New owner of Vintage Bus 1980 [Archive] - Prevost Owners Group Forum

Joe Camper

08-22-2019, 11:23 PM

Hey Fred I didn't mean to sound negative but I wanted to prepare you. With a bus that's 35 years old if I were you I find somebody like me who for sure knew what they were doing and I'd have them come out and put that bus up and pull all six hubs right down to the spindles and disassemble it and do an inspection and put it back together. Right out of the box that's what I do. After 35 years only the good Lord knows how many different guys have had their hands on that chassis and additionally there's probably a whole bunch of stuff in there that maybe has never been taken off the bus and if you're planning on keeping it for a while this would be the best way to start. I've had a rash of older coaches this summer I did an 88 in Iowa just like I suggested you do and we found a slew of broken return spring break rollers not rolling anymore huge amounts of buildup and crud tapered screws we had a drill out inner seals starting to leak. Doug is out there he's probably reading this he'll tell you it was his bus. I have a stop tomorrow in Kansas City with an 83 Liberty conversion. This will be an initial inspection to get a parts order going with a new client. This is going to be your vintage the 96 in wide and I haven't seen it yet but I'm pretty sure I know what to expect and I'm going to suggest he do the same thing I'm suggesting to you. I don't know how mechanically minded you are and if you have the aptitude to do these kind of repairs but if you do I'd be happy to coach you through it if you think you can.

Who's the converter? How much service history came with it?

Norm you got to start returning your calls. I tried to hire Gill for a gopher but he wouldn't do it I don't know whats the matter with him. Offered to supply him with a ditty bag and everything. He'd probably want you to have somebody polishing his wheels before he hits the road with it every time or cry like a baby. flyboys u know, prima donnas.

Joe Camper

08-22-2019, 11:42 PM

15744

Hey Gill, these dont fly, aint that somthin!!! No air conditioning either.

truk4u

08-23-2019, 07:34 AM

M113, no A/C but will bring serious smoke......

BGLogistics

08-23-2019, 08:44 AM

Fred - at the risk of making Joe's head swell, he is probably the best thing could happen with your bus. He will treat it like his own. And....as a bonus....if he comes to you maybe he can detour thru the Portland area. I think he likes it there:)

Gil_J

08-23-2019, 04:16 PM

Tough crowd!

Joe, just know the Air Force doesn't need a truck and trailer to get us to the job. Here's another very important aspect of being an enlisted Air Force member. We are the only service that salutes our officers as they depart for the war front while we remain a safer distance at our forward operating bases. All others are on the front lines being directed by their officers.

Hey military officers, I'm not showing any disrespect especially for my Air Force officers that go into harms way.

Joe Camper

08-23-2019, 04:52 PM

You know I love you Gill. I've been gone for 3 and 1/2 Weeks and I think I'll be scratching my dog's belly tomorrow before the sun goes down. Once by Peterbilt starts smelling them Home Fires there's no holding her back

freds

08-31-2019, 12:18 PM

Ah, the command post version the M577A1 was my ride when I was in the Army absolutely loved that vehicle!!!! Eleven tons of aluminum foil LOL!

freds

08-31-2019, 12:42 PM

15853

Hi Everyone

Thanks for all the great replies. I have gotten the bus home, after putting on new tires.

Not sure who the original converter was; it looks it has had multiple do overs on the living space a number of times.

It also has a dash conversion that was halted mid stream with just enough working gauges to make it road able.

Lots of non bones system problems that need to diagnosed and documented. The previous owner wasn't big on electrical stuff and tended to bypass things when there were problems.

It has about 140K miles on it, (a guess since the speedometer, stopped working a couple of years ago, according to the seller).

My initial immediate task list is:

1. Fix diesel/prime leak on the Kohler 12.5KW 12.5ACOP63 generator.
2. Speedometer
3. Weak Jake brakes, manual says three position switch off,low and high. New dash just has off/on.

PS. Sorry about the sideways picture, tried rotating it to no effect.

Joe Camper

08-31-2019, 02:32 PM

thats a damn good looking bus. do it right.

freds

09-19-2019, 03:26 PM

Hi Everyone

Been doing some research on my bus and reading the forum. I have gleaned from the forum that I should do the following action items:

1. Register as the current owner
2. Open an account for parts
3. Request the manual on CD disk

I have tried calling Prevost multiple times and wind up in telephone tag where they don't know what I am talking about or go into call back limbo.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Fred

Gil_J

09-20-2019, 08:24 AM

You can download all of documents from PrevostCar.com The older the model year the less likely you'll find clear copies of all of the documents.

freds

09-29-2019, 01:52 PM

Just an update on the Jake Brake problem. It turns out their is level one and level two Jake brakes. I believe the level one (low) position involves a couple of cylinders per bank and level two does all the cylinders.

Anyway when you have level two the low position is to activate just one bank and the high position is activate both banks which requires the three position switch.

The wiring diagram for my bus indicated only one control wire from the front to the back, which is what you need for level one. More wires are needed for level two control. So the operator manual indicating a off/low/high switch was a red herring.

I found the wire from one bank hanging loose and not attached to the throttle buffer switch.

Before reconnecting I measured the resistance on the connected bank and the disconnected bank.

