are not that many converters out there, so it gets down to what you like, what you want to pay, and what condition the Bus is in. Gary

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

jelmore;We are buying soon in the $300s (first time) and have some choices. While looking for a coach, almost all are being sold by dealers. We've found very few for sale by individuals. Is that just not done or is it impractical for an individual to make a sale? I don't think we can afford to keep up with the rest of you for more than a year or so. I wonder if we are going to be in trouble when it comes time to sell.

JIM,Most of what you ask has already been discussed. So there is a good bit of information for you to get going with.(read the existing posts. all of them!) That said I am an advocate of new and more discussion on any topic, as this group and all involved are dynamic and ever changing in equipment, experience and outlook to name a few.
Some answers from me as a prospective owner: There are many busses for sale by the individual owner and from what you say about your experience I would not recommend that approach. Why, because you will be chasing all around the country and will not be able to refer back to any for comparison without a lot of travel. You also have to rely on your own expertise ( which you state you have none) to evaluate the bus. The owner will always say his buss was well maintained and that there is nothing wrong with it, etc., etc.. In a location unknown to you (where the bus is for sale) to get a PDI or DD inspection you will also have to search out a repair/service center that is cost effective and with a good reputation. If it is far away and at two different places it could run into a bit of money. It is also better to go through a dealer as you will be dealing with a company and agent that will be there ( tomorrow) if you need them. Also you can negotiate with the agent who can convince the owner to negotiate the price better than you directly with the seller. Most owners take great pride in their buss and when you start to pick it apart for a lower price all hell breaks loose and nothing happens. When you buy from the dealer if the PDI shows up certain deficiencies they can probably fix them all for you and even update or modify certain things that you are not happy with. Again you are developing a relationship with a facility that you can go back to for your future needs ( they will be happy to see you) and not ( who are you? where did you buy your bus?). It is also important that your wife be happy with the buss. If you travel together as you should most women will not stand for being dragged around the country to look at busses. Most women are more concerned with the inside of the buss and the decotations and livability and they well should be. They are not going to be too interested in looking at all the mechanical systems and shiny metal in and out in all the nooks and crannies as must be done ( ass protection). You could pre inspect but then when you brought her in if she did't like it you are wasting money and time. You will start to argue and the pressure to buy increases. Then before you know it you are making the wrong decission and buying the wrong buss. At that moment you just lost your ass. You will soon be unhappy and will have to get a new buss or decide to get out of bussing. It's also about traveling a great distance just to see a piece of crap. ( some sellers show pictures of the buss the way it looked when they bought it).

I don't understand your question:confused: I don't think we can afford to keep up with the rest of you for more than a year or so?). You said you wanted to fulltime. Well you won't have the house and all that expense and with the buss you can do many things that you can not with the house. Did you mean you can't take that long to find a suitable bus, or that you don't want to full time for more than a year or so? Can't help with those answers their for you.
For myself, I do not have a buss at this time for personal and family reasons and not because I can not find one. There are a great many busses for sale at any particular time and with a little effort on your part looking in the right places you should be able to find the perfect buss for yourself. My approach has been to educate myself about the buss in a voyeuristic manner so that when the time is right I can jump right in and go bussing.
By wondering if you will be in trouble when it comes time to sell, you mean will you loose your ass. Only you can control that. If you buy right you will not. Chances are though you will not make money or even break even. The buss is a depreciating asset not an appreciating investment. It has high maintenance requirements (especially if performed by other than you). It is not like housing where you can usually turn a profit. There are quality of life issues that one can not put a price on, different strokes for different folks, also there are things in life that are important in ways that can not be rationalised in dollars. You must keep the buss up or then you will be in trouble and loose in the end ( only the scrap man will buy a junker).
Enough for now if you want more just ask.

Gook luck to you! Jim and Linda :D

PS Come to POG 3 in Kerville,TX You will see many beautiful busses and people and then be able to buy right!;) JIM

[truk4u]

Jim,

Do your homework and find the bus that fits your needs and price. Don't fall into the "buy at a dealer only trap", there's plenty of ways to check out any bus that's for sale.

Ask all the questions you want, that's what we're here for.;)

[lewpopp]

Jim C.,

When is the time going to be right for YOU to step out? We will hlep push you over the edge if you need a push. The "poor guy" wants to get off the fence and you give him a lot of good info but you must have your -uts caught on a spike on that fence. Just wondering.

Lew

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is just an observation, but as a bus gets into the $300,000 range the marketplace has done a very effective job of evaluating and ranking the products of the various converters.

