Are There Surveyors?

[lewpopp]

If I should run across a person who was interested in a particular coach and it wasn't a dealers(or even it it is), are there surveyors out there who can professionally go through a coach before someone purchases it?

Is there a place where you can look something up like that?

Seems as though the boat surveyors are more visible.

All of the talk I have with potential buyers doesn't seem to impress upon their minds how important it is to know exactly what you are doing. The best or the first thing I tell them is to digest the POG forum ofr a while and get into discussions with people either privately or on the forum.

I have fears of people making quick decisions and wrong ones. I don't really have a nickle in it, but I consider all potential buyers my friends as all of you do.

Lew

[matsprt]

Lew,

I'm finding that the membership fee is some of the best money ever spent. I have been the recipient of information that is invaluable in helping to make my purchase decision. I can not say enough about the off line help I have had from several members. I don't know if there are surveyors lurking out there for buses but there are POG members that have a TON of valuable knowledge !! This is one great group.

I can't wait to meet them face to face at POG III.

Michael

[truk4u]

I think JPJ just volunteered to be our Prevost Surveyor!:p

Quick boat survey story, Karl will appreciate this...

Years ago I bought a 40' Chris Craft in Tampa and had one of the best Surveryor's in the area do the inspection. Other than a few small things, it went well.

On the maiden voyage back to Bradenton, I lost the starboard engine due to high temperatures and had to limp into port on one engine during a miserable storm. 3000.00 later with new manifolds and risers, I was good to go. The Surveyor had even used an infrared gun on the risers during the inspection at full throttle and all seemed good. The moral of this story, s--- happens and things break no matter how good the intentions.:mad:

The best thing going for me now, NO salt water running through my series 60.;)

[lewpopp]

Thank you for the detailed replies and I had the feelings along the same line. I can understand the boats and the Winchester flying machines. I bit more important with those vehicles. We just sit alongside the highway and wait, which is a much better situation than hearing a sputtering engine at 6000 ft and no spare to go to.

Lew

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We who have owned and maintained (either with hands on or by directing others) these coaches are probably capable of doing an orderly inspection of a coach. In the absence of maintenance logs or records it is difficult if not impossible to evaluate the heart of the coach, the engine and transmission.

The engine and transmission condition can be sensed by driving the coach and monitoring the cues such as temperatures and pressure, but a true inspection may have to go far beyond that. Allison and Detroit may have to pull all the codes and even go so far as to drop the oil pans and do an oil analysis. That depth of scrutiny involves time and money.

As far as a survey on the rest of the coach, including the house it involves mostly a visual inspection along with operational evaluations of everything.

I'm not volunteering, but I think there are several on this forum that could do a comprehensive pre-purchase inspection if the bus has been converted by their own converter and is of a similar vintage of theirs. With JDUB's reader a superficial evaluation of the drivetrain could be done.

But let me confuse this a little....These buses break. On one trip everything may work fine, and the next time you start the bus the satellite may have quit. Or the refrigerator may quit or the Webasto may refuse to fire. Every one of us knows s**t happens. Does the surveyor end up eating those repair costs? At what point does the owner accept responsibility for the cost of repairs? A dealer or converter has a margin to work with to cover the unexpected. If a surveyor blesses a coach does the dealer say you now own it as is?

I had a converter do the pre-purchase inspection on my first coach. I bought it from a private party and did not know or understand coaches. I knew when he got done that everything worked, and that once I had the coach I was on my own. Is a surveyor just another set of eyes or is the buyer looking for 100% protection against the unknown?

[Just Plain Jeff]

It is important to carefully define the nature of any kind of inspection.

Bought a boat once that was carefully surveyed by a competent and licensed surveyor in Maine many years ago and it was blessed by him. Of course, on the way from the marina, it blew an engine.

The purpose of a survey is not to get an insurance policy, but to address issues asked by a potential purchaser.

Prevost has a Certified Pre-Owned Coach program for late-model coaches and each and every system is verified to be performing to factory specifications. It is very expensive. Even there you will find a lot of fine print.

So, the task is to give simply an opinion of what is visible at the time of a look-see and the rest is between the buyer and the seller.

There may be a time when there is room for an expert surveying function within the coach-buying community as it evolves for certification and more formal means by which to evaluate an individual vehicle.

And you can be sure there would be a lot of fine print there as well.

[matsprt]

Interesting discussion. My experience mirrors Jons and Toms comments. These things break. Sometimes for no good reason. I like JPJ's view in that it's nice to have an opinion from a uninvolved individual, someone without MPD to give an unemotional overview if you will. Someone that says "yes the mirrors shiny, but did you see the crack in it??"

But I'm comfortable buying from a PP, I realize my warranty is 2 feet or 2 minutes which ever comes first. That's ok with me, I understand the risks I'm taking. I guess it's simply risk/rewards balance. Maybe with a PP sale I get a little better look into how someone has really used it. I may find a real creampuff that never makes it to a lot. I might have better dialog between the actual user/owner that I would not get from a salesman. Thats my reward.

I might drive away and scatter an engine, tranny, fry an electrical system etc...that's my risk. If all the rewards and risks balance out, then thats a deal I'm willing to take. No crying from me later if I get bit by the risk odds.

Always figured if I take it, I break it, I fix it. Racers rules.

Michael

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Open up the door, da light go on.

[Ray Davis]

Sometimes, as JPJ mentioned, just another pair of eyes can be really helpful. Especially in these days of internet purchasing.

Before I knew about POG, in my initial shopping days I ran across a coach in FL. I didn't personally know anyone in FL, and the pictures looked pretty good, and the owner was motivated, etc, etc.

To make a long story short, my son goes to West Point, and I posted a note to the parents network, asking if anyone familiar with motorhomes or buses was in the FL area. A nice familily, familar with larger RV's (but not busses) went out and "were my eyes" for a couple of hours with the purchaser.

In the end, they saved me many hundreds of dollars on an airplane ticket to see a coach I wouldn't have purchased. From what I was told by my "eyes", the pictures on the internet were not 100% truthful to the coach.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Right on Ray, Some sellers show pictures of the bus from when THEY bought it! Of all things can you believe it? :eek: :eek: JIM

[Petervs]

Lewpopp raises an interesting question.

I have purchased many airplanes, a few RVs, one Prevost, a few small boats and one good sized one. We used a marine surveyor on that, and he did a very thorough job inspecting it, but he specifically did not do a determination of the mechanical condition of all systems. Rather he looked them over, and tried to ascertain that they were in working order. A detailed mechanical inspection would have required much more money and a different guy with specialized tools.

In the case of a boat, especially a plastic one, the structural condition of the plastic is much more a big deal than the structural condition of a bus, since previous use can hugely affect the soundness of a boat but probably not the chassis and body of the coach nearly as much. And while both have similar mechanical systems like power plants and living accommodations, other than seeing that they are all there and working, there is often not much you can really do to determine that they will keep working.

In the end if you buy a used bus or boat or whatever, you are paying a lot less than new because you are willing to take on some risk of problems. If you do not want to assume that risk then you should spend $1,000,000+ for a new one. If you buy a really nice used one for $500,000, well, I figure I can afford to deal with a few issues that may come up. Or buy a used one from a reputable converter who offers some warranty and let them make some additional money to cover some of the risk for you.

As with everything else, as you gain more experience yourself you will learn what kind of things to look out for. Many POG folk have gained that experience and seem quite happy to share it with others. Gaining the experiences is really the point of embarking on the adventure anyway.