The connected bank was 16 Ohms and the disconnected bank was 24 Ohms.

Simply attaching the wire did increase the effectiveness, however still not a robust response or change in the exhaust sound when engaged.

However when I turn if off while engaged it is more a definite effect/feedback.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/JakeBrakeSwitch.jpg

Looking from the back of the engine; yellow is a wire going to the left bank, red is a unused terminal and blue is a wire going to the right bank of the engine that isn't hooked to anything.

Below is picture of the wire coming out of the right bank and there is similar one on the left bank.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/RightHandJakeBrakeWire.jpg

freds

12-26-2019, 02:31 AM

Fixed the speedometer, got to looking at the circuit diagrams and it showed four wires for connections.

Pulled the speedometer and only three were hooked up!!! After tracing wires the missing wire was the power wire, fished around in the dash and couldn't find anything that looked like it would reach.

Anyway the previous owner stated that it used to work, but hasn't for the last couple of years, so a bit mystified as to how it could have previously functioned without a power wire.

Provided a replacement power wire and it immediately started working again.

Gil_J

12-26-2019, 07:34 AM

Fred, great effort. Sometimes you just have to dismiss what a previous owner tells you.

John L

12-26-2019, 03:27 PM

Fred right on, that's a fine looking classic Prevost. I like the older ones the best. Mine is a 96 but that's only cause I insisted on a Series 60. You're hitting the ground running hard, very cool.

freds

03-19-2020, 10:03 PM

Starting to make progress with my DIY hydronic system.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HydronicHeart.jpg

I purchase a used Milwaukee M12 ProPEX expansion tool sometime ago and I have to say that it is a pleasure to use.

The bus YouTube channel "Beginning from this Morning" has a video on using such a tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siWIgm8EKkY

The not so much pleasure is that you have to visit an actual plumbers store to get supplies and forget any of the box hardware stores.

Also this method you have to use PEX A and F1960 PEX style fittings.

You can order from Amazon, but it tends to be larger quantities and generally not available for prime next day shipping. Start your search with "F1960 PEX", lowest price first.

I unfortunately ordered lots of PEX B parts which is not compatible with this expansion tool.

As part of my design I connect the pumps with 1/2 swivel adapters. So that if a pump goes bad it is easy to replace.

These swivel adapters are only economical in PEX B for about $2.00 each, verses $20.00 each as a F1960 PEX A part.

So I elected to hand crimp them with stainless steel rings. Given that I will be using 12-16 of them by the time I am done.

So off to bus to do a test fit and get ready to start running PEX pipe for each heating zone.

Fratto

03-20-2020, 03:09 PM

You will be glad you used pex A. Much better product

Joe Camper

03-20-2020, 10:53 PM

The thing about pecs that I don't like is if you're going to use it the points were it terminates and you make that crimp have to be in the right place so you can get the Big Tool on it. and do it easily Usually there's a lot that you can't get at once it becomes in the owner's hands and they have to make any potential repairs sometimes that could be really tough so be careful where you put the crimps.

That's an interesting tool.

I can't ever seem to do any kind of Plumbing Leak free it just ain't in me I prefer using all the shark bite fittings.I like the idea of the simple disassembly and reusability.

16291

16292

They're expensive and I don't have a lot of money but I still think they were worth buying it makes a way neater finished product and there's no leaks and if I ever have to fix something very easy to take apart.

freds

03-21-2020, 12:20 PM

Hi Joe

Well you are well on your way so no sense changing the course now. My understanding is that SharkBites are great to use as long as can get to them to replace if they spring a leak.

The tool is fairly expensive which is why I brought mine used, though I do think at a used price I paid too much for it.

The joints go together so rapidly, maybe it would be something you could rent?

freds

03-21-2020, 04:18 PM

Actually after you do the expansion of the pipe and collar you have about 15 seconds to slip it over the PEX A fitting. So, you can do quite tight spaces by varying the order of assembly.

Joe Camper

03-21-2020, 05:43 PM

It could very well be a tool that I use only once maybe twice. This isint my camper in the picture I was tasked with the project. I will not gut mine till the last. First I'm constructing the basement/bays next I'm moving windows and doors and siding it THEN comes the inside.

It is going to remain a small coupe. I'll heat it with candles no need for multiple circulating pumps I'll leave all that to u guys.

freds

03-31-2020, 12:40 PM

Making progress on my DIY Hydronics system and I have the zone manifold and distribution piping almost finished.

As you can see from the attached picture that it looks fairly complicated. But it is really not a lot of work. I really, really love the ProPEX expansion tool type of system as it makes doing this kind of work dirt simple.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HydronicManifold.jpg

As you can see I had to fit it into a fairly tight area based on all the previous stuff/hacks that have been done on my bus.

I would like to say that I planned it out with every detail accounted for, but hey the flexibility of this type of PEX A/ProPEX system really works. I made the basic layout based on the minimum recommended pipe segment length which is three inches for 3/4 PEX and two inches for 1/2 PEX.

Also by varying the assembly steps it is easy to work in tight quarters as you have about 20 seconds after expansion to jam the pieces together and allow them to shrink back to a tight fit.