If you look at a sufficient number of coaches in the marketplace what I think will emerge is a very clear picture of the fact that for those dollars you can get a 1999 Brand A, or a 1996 Brand B. The newer coach for the same dollars is less valued by the market than the older coach for the same dollars. That valuation can be based on a variety of factors such as a converter no longer being in business, or a coach being recognized as a high quality conversion or one sold with 100% support or one sold with no support.

In that price range there are some terrific values and yet there can be some real dogs.

Before you just jump in and look at the coaches in that range you really do need to define your needs. And when you do find your coach you will have a "Eureka" moment.

[jelmore]

This is just an observation, but as a bus gets into the $300,000 range the marketplace has done a very effective job of evaluating and ranking the products of the various converters.

We've been looking pretty hard now for a few weeks and what you say has become apparent. Quite a learning experience.

I'm having a hard time justifying the value of a top line 1997 (that we love the interior of) with fewer "features" going for more than a different top line that is newer (2000) with fewer miles and a lot more "features". I'm calling features things like remote electric or air dump valves, chairs, deluxe outdoor entertainment, private water closet lavatory, outside refrigerator/freezer, joeybed trays, built in basement drawers, 50 amp cord on a reel -- those kinds of things that would seem to make full time such a better time. We just left a "manual" coach and thought we could do a lot better. But, if a dinette is the ticket, then is that worth SO much more? Or is that brand worth that much more? It doesn't matter so much going in as it does going out.

And what of the coaches with all the bells and whistles, but with a bit of an unstable converter ownership? They are still around with several service centers, but their used coaches bring considerably less, or rather, it seems they offer so much more for less.

Maybe just because we're new, the "features" seem pretty important. Maybe they're not?

Any advice is welcome, expecially from full timers.

[Ray Davis]

Maybe just because we're new, the "features" seem pretty important. Maybe they're not?

I know I did this when looking, and Ben Wilmore (whereisben.com) did the same. I constructed a spreadsheet (could have as easily been done on a piece of paper). On the spreadsheet, I came up with all the categories/features that I felt were at least somewhat important to me. Then to each one of those I assigned a weight from 1 to 10.

Then for each bus I considered, I filled in the blanks, from 1-10 and got a score for every bus I considered. Maximum score would have been a score of 10 times the number of entries on the scoresheet. Although this couldn't for sure chose "the" bus, it very quickly ruled out the ones which were not contenders, and grouped the few contenders at the top of the list.

Don't include just features, but any aspect of the decision that you may feel is important. Unknown maintenance history? Need new tires (that's $6k right there). Nice, but needs a paint job? That's another $15k-$30k. I think you get the idea.

Afte awhile you'll find that you'll start adjusting the weightings as you get a feel for what's more important to you. That's why a spreadsheet is nice.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

It is easy to minimize the value of some features such as those you listed. I can't imagine that an air dump valve is going to make or break a deal, but collectively a lot of the features you listed make the use of the coach more pleasant.

A hose reel seems ridiculous until you have hefted the kind you wind up in the mud in the rain, and then have to throw that mud spattered 50 pound bundle of wire into a nice clean bay.

A joey bed seems silly until you have crawled into the middle of your bay to try to get an air hose or some other rarely used device.

What I am suggesting, especially on a used coach where you actually pay little or nothing for these features these all tend to tip the scales in favor of the coach that has them.

[Loc]

Jim & Linda

When we began our search for a bus 5 years ago, I had very vague ideas of what I wanted. My budget was $200K or less and I did know that I wanted a bus with all bus windows and updated headlights and taillights (generally a 92 / 93 or newer) so that I could say it was newer in case the campgrounds had a 10 year rule. I didn't have much / any knowledge about converters. I looked at a dozens of buses via the internet. There are several sites that focus on pre-owned (sounds so much better than used) Prevosts (including the prevost-stuff.com site). I found a bus that I liked (not loved) and bought it because I had the fever. I purchased an 92 Angola (who was in business at the time and extremely helpful). I got a low price (now I know why) fully expecting that I would have to put some money back into it in order to bring it up to par. We spent about 15% of the purchase price to replace tires, batteries, airbags, rewiring the generator, replacing injectors, etc. Since the purchase, we have replaced / rebuilt a lot of items on the bus, some because they needed repair, some because I was concerned about reliability given the age of the component (like the roof ac's). We have put way too much money into the bus including a new paint job, engine rebuild, etc.

