Time for house batteries need advice

[Dthomas9572]

Hello All,

It is time to replace my house batteries. I have 2 Trace 4024 inverters currently with 8 big house batteries. They are NAPAs and I want go with Lifelines. Any recommendations on how to proceed.

Thanks

[Donnie Myers]

What year and conversion? Are they 8D or 4D?

[truk4u]

If you’re near Sanford, Donnie can fix you up, if not, contact me for your Lifelines, the price will be right. Trans-Specialists RV Batteries (http://www.trans-specialists.net/)

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[Dthomas9572]

Hello,

My conversion is a 1998 Featherlight and I am not sure if 8D or 4 D...I will take a look soon and let you know.

Thanks

[Dthomas9572]

Hello,

I looked and they are NAPA 4D batteries, I have 8 in my 1998 Featherlight conversion. There is about 1 inch of side room which I assume would allow me move up to 8D. I don't do a any dry camping except some overnight stays at a Walmart when on the way to a location.

I would like to be able on my overnights when not on shore power (on cool times when AC is not needed) to be able to have power for my Fridge, chargers ect to be able to run without kicking my generator on.

Thoughts on 4 D vs 8D. I notice Gil, you have said you run 2 batteries and that is enough for the basics. For me it is the budget I want to spend. I do what to go with Lifelines. If I had all the money the world I would get 8 8D batteries, but I need to be conservative.....thanks!!

[Gil_J]

Not sure where I said two would be enough. It could be for a 12V coach, but a 24V coach should probably go with 4 or more 4D or greater batteries. When I reengineered my DC system I went with 4 4D batteries and, for our use, works. FWIW, I run 2 roof airs off of my inverters, but only when the engine is running.

[truk4u]

Dthomas,

This difference between 4D and 8D is the 4D is 8.7” wide and the 8D is 10.9 wide. Height and length is the same, 4D is 210 AH and 8D is 255 AH. The difference in price is 105.00.

[Donnie Myers]

Hello,

I looked and they are NAPA 4D batteries, I have 8 in my 1998 Featherlight conversion. There is about 1 inch of side room which I assume would allow me move up to 8D. I don't do a any dry camping except some overnight stays at a Walmart when on the way to a location.

I would like to be able on my overnights when not on shore power (on cool times when AC is not needed) to be able to have power for my Fridge, chargers ect to be able to run without kicking my generator on.

Thoughts on 4 D vs 8D. I notice Gil, you have said you run 2 batteries and that is enough for the basics. For me it is the budget I want to spend. I do what to go with Lifelines. If I had all the money the world I would get 8 8D batteries, but I need to be conservative.....thanks!!

Do yourself a favor and replace them with 8 4D Lifeline AGM batts. You do not have a separate generator battery and you require the capacity for the system to operate as designed and need the reseve capacity to start the gen when the voltage drops to the autostart set points. DO NOT let someone tell you different. If they do, give them my number 386-473-9078

[Dthomas9572]

Thanks Donnie,

I will replace with the 8 4D as you advise. Jim of VIP speaks so highly of you and your knowledge of Featherlight conversions. I really am making sure I take care of my Trace inverters. Do you have any advise on:

1) Steps to make sure they are protected as I replace the batteries.
2) What setting on the inverters to make sure life of batteries are as good as possible.

I rarely ever let my batteries go down as I usually am driving or plugged in. I do notice that when I take a drive and plug back into shore power the trace goes to bulk charging for a while...is this good on the batteries?

Thanks!

[Donnie Myers]

Thanks Donnie,

I will replace with the 8 4D as you advise. Jim of VIP speaks so highly of you and your knowledge of Featherlight conversions. I really am making sure I take care of my Trace inverters. Do you have any advise on:

1) Steps to make sure they are protected as I replace the batteries.
2) What setting on the inverters to make sure life of batteries are as good as possible.

I rarely ever let my batteries go down as I usually am driving or plugged in. I do notice that when I take a drive and plug back into shore power the trace goes to bulk charging for a while...is this good on the batteries?