I would say this represents about two full days of actual work to have multiple zone heat distribution for the bus living quarters/bays and it will take another 2-3 days (not counting skull sweat time) to finish the plumbing portion of the system.

Gil_J

03-31-2020, 04:53 PM

What's at the connection between hot and cold? Looks great!

freds

03-31-2020, 08:26 PM

What's at the connection between hot and cold? Looks great!

Check valve, when the pumps for the heat zone are not running it permits flow back the cold intake for storage. When the pumps are energized it closes. At least that's the theory...

freds

05-18-2020, 02:40 PM

Making progress of my DIY hydronic system and was able to run a test on Sunday and will first post what worked!

I filled it slowly with water today from a low point and it has 20 gallons of storage and topped out somewhere around 23 gallons which seems right.

Absolutely none of the PEX connections that I put together using the expansion tool leaked!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HeaterControlBoxInstallation.jpg

Fired up my diesel heater and observed the following behavior:

1. It sat there for a bit of time while I think it did its startup sequence of warming up the glow plug, testing water flow and fan speed.
2. It started clicking the pump loudly which muted down as the pump filled with fuel.
3. Exhaust pipe output a little bit of white diesel smoke.
4. Internal fan speed ramped up and the exhaust started to roar and the output fluid pipe was about 170 degrees (no muffler at this time).
5. When turned off it went through a shutdown and cool down cycle for about 3-5 minutes before fully shutting down.

So I believe that the diesel boiler is functional.

freds

05-18-2020, 02:48 PM

1. Some of the manual connections that i made had slow drips during the water testing phase.
2. The air purge valve didn't seem to work at all, might have had it adjusted wrong.
3. I think there was problems with the check valves that I used in my design, maybe not enough flow rate to fully close.
4. The diesel heater cycled up and down in heat output which might be:

a. Maybe it was programmed with non-standard settings because it was used warm a generator in an arctic settings and hey if the cold coolant is 80 degrees, job is done. I do have a diagnostic kit that I have to figure out how to use with this heater.
b. Check valve was more and likely not fully closing and allowing re-circulation between the input and output to the diesel heater. Maybe I should do a standalone test with a tank of water. Dang, I gave away a rain barrel last month that I could have used for this...
c. Replace check valve for diesel heater with a automatically closing valve as soon as the heater is commanded to start; forcing all flow to pass through the remote diesel boiler.

5. Circulation/stir pump seems to keep loosing prime as I mounted it too high up.

Anyway I was able to bring the storage up to about 110 degrees though the target was 160 degrees, but hey it was a first run!!!

Fratto

05-19-2020, 09:39 PM

Thanks for keeping us posted. Good luck!

chiplamb

05-20-2020, 07:07 AM

1. Some of the manual connections that i made had slow drips during the water testing phase.
2. The air purge valve didn't seem to work at all, might have had it adjusted wrong.

1. Some of the manual connections that i made had slow drips during the water testing phase.
2. The air purge valve didn't seem to work at all, might have had it adjusted wrong.

Fred, by air purge valve do you mean a bus air source to blow out water lines i.e. for winterization? If so please keep that air source valved out reliably (i.e. a manual valve) since there's quite a history of electro-mechanical air/water valves failing (BB) and flooding brakes/suspension full of water.

Joe Camper

05-20-2020, 08:18 AM

I have never seen a prevo with fresh water in the air system or ever heard of it. I'd be amazed if that's the function of the purge. It's for flow not winterizing.

freds

05-20-2020, 07:25 PM

The air purge valve is for removing air from the coolant. Using water right now until I am confident that the system is functioning correctly and then will make 50/50 with food grade glycol for freeze protection.

freds

05-30-2020, 11:36 PM

The last day and half have been a big wiring project for the DIY hydronic heating system that I have been working on.

Anyway, here’s the layout that I came up with, bit more of a rat’s nest then I originally planned, but hey working on getting it wrapped up and done!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/AutomationController.jpg

Also, I am running out of bay wall space. So, I pre-wired everything up on a one-foot square board with extra-long wiring leads and mounted it to the ceiling of the plumbing/electrical bay.

Your basic Raspberry Pi driving two eight channel relay boards. I went with a left over SSD drive for long term reliability; as the typical SDCard can wear out in 2-3 years or sooner depending on the write cycle frequency. Plus the SSD drive is faster...

The functions that it is currently controlling is:

Bedroom heater zone pump.
Bathroom heater zone pump.
Kitchen heater zone pump.
Living room heater zone pump.
Front bays freeze protection pump.
Rear bays freeze protection pump.
Stir/circulation pump.
Pump for Engine preheating and thermosiphon heat recovery.
Pump for Generator preheating and thermosiphon heat recovery.
Diesel Boiler remote on/off.
Electric ball valve to force flow through the diesel boiler when it is on, bypass when off.
Temperature sensor for hydronic tank output.
Temperature sensor for Engine coolant, thermosiphon heat recovery monitoring.
Temperature sensor for generator coolant, thermosiphon heat recovery monitoring.

I still have four relays left over and could add another eight-channel relay board for $10.00 before I max out the Raspberry Pi. All told this could be duplicated for around $120.00

Once all the hardware is installed then it’s software time!!! Something I do everyday in my day job.