Under the category of if I had only known then what I know now, I would have done it differently. My list of must haves for the next bus include: 1) floor plan that I really like (sure you can change it but that gets expensive); 2) paint job that I like (again you can change it, but $$$$$); 3) a converter that is know for quality and support and that is likely to be around for years to come (having a converter that knows the bus and can / will provide assistance is invaluable); 3) Absolute evidence that maintenance has been a top priority (not only records, but apperance to confirm - I am waiting for Jon to sell his coach, because it is probably better than new); 4) Then I start to focus on the little things (axle weights, OTR air, cord reel, generator hours and exhaust location, invertors, bay storage, entertainment features, etc.). Each is important and any negative in any category could stop the purchase.

Where I went wrong on our current bus was number 2 and number 3. On number 2 - we have repainted the coach after having it for 3.5 years. It would have been much easier and cheaper to pay a little more upfront for something that had an attractive paint job. On number 3, this is where I really didn't do a good job. The coach appeared is so-so shape (not great shape). I had it checked out by a reputable shop, but that really didn't indicate the problems that I would encounter. I have looked at a couple of buses lately including a 2000 model. I walked away from the 2000 because the PDI indicated lots of little things that concerned me about the owner's care of the coach (the tires were original - 7 years old, several windows were delaminating, the genertor needed servicing and wouldn't start because "it needed a new battery", a number number of other items that when considered as a group made me question the owner's treatment / maintenance of the bus). I wouldn't purchase a bus (original MSRP of $1.2 million) and then neglect so many things which as a percent of purchase price are inconsequential and I don't think that I am overly maintenance focused.

That being said, when I purchase my next pre-owned bus I will probably (not absolutely) limit my scope to Marathons and Libertys because of how I perceive the quality of their product, their willingness to stand behind it, and the likelihood that they will be survivors in the bus conversion business over the long haul. I will probably (not absolutely) not purchase from the dealer because when I have talked to both Marathon and Liberty their prices are unbelievably high compared to what I see comparable units selling for by individuals in the market. Granted I have only tried to negotiate with one of them and didn't get very far. I will definitely pay the money for a quality PDI and try to bribe one or two of the members of this board to accompany me to inspect any potential purchase. I will try not to fall in love with the bus before purchase, although that's what I said last time.

This is not to say that other converters don't do a great job (I happen to like the layout and systems on my Angola other than the heaters), but I Angola is no longer in business and that is a big negative in my mind and when it comes to needing support on the coach.

[Just Plain Jeff]

We basically had great luck with the 89 Angola. We got it in 99 from the original owner who would make the most finicky POG member cry with his attention to detail. Each and every system was upgraded as needed and it was impeccable. He was 82 with a wife of about 50 and was trading in for another Angola...and then got yet another one within a year of that.

The systems were straightforward, completely operational, easy to access and we should probably never have sold it except for the %^&*( heaters as Loc mentions. For the uninitiated, Angola and some others used Espar heaters, which are German products used, supposedly for truck cabs and commercial excavation equipment for cabs. They are small units that have a turbo diesel-fired chamber. When they work, they are loud, usually drip diesel fuel and blow so hot and dry you could fire up a kiln with them. When they don't work, you are SOL.

We were in Colorado and on a fling, decided to investigate a Webasto retrofit. Since the coach had OTR a/c and heat, it was my thought that somehow we could tie into that system and sneak away into the night with a way to beat the system. Not so. The only answer was to run an entirely new circulating system with zone controls and heat exchangers through the base channels in the OTR system. Vehicle systems gave us a quote of $18K for the job and a repair shop in Florida came up with $17.5K for the upgrade.

Looking back on it, I have mixed feelings about whether or not we should have gone ahead with the upgrade.

My biggest gripe about the Angola is that somewhere along the line they forgot to insulate the walls and ceilings in the coach which made it very noisy and demanding of air/heat. When it rained you couldn't hear the TV set.

Helen's point of view on looking for a coach is this: "If the sales guy wants to sell you a new camper, they ought to let you stay overnight in it and see if you really like it. They (she's big on they) shouldn't expect a guy to buy something for hundreds of thousands of dollars after looking at it for ten minutes."

Now that's wisdom.

[shookie]

hello jelmore...was in same situation as you a few months ago....decided on a liberty coach...this was our 12th coach, but our first bus...took alot of advise from the pog group...no disappointments here...i am not saying liberty is the only credible converter...i am saying liberty has more than satisfied our needs for a bus...there are others...marathon's name surfaces when speaking of quality and service...no experience with this fine organization from this individual...however, keep kicking tires, looking and asking...you will make the correct decision...good luck...shookie