Thanks!

If you are a customer of Jim's, he can provide the documentation I created for shutdown and start up procedures for both #1 and #2.

When you plug the coach in or start the gen after it has had no a/c power for a short time, the inverters will always go to bulk. They should not stay in bulk long. If one tends to stay in bulk while the other has switched to float, have Jim give you the documentation I wrote up that shows you step by step how to force the inverter to float.

[Gil_J]

No disrespect, but the primary factor for establishing your battery capacity is the wattage required over time and available space. The second factor is maximum total load the battery bank is expected to support.

Your over time calculation has two subsets. Total wattage with no charging source, such as when dry camping. The other is loads in excess of what the charging source can supply. This would be when idling or idling at a rest stop.

Batteries have a limit on how much current they can supply at once. This will establish your minimum bank capacity.

My coach supports 2 roof airs and a host of other needs, like most other coaches with 2 Trace 4KW inverters. My setup uses 4 4D batteries, which is the smallest practical bank capacity for my coach's maximum load. We have dry camped using our AquaHot, no air conditioners, and typical house systems. Using a practice many if us former boaters use, we start the generator for about an hour or two in the morning to cook, make coffee, and top off the batteries. We do the same at dinnertime. With this routine, and our typical loads to include heating coach with our 3 zone Aquahot, our generator never was called upon. It's rare for us to dry camp. So, rarely would my batteries be subjected to this depth of discharge.

As for Featherlight's lack of deducated generator start battery, I'm not really a fan. They do have the option to start from either house or chassis batteries. Without adding a battery, I personally would rely on my chassis batteries to start the generator eliminating any risk the house bank was too depleted to start the generator. Yes, I know the generator doesn't require much power to start. I'm not suggesting a change, but adding a generator battery would be easy. It would maintain its charge through a Balmar Duocharge device that would both limit its charge from the house bank and allow for a different charge protocol, if needed.

Early on Featherlight coaches were the coaches of NASCAR. As such, they were built with the intention of supporting prolonged battery use.

In confident some conversions were equipped with a huge complement of batteries simply driven by marketing fears and stated metric of what that bank capacity would afford a buyer. Take my last coach, a 98 Country Coach conversion with a bank that was equipped to hold 8 8D batteries and typically sold with 6 8D batteries. This was a 12V coach with 2 2500 watt inverters and no possibility of powering air conditioning. This was a dry camper's dream coach. It spent 3.5 days on a ferry with nothing running but the refrigerator. After that time the bank was still at 70% of capacity. While CC was installing 6 big batteries, Liberty's 12V coach had 3 batteries hidden out of sight.

I have participated in the bank size reduction on several coaches with not a single owner disappointed in their decision.

Some owners like to spend a lot if time off the grid and don't want the noise of a generator. These are great candidates for lithium battery banks and solar.

The bottom line is your use should dictate your battery bank's capacity. If you don't the potential excess weight of an oversized bank or $1,200 per 24V battery equivalent, fill the manufacturer"s battery storage area.

[Dthomas9572]

Hello,

Currently I have (NAPA 8000 Series Battery BCI No. 4D 1050 A) which cost $257.00. They are wet acid. With the lifeline AGMs what performance can I expect.

Thanks

[MDIGUY]

I just purchased directly from manufacturer, delivered on a pallet very quickly and very new date codes.
took old batteries in for scrap, got 300 bucks back, to me a good deal.

[Donnie Myers]

Gil, we had a conversation in which I explained the reasoning. Featherlite Coaches was the official coach of NASCAR all the way to the last coaches built in Florida. Not to mention many other motor sports groups as well as horse shows where there is limited to no power. The Cruise airs draw 15-17 amps versus your 12-14 amp roof airs. The Cruise airs are much less efficient than the roof airs and will run much longer. The audio/video circuit with sat receivers etc. will draw 8 a/c amps even with receivers and components turned off. The bay refrigerator and main refrigerator can draw a continuous 6-10 amps. Then take a customer who doesn't know better and runs the forward and aft indirect lights not realizing they will draw 12ac amps each and, well, when you do the math, the "average" customer needs the reserve battery capacity of 8 4d Lifelines to auto start the generator.