Starting with a simple manual over-ride web page with simple touch buttons for each relay function.

Software wise in the long term will be smart scheduling and Alexa voice control integration. Which is easy to do with Internet of Things Node Red software.

Gil_J

06-01-2020, 06:56 AM

Nice work!

Chad Speer

06-14-2020, 08:55 PM

That looks like a fun project. What diesel-fired heater are you using for your system?

JCarrollJr

06-15-2020, 06:10 AM

freds

06-15-2020, 06:49 PM

JCarrollJr

06-15-2020, 08:19 PM

How about posting what you find out. Thanks.

freds

06-20-2020, 11:25 PM

Well I haven't made much progress lately, bloody work has been interfering with my bus project and covad with my social life!!!

Anyway I was able to carve out a day to start tinkering with learning Node-Red and putting together a manual control page for my DIY hydronic system.

Here's what the web page looks like:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/FirstNodeRedDashboard.jpg

And the drag and drop design environment that created this functionality:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/FirstNodeRedFlow.jpg

Ultimately there are going to be old tablets/cell phones scatter about the bus or mounted on the walls that can interact the bus's automation system or heck if the internet is live, ask the subservient lady Alexia to do it for you!!!

Fratto

06-21-2020, 08:15 AM

Wow, this is my first introduction to Node Red ... this looks like great fun. Thanks for keeping us up to date on your project.

Happy Fathers Day to everyone.

Gil_J

06-21-2020, 09:05 AM

Very Cool! I'm curious why you don't trigger the stir pump on with the boiler, better yet use timers for both the boiler and stir pump triggered by calls for heat?

freds

06-21-2020, 02:15 PM

Wow, this is my first introduction to Node Red ... this looks like great fun. Thanks for keeping us up to date on your project.

Happy Fathers Day to everyone.

Thanks for the great feedback. When I get my automatons more done, I will post links to them.

There is also a version of Node Red (Mobile Red $6.00) for android cell phones. I will be using an older one of mine for it's sensors. GPS, Tilt, magnetic heading.

freds

06-21-2020, 02:23 PM

Very Cool! I'm curious why you don't trigger the stir pump on with the boiler, better yet use timers for both the boiler and stir pump triggered by calls for heat?

That will be part of the automation flows as I develop them. Though the way I have the glycol fluid flows designed the pump on the boiler will be the stir pump, not sure I need to run both pumps for circulation while the boiler is on.

The stir pump is to keep the glycol tanks mixed and to provide flow to the heat exchanger for domestic hot water.

I threw together this manual control page as a first step; so, that I can be down in the electrical and plumbing bay and control the system from my phone as I test it out.

freds

06-23-2020, 01:57 PM

Hey Fred,
For some reason, I was just rereading your very first post and something jumped out at me that I didn't notice the first time that I read it. You mentioned waiting for your AAA RV add on to become effective. You might want to check on that RV add on. For years I've had AAA and wouldn't be without it and for years I had the RV Plus addition and felt very secure. At some point in time in a conversation with them they made me aware that the RV Plus option didn't apply to a bus. Only a camper. I don't remember the exact limitations on the RV Plus, but it didn't cover a Prevost based motor coach. I dropped the RV Plus option and went elsewhere for roadside breakdown towing coverage. Again, don't remember all of the details but you might want to check on it.

OK their response was kind of iffy, but after going through a few layers of supervisors the final ruling was that I am covered.

The key point is that the factory considers it a motor home and that it never went into service as a commercial vehicle. Plus it doesn't have transit style folding doors.

However they did clarify that the towing services that they contract with; might and might not be able to handle my size vehicle and they would have to bring someone in from out of the area. So they would not be able to guarantee quick service.

Also if no one was available I would have to make my own arrangement, pay out of pocket and submit a claim for reimbursement.

Given all the above I will not be renewing with them.

So any recommendations for coverage?

Thanks

Pete

06-23-2020, 08:37 PM

Give Coach Net a call, I have had them for years, used them on several occasions for various reasons, blowouts, towbacks from mud, ect. They are well worth the annual fee.

JCarrollJr

06-23-2020, 09:12 PM

I have Coach Net and had occasion to call them very soon after signing on with them. Got stuck on some wet ground. Their contractor came right away and all went well.

Gil_J

06-23-2020, 11:40 PM

I have and used Coach-Net. No complaints.

freds

07-01-2020, 11:45 AM

Time to install the computer after taking it home to learn Node Red and create the web interface; so I could control the system from my phone via the bus's WiFy network from down in the plumbing bay.

Before starting I made sure the diesel boiler was disconnected, as I only wanted to exercise a few of the pumps (pulled the fuses for the others).

Anyway I plugged the Raspberry Pi back in and let it boot up. All of the sudden all the pumps turned on at once!!! WTF is going on?

It turns out that the relay boards that I brought are Active Low once I figured that out it took less then a minute to change the programming in the function node under Node Red that translates true, yes = 1, false, no = 0 for control of the relays.

In hindsight it would make sense to design a external relay board to not trigger on floating inputs that are not hooked to anything, since we are talking digital signals.

I also had to visit the flow nodes for each pin and set the initialization state to logically high. The area's that I changed are circled in blue in the following picture.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/RelayFlowMods.jpg

The acid test is reboot the computer and while it is coming up; nothing should turn on, until it is commanded too after the computer is fully functional.

I didn't have the relay boards to test with before hand as I had already wired them up in the bus. So, I simply unplugged the Raspberry Pi and took it home to do my initial learning curve (not much, really easy to use) with Node Red.

During the drag and drop programming; I had verified that each target I/O pin was responding to commands with a multi-meter.

So anyway that quick adventure is over and I went onto the next phase of running another heating test of my DIY hydronic system.

This time I had much less air in the main loop which is the diesel boiler, tanks and distribution manifold and the boiler fired right up and steadily roared away (haven't installed the muffler yet).

Crap I haven't wired in the temperature sensors yet to the Raspberry Pi.

I can feel the pipes getting warmer, crap where is the IR gun? I finally find it under the bus's maintenance manual on the couch and hey the system is already up to 130 degrees, now we are cooking with diesel oil!!!

I should have left well enough alone and continued to monitor it, but hey I am roaming around with the IR gun checking temperatures. With gun in hand, I think hey lets turn on the other zones via the cell phone and verify that the heater cores get hot. Yes they did, but bad move on my part as that injected more air into the system and the diesel boiler shut itself down again.

So hey par for the course two steps forward and one back.

Did some more research and I think I have a solution to the trapped air problem; so time to do some more work.

Gil_J

07-02-2020, 09:02 AM

More great information...thanks!

BGLogistics

07-02-2020, 09:26 AM

Between Raspberry Pi and Node Red - sometimes one gets a humbling reminder of just how little he actually knows :-)

freds

07-11-2020, 05:51 PM

With my DIY hydronic system I am having problems with purging the system of air.

To give you an idea of the piping flows in my system:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/linedrawing.png

Red = Diesel boiler
Green = Glycol storage tanks
Blue = Toe kick heater cores through out the bus, each with a separate feed and return.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ToeHeaterCore.jpg

The Toe kick heater cores do have a manual bleed valve at each core (In green box).

The diesel boiler really, really doesn't like any air bubbles in the coolant flow!!!

With our land yachts, we have a fair number of similarities to our boating brethren. They just run their engines for longer periods of time and use the waste heat for heating through out the boat. They then run the diesel boiler when they are at anchor and the main engines are shutdown.

In looking at a marine catalog they showed the following diagram.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/MarineExpansionTank.jpg

Basically, their expansion tank also performs a degassing function so that the diesel boiler never sees any air in the system.

I queried the price of such a tank and the starting price was $300.00, hey a bit high for a single component.

I did a bit more research and there is a cheaper solution which is this tank:

https://www.butlertechnik.com/header-tank-plastic-5l-2-outlet-p1723

However, it only seems to be only available in Europe and it was kind of unknown how long it would take to get it. I did try to order from a web site that had a decent price, but they were unable to process either of my credit cards that I was willing to use.

Sent them an email and after a few days of no response I went looking for another solution.

Most automotive surge tanks have one big hose and smaller overflow hose. They are not constructed for the pass through degassing functionality that we need for our land yachts!!!

So anyway I started looking at various surge tanks on Amazon and the largest manufacturer of these types of tanks in the after market is a company by the name of Dorman. However their web site is totally oriented to the OEM replacement market that gives details on the vehicle that they are replacement parts for.

Absolution nothing about the hose sizes, etc. I did an online chat with one of their people via the web site and he was initially unwilling to help me, but hey I persisted:

================================================== ===============================
Kevin:
unfortunately ... unless you look at what tanks we already have available by vehicle, and give us specific numbers to look at hose sizes on them
Freds:
How about a 603-382 Coolant Reservoir?
Kevin:
let me pull the drawing one moment
Kevin:
unfortunately no good drawing for the nipple sizes
Freds:
How about 603-5201 Coolant Reservoir
Kevin:
ok so on that the lower hose nipple is 19mm and the od is 25.4mm
Freds:
Any detail on the uppers?
Kevin:
well they have metal inserts ... on the insert the ID is 18mm
Freds:
Thanks you very much for your assistance!!!
Kevin:
youre welcome
================================================== ===============================

So any way I called the local auto parts store and they ordered one into stock for me to look at the next day!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/Dorman6035201.jpg

The lower outlet hose was one inch which was the same as my last tank and the other two hoses inlets were half an inch.

freds

07-11-2020, 05:52 PM

Turns out going from a half an inch to 3/4 inch is a bit of chore:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SurgeTankHoses.jpg

You first have to convert the 1/2 into 5/8 inch and then 3/4 inch!!! Oh yeah, it also has a sensor hole that needs plugged and takes a 14mm bolt in 1.25mm pitch to plug it.

So anyway I just threw it into the engine compartment before I fabricated a mount for it to test it out.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/TempSurgeTank.jpg

I had partially drained the system before hooking in this tank. I made no special effort to purge air out of the system, simply filled it up and turned the zone and stir pumps on for about twenty minutes.

And hey it automatically started purging air from the system; as it did that you would see the level drop in the surge tank!!! Which I had to top off a few times before the level stabilized.

Time for another test run!!! Pulled out my cell phone and commanded via the bus's web page to start the diesel boiler and hey it fired right up!!!