As for starting the gen off the chasis battery...that rotary switch is there as an emergency start for gen in case the house batts are too low to start the gen. I was responsible for that switch being added. The previous coaches had a "batt boost" switch in the MDP that would not energize when house batts low. A Featherlite customer should NEVER have that switch set for chasis (or how it labeled "coach") as you cannot depend on the chasis batteries to even be charged after setting for a two week period. If the customer accidentally turns off the chasis 24v charger or the solid state marine charger fails, the chasis batteries will be dead in as little as two weeks due to circuit breakers 19-21 drawing power even with disconnects off since they are wired directly to the batteries. We have covered this before.

As for adding a generator battery, that is an option. I'm not a fan of an additional battery when it is not necessary. The way the system is set up, it is a great tell-tale sign that the house batteries need addressed if the auto gen starts acting up. For a hands on guy like yourself, these types of alterations can make some sense. Featherlite made a coach for specific purposes and they are very good at it. I will agree, as we discussed, the person that goes from plug to plug or runs the generator when they get in the coach and never turns it off until they plug into shore power, I don't have a problem with a smaller bank.

As for lithium, that is a whole different discussion. I have been around since the beginning of lithium installs in coaches and the results over time were well less than stellar. I realize times have changed and advancements have been made but I am not convinced as of yet. From my limited experience with them, they appear to like near perfect charge/discharge conditions and in our business, that can be a stretch for the "average" coach owner. Lifelines can take a lot of abuse.

Something I learned the hard way..The customer that dry camps and runs NOTHING but the refrigerator and draws the batteries down very slowly with a very low amp draw discharges the bank so deeply that the gen can have a hard time starting! I have had this occur with only a couple customers that sleep with the windows open! I had one coach that owner that kept complaining the gen would not auto start. We would check it by unplugging coach and running a a/c and gen would start every time! I happened to pull in one morning to see the customer had arrived at the shop over night and I noticed the windows open! I was walking by the coach when I heard the gen make a "clunk" sound several times! His batteries were 3 and a half years old and still had the temp sensors connected.



edit: Another nice feature is, if the coach is at an RV park, plugged in to 50a and the customer is running one a/c on each leg and someone pulls the plug or the breaker trips or whatever the power loss, the system will run the coach loads until it auto starts the gen. The inverter settings for auto start is usually set for 8 hours max run time for gen. If the customer happens to get tied up and doesn't return for a a few days or weeks the coach will be just fine. With fewer or inferior batteries, it will not go as many days. I have seen it too many times.

[Gil_J]

AGM batteries have several benefits over Flooded Lead Acid. First, no maintenance. I can't imagine putting up with the level of effort it would take to do this with many house battery installs without using the overpriced remote watering kits.

For some installations, FLA is not really an option. Some converters installed batteries on an angle, which you can't do with FLA. Although both battery chemistries require venting, many don't vent where they install AGM batteries. If there is any good news to this lack of ventilation it's that AGM batteries only vent when they have been overcharged and are at the point of failure.

AGM batteries have lower internal resistance so they can absorb a huge amount of charge current leading to a faster full charge.

AGM batteries have more discharge cycles. So they will often last longer.

On the flipside, they are 2x the cost. They don't like heat anymore than FLA meaning in some environments they may not provide longer life.

[truk4u]

Mdiguy, you bought Lifelines factory direct?

[Gil_J]

I redesigned my DC power system. I had 4 8D batteries in my engine bay. I'm not a fan of installing $2500 batteries in the heat of the engine bay. I considered using the space behind the fender like Featherlight and Marathon. I dismissed this location for heat and the filthy environment. What I did was rework a bay that was dedicated to my 2 Trace inverters. This forced me to go from 8D batteries to 4D batteries, a slight decrease in total capacity.
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I don't fault converters being creative on where they install their batteries. There are only so many places they can use without impacting available storage or affecting weight distribution. I'm fortunate in that I can dedicate one of my partial bays and still have more than 2 full bays for personal use.

Battery capacity is established by the converter, but an owner's actual use is the only measure that's critical. I'm not suggesting converters do anything different. They are challenged in producing a coach with a power system that supports most of their customers while being mindful of the space required by larger banks.

[Joe Camper]

What is the best price anyone has seen for an 8D Deka?

[Gil_J]

Joe,

Join this and get great battery prices at NAPA. Membership is free.

https://aitaonline.com/

[Joe Camper]

U ever seen a 8D AGM for under 400 over there Gill?

[Gil_J]

Sorry Joe, I assumed your question was for FLA, not AGM.

[Gil_J]

I expect these to be made in China. At $349 you might wonder if these are a you get what you pay for product.

https://www.apexbattery.com/trojan-8d-agm-battery.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAsIDxBRAsEiwAV76N8ziQ62i xgrRlJi18WDKz_J2r8Viy0rXACQg0k0_FicCIxavqpDyRhxoCO 2cQAvD_BwE

[truk4u]

You get what you pay for, 12 month warranty and their own documentation states they should last generally for 36 months.

Buy American, buy Lifeline... I’ve never replaced a 10 year old Apex Chinese battery. I have replaced several 8 & 10 year old Lifelines that were still working, but at end of life.

[Joe Camper]

I use Deka. Liberty put Deka in right up until they went to Lithium ion.

Mine were hand me downs given to me by jack 14r when he got his last Liberty, he is a lifeline guy too, as many others.

I've had these used Deka for over 3 years now making them at least 5 or 6 years old. I have countless deep cycles on them. When they get to float I can completely shut off the chargers to them when stored and they will rest at 13.2 till hell freezes over.

I have a customer in Crosby Texas. A you g man that goes by the name of Wilton. He has owned 15 professionally converted prevo over the years, many Libertys. He swears by them.

This conversation on another thread about reducing a battery bank for lack of need.

The lions share of prevo motorhomes r from pole to pole not boondocking and relying on the battery bank.

Even so I think it is bad stuartship to reduce the size of the battery bank thats wrong on a few different levels in my opinion. For owners who fit this description u folks should consider using Deka it's a great alternative to reducing costs by reducing the size of the bank on a bus that u almost never use the inverter unless u r driving. The difference for a bank of 8 is approximately 4g

The guys who use the lifelines for there extended preformance because of the nessessity do It with good reason. Those owners r a very small fraction of the community.

[Gil_J]

Joe, are the batteries that Liberty was using gel and not AGM?

[Joe Camper]

If u have a coach that goes pole to pole does it matter enough?

[truk4u]

Liberty uses Deka Gel for their non LI replacement. I have nothing against DEKA, if you like them buy them. The price is pretty close to Lifelines these days, but you get a 12 month warranty instead of 5 years with Lifeline. Just compare apples to apples and make your choice. I sell many more flag post than automotive and I haven’t seen a Deka flag post. Look who the Bus conversion AGM choice is, Lifeline.

PS - Special pricing coming for the Prevost Show, stay tuned.

[Gil_J]

Properly charged and maintained quality AGM batteries used pole to pole should last well north of 7 years with 10 years not unheard of.

The best way to save money on house batteries is to not throw them away before their time.

Tom, if you use your buddy's 5 year take-outs, you'll never have to buy batteries ;-)

[Joe Camper]

I found Deka 8D for 340 bucks a piece. What do Lifelines cost?

Am I wrong to think Deka verses lifeline instead of reducing the number of house batteries is a better alternative to reducing cost for those who dont power from inverters for extended periods?

I think now that plastic class A pushers have gotten so pricey that many who r unfamiliar with the costs of maintaining a prevo buy one instead only to find out after the purchase what it costs to operate and maintain one.