Simply magic (grin)....

This time there was no hesitation or early shutdowns and the system reached 145 degrees before the boiler started idling.

Since this boiler was part of a military kit for generators in the arctic it may have be programmed for lower set points. I have the diagnostic software and USB interface; will have to figure out how to hook it up and investigate the settings.

But hey a major step forward, time to finish it up!!!

freds

07-11-2020, 05:58 PM

Well made my first mini trip which was a couple hour run to have a crab fest with buds. I was running late so it's a few hours later before getting a chance to look at the numbers.

Here's the engine coolant temperature monitoring of the flow in the heater hoses.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/E1.jpg

The temperature was fairly rock solid at 175 degrees. I think the rapid fall off is simply the cooling of about 20 ft of heater hose. It would have been interesting to kick in a circulation pump for the engine coolant and see what the decline curve actually looks like.

The next graph is for the two glycol storage tanks with a re-circulation pump running.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/H1.jpg

Note the maximum temperature reached was about 125 degrees after a two hour run.

This is with the engine coolant running through one ten gallon tank and constant stirring between the two ten gallon tanks.

In the above graph the increase in the decline is where I turned off the stir pump.

Just for grins, I decided to turn the engine pre-heat and the strip pumps on to see what would happen.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/S1.jpg

So it looks like my automation needs a sensor input of is the engine running and as long as the engine coolant is warmer the storage glycol harvest more heat by circulating the engine coolant.

I probably also should consider insulating the pipes...

Joe Camper

07-12-2020, 08:32 AM

Fred that's pretty special. U r not suppose to be going anywhere cold.

Really.......what do u have planned next? I'm wondering.

Thst was a boatload of smarts and effort. Well done.

U and Chad from KC, he's here, 84 Liberty, u 2 need to get hooked up. U both went to different schools togeather.

Please tell whats next.

POG should do a community bus and build one from scratch with input and labor from all. Design and everything. Inagine how that might turn out with all the talent and input here. If it ever got done LOL

We would need a Donor and the barn and we could get started. could plan get togethers around it. Even better, Do 2, an east coast verses west coat then sell them and see who looses more. And then we can do it again.

freds

07-13-2020, 01:20 AM

Hi Joe

I am equipping the bus to live in full time and really planning on chasing 70 degree weather around the country; with lots of boondocking.

However, I do have family and friends in Wyoming and Montana; so not ruling out cold weather adventures.

I will be doing more Node Red IOT automation's, next up is the climate control for the hydronic system and the air-conditioners. There is a Wify switch that is less then $20.00 that I will install in each air-conditioner which will bring them under computer control.

I am also going to do power monitoring; so, it will automatically shut down the inverter to eliminate phantom power draw when AC power is not needed.

The inverter already responses to voice commands "Alexa, power on or power off" as the first step in automating it.

So after I finish that out, I am going to put a boat load of solar on the roof, remove the refrigerator/freezer absorption unit and replace with a more efficient DC compressor and then work on the kitchen. I am not too great on carpentry, so just going to make it functional for now.

One thing at a time. However the bus has a cellular modem and a company router that allows it to participate as a sub net on our internal network. So, it's easy to reach out to the bus to tinker with the software remotely.

I am also noodling away on a automated robotic storage and retrieval system for one of my bays. So, I can say "Alexa open bar" and it will rise up out of the floor. Thinking I can have it store or retrieve a number of different storage units either to the cabin or passenger side bay door if it is open.

Maintenance wise:

1. Diesel generator still leaks diesel
2. Generator needs mounts replaced
3. Generator has to be manually started and stopped. Previous owner removed the run/stop solenoid which was probably a $20.00 part 30-40 years ago, but they want $1200.00 for it now.
4. Cruise control doesn't work.
5. Emergency blinker switch is busted off on the steering column.
6. Previous owner dash upgrade was never finished, rats nest of wires and gauges with inappropriate temperature ranges.
7. Original drivers air-conditioning system is inoperative, might have gotten lost in the dash upgrade. Oh did I mention most of the switches are unlabeled?

So anyway I will be tinkering away for sometime to come...

Ck2hans

07-13-2020, 07:36 AM

With your talents you should change out the dash to the new full glass dash like a lot of the new airplanes have.
Chuck

freds

07-14-2020, 12:41 PM

With your talents you should change out the dash to the new full glass dash like a lot of the new airplanes have.
Chuck

Actually I was thinking of visiting a semi-truck junk yard and finding the CAN based sensors and dash to do just that.

Also a Tesla dash is just just linux computer and display with CAN and Ethernet interfaces.

freds

07-24-2020, 11:59 PM

With your talents you should change out the dash to the new full glass dash like a lot of the new airplanes have.
Chuck

Actually there is a youtube channel named: "This old bus" where he is working on this on a limited scale to have monitoring alerts.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUPMBUwBvtoxf5alQlBMFZ9XTctTIS1fz

freds

07-25-2020, 12:05 AM

With the new surge tank doing the degassing functionality I was able to simplify the hydronic output manifold as it no longer needed an air vent in the mixture.

Here's the old rube Goldberg setup:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/RecentManifold.jpg

And here's the new much simpler layout:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/NewHydronicOutput.jpg

A quick note about this type of electric ball valve. It only draws power when it is changing position, one voltage polarity drives it open and the reverse drives it closed:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ElectricBallValve.jpg

Very important to test it and record which polarity goes to which colored wires before you hookup all the plumbing and can no longer see it!!!

So in my case I use a DPDT relay so that when it is not energized the default voltage polarity drives it to the open position.

Here's the last picture that I have on hand which show's the temperature probe installed into a tee.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/InLineTempSensor.jpg

This sensor is out of view in the picture, but I will now have readings on the feed and exit temperatures for the diesel boiler loop.

freds

07-27-2020, 04:08 PM

Wondering if anyone has a guess as to who did the original conversion on my bus back in 1980?

This is the info that I found online about my bus:

Serial Number M104-2786-80 Motor Home MR80 [Private] Beckley, G.W. Produced in March 1980

Surviving original details that might identify the converter I think is the generator installation in the following two pictures.

Generator Bay:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/GeneratorBay.jpg

Remote Radiator:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/GeneratorRadiator.jpg

The generator is Kohler 12.5KW diesel generator which an external control box; which is not standard with Kohler generators according to a retired expert that they put me in touch with.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/GeneratorBay.jpg

Gil_J

07-27-2020, 04:39 PM

More great information...keep in coming.

Joe Camper

07-27-2020, 04:55 PM

Gil_J

07-27-2020, 05:23 PM

Joe, I'm not sure Barbara Mandrell had a Prevost, but you can buy her Eagle.
http://www.staleycoach.com/49383%20%201993%20Eagle%20Star%20Coach.htm

I believe it was converted by Hemphill Brothers that remains the big daddy of entertainer coach conversions. Wade Staley is a walking history book of early entertainers back when the Calhoun Brothers started. They are still in business as Florida Coach. Another guy that seems to know the old stuff is Michael Gibson of Imperial Coach outside of Dayton, OH. I know Prevost painted a lot of motorhomes, but didn't realize they did a conversion. I think Liberty may be the first, if not one of the first, to convert a Prevost to a motorhome.

freds

07-28-2020, 11:34 AM

Some of the early conversions were done by prevo. Soneone help here. Where is that thread it was quite a bit of very interesting info. 1 was a Barbara Mandrell coach. It had all that info and documentation I did a search and couldn't find it.someone has to remember it.

I think I posted on it before as I had found a site that listed all the Prevost bus delivery's. According to this list in 1980 Prevost delivered sixteen buses marked as motor homes, mine was number 3 and her's was number 6 for that year

Here's the detail record:

[Private] Mandrell, Barbara MY80 Motor Home M104-2818-80 TN

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/TORONTO/builders/prevost7.html

It would be probably interesting to go through this entire source and note the number of buses built as motor homes by year.

PS. This site doesn't allow you to select and copy the text. Work around is simply use chrome and do a view source command.

Gil_J

07-28-2020, 01:33 PM

Very cool information, My converter, Hoffman Coach, has 2 coaches on that list. Two to Liberty. I guess Marathon and most others weren't even born then.

Joe Camper

07-28-2020, 04:51 PM

Thats right it was u Fred. So yours was after these dates? By how much? Gill is right. Send those bus photos to Wayde at Staley he might help.

freds

08-10-2020, 08:14 PM

Here's another piece of eye candy which is a starting inverter management page with graphs of BMS data.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/BmsPage.jpg

And here's the simple five minute effort that it took to construct it.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/BmsPageCode.jpg

There is one error in the graphed data which is the state of charge, as it actually didn't hit 100% today, hence the solar input didn't hit zero at that point.

Gil_J

08-10-2020, 09:13 PM

What a bizarre wattage curve. Is that showing solar charge wattage as the sun moves?

freds

08-11-2020, 02:09 AM

What a bizarre wattage curve. Is that showing solar charge wattage as the sun moves?

Yes and the sun to the west is partially blocked by a hill LOL! This a graph of once a minute readings. Most solar graphs are the hourly or daily averages.

The bus is oriented east to west and panels are for now just leaning up against the bus. Now if the panels were tracking the sun it would be a more even graph...

Joe Camper

08-11-2020, 05:50 AM

Hey Fred what do u know about solar fabric? Its tweaked my curiosity ever since I learned about them.

freds

08-11-2020, 05:04 PM

Hey Fred what do u know about solar fabric? Its tweaked my curiosity ever since I learned about them.

Hey Joe, next to nil other than what the words imply.

In RV usage flexible solar panels are rumored/demonstrated to not last more than a couple of years, so best to go with normal house panels (20yr warranty) is the collective wisdom.

However I just saw a video of flexible panels from BattleBorn being applied to a an RV. Given BattleBorn's reputation in the market, I might give them a second look for the ease of mounting (peel and stick), however I have already purchased all of my solar panels already.

Joe Camper

08-11-2020, 06:16 PM

It seemed like a perfect fit for rving. Awnings, window shades, figured there was good reason its not in play.

freds

08-12-2020, 10:53 PM

It seemed like a perfect fit for rving. Awnings, window shades, figured there was good reason its not in play.