I think that group is here participating and growing and it is those folks I'm trying to help.

Just plain Jeff once defined that group insultingly as the crumb catchers. I never forgot that term because I am one myself.

Gill funny your comment to Tom about using the used batts. When I still had my XL I never bought tires for it not a single one. They were all tires others were throwing away. Never had a blow out.

[truk4u]

Joe - Please share the 340.00 Deka 8A8D AGM source, folks will want to jump on that price. I don’t see anything much less than 659.00, my Lifeline 8DA is 645.00.

Gil - I can hook you up for the take outs:)

[Gil_J]

Tom...:D Sure you can :cool:

[Joe Camper]

Anyone who wants Deka for 340 can contact me. I'm curious how much intrest there will be. Maybe I will take on a distribitorship.

[truk4u]

I have a customer that will ace 8 Joe, I sent you a PM.

[Donnie Myers]

Guys, I created a scathing post about Deka batteries and then deleted it because of the worm can it would probably open. Please be aware of Deka warranty. I have a Deka distributor next door and refuse to do business with them anymore due to the warranty situation I experienced years ago. When your battery fails, they want it for 24hrs and will tell you there is nothing wrong with the battery and it’s your charging system! This is not a local isolated incident. I have customers all around the country with the same experience. Years ago Deka was an ok battery. They have gone the way of Interstate batteries and have fallen down the ladder. I have been a master Lifeline dealer since 2007 and sell to a lot of boaters. They are even tired of Deka batteries. I understand that there may be people who like them and will post different experiences than I described but I deal with a lot of batteries from different applications.

if price concerns you and you don’t need the capacity of 8-8d’s or even 8-4D’s then drop to 4 and buy Lifeline. The Deka doesn’t have the capacity nor the reserve in real world conditions as the Lifeline. We have done extensive testing with them. There is a reason they are cheaper. And remember, when one fails in the bank you have to change all of them!

When it comes to warranty, Lifeline is very honest and will honor it without BS! The only time there is an issue is if you still have the temp sensors connected and using Trace 4024 inverters! I will drop the BS flag on that lol

Im not trying nor am I wanting to debate about brands. I am trying to save you money and aggravation. I have a shop full of coaches that we are fixing issues due to “saving money”....just sayin

[truk4u]

Turns out the 340.00 Deka’s aren’t available, but I do have an alternative to Lifeline for those looking for less cost. I have the Relion REV 330 ah, 8D AGM for 526.00 plus shipping.

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[Donnie Myers]

Tom, how much are you selling Lifeline 8D's for?

[truk4u]

Donnie, 8DA is 645.00 and 8DL is 653.00. The show pricing will be better.

[Dthomas9572]

Tom,

What is the pricing on Lifeline 4D? My current batteries have a post and not sure what model of Lifeline I would need. Please advise.

Thanks!

[truk4u]

Tom - 4DA (auto-post) is 541.00 plus shipping. If you can wait, the show pricing will be available from Feb 10th to the 17th.

[Anthem]

I'm going to throw another one out there. I have a lot of experience in batteries. With a boat and RV - yeah you get to try lots of things out. For regular AGM - Lifeline/Concorde make the best battery. The plates are thicker and they can be beat harder than most battieries. . . If you have controlled charging and what not, traction gel batteries are even better, but they do have some special gel charging requirements. But for AGM - lifeline is professional, their specs are accurate and they do stand behind their product.

However, outside of lithium (which has their own considerations for charge/discharge ) - which are almost a perfect type of fit for boat/rv users, except for their complexity - one should consider the new carbon AGM batteries from Firefly. They are rock solid, and avoid some of the pitfalls of AGM - namely they accept more charge for longer and they can be deeply discharged. AGMs should not be discharged greater than 50%, the firefly batteries have been advertised to be fine down to 80% - just like lithiums. . So anyone looking at long life and deep discharge capability and want to stay with AGM - should look at the firefly batteries. .

For people who are always pole to pole - then the expense may not be worth it. . . neither for lifeline either.