I did a little more reading and solar fabric is supposedly good idea that has yet to reach a prime market.

The closest that I have seen is an air lift-able drum that can roll out a linear sheet of solar panels on the ground for the military which is not a fabric; but a polymer sheet. Still very experimental and targeted at reducing fuel shipments for generators that can be ambushed for remote outposts.

I will believe it when REI has jacket's for keeping stuff powered while you hike in the great outdoors.

freds

08-22-2020, 07:17 PM

My bus was converted about 40 years ago and it has two stainless steel tanks one for fresh water and the other as the combined grey/black tank.

In my reading most RV tank sensors are of the conductive type where they detect the level through current flow through the liquid.

In looking at my black/grey tank I see the following wiring:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/GreyBlackTank.jpg

As you can see there is two wires going to each sensor, what type of sensor do you think it is? Is it a float sensor?

My water tank is up front:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/waterTank - Copy.jpg

And on the back side of the tank it seems to have the four sensors:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/FreshWaterTankSensors.jpg

Which I think are of the current flow type.

There was wires hanging loose that I moved out of the way to take the previous picture. Here's a picture of the wires hanging and not connected to anything at this location.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/FreshWaterTankWires.jpg

Stuffed in a bag I found a JRV Micro Monitor. In looking at the diagram there's a little combiner that converts the multiple sensors on each tank to a single signal line back to the monitor.

It looks like the monitor would have come with three combiners and two of them appear unused; with one of them in the disconnected wiring mess near the fresh water tank. Which leads me to believe that the monitor was only used for the fresh water tank.

Looking for feedback/advice here as to figuring out what I have here and how to test the sensors.

Thanks

Joe Camper

08-22-2020, 09:28 PM

What if any display or panel is in the cabin? The wiring on those 2 tanks r definitely decades apart thats my guess. How important is it to u to retain that original stuff? U could real easy put new.

freds

08-23-2020, 11:56 AM

What if any display or panel is in the cabin? The wiring on those 2 tanks r definitely decades apart thats my guess. How important is it to u to retain that original stuff? U could real easy put new.

I guess it is not important and now the determining factor is finding where the wires surface in the cabin; which is still a puzzle I need to figure out. The grey/black tank is empty so I could just try removing one the upper sensor's to see what's on the other side.

freds

08-24-2020, 12:21 PM

I was under the front of the bus this weekend adding a temperature sensor to the fresh water tank for the home automation and happened to pay attention to an air tank that was visible.

It is located up behind the front wheels in the exact center of the bus and has a manual drain valve on it.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/LostAirTank.jpg

Given it's location and the manual valve I wonder how many times that it has been drained in the last forty years?

Joe Camper

08-24-2020, 02:19 PM

freds

08-24-2020, 04:29 PM

Well.....if u service your air dryer and have a correctly installed water separator on an aux air pump if u have one there will be no water there.

Now the million dollar question. When u opened it what if anything came out?

If u did open it u may have loosened it now to the point it leaks when it gets cold. If it feels real free replace it. I see U have a 4 bag front axle thats good stuff.

I'm not sure if thats the brake tank for the front axle or the aux tank. Chad in KC participates here he has that vintage he may know. Open it and see if 1 of the gauges drops or not could do that to find out too.

In answer to the million dollar question I was afraid to open it and I have seen videos on Bus Grease Monkey with all sorts of NASTY stuff coming out. I don't have a proper pit so I would be right under it when I open it.

It's on my to do list to get the air dryer cartridge replaced. I have found some other air drains of the screw in type that are either frozen or wings that just rotate. So will need to replace them. Heck I even found the alcohol bottle with dried crustiness in it.

Would you recommend installing a cable pull valve on this tank?

Chad Speer

08-24-2020, 04:49 PM

Pretty sure that’s for your front brakes. My 1984 has the accessory tank in the steer compartment.

Joe Camper

08-25-2020, 08:15 AM

Fred what does or doesn't come out of that tank would dictate how to proceed. If its clean just put a fresh drain as is. If a bunch of crap comes out put a cable pull but remember lots of debre and gunk will unseat the cable pull when it goes to close and thats another problem.

If u get a volume of crap it will continue for a certain period of time even after u put a new dryer. If its really awful pull the tank and flush it.

Don't be skeert open it. Buk buk buk buk....chicken. lol I bet u have a clean tank maybe a few bits of rust.

Just in case there is lots of anything in it put a bucket under it before opening it. I have gotten in the habit of doing this after seeing astonishing large amounts of water come out and wanting to see just how much.

freds

08-25-2020, 04:06 PM

Pretty sure that’s for your front brakes. My 1984 has the accessory tank in the steer compartment.
Thanks so does mine and it has a pull valve...

freds

09-10-2020, 12:58 AM

Well on this last holiday weekend I had an unexpected detour which seems par for the course with my bus.

As part of my home automation system; I wanted sensors for shore power/RV camping lots where it could detect the difference between a 120V and 240V external feed. I.E. on 120V it would need a user input over-ride to know that the external feed was 30 amps verse's a simple extension cord in someone's driveway; to know the maximum power that it could draw for air conditioners or hydronic tank heating.

So anyway I removed the cover from the power transfer switch to add wires for a 120V shore/eternal power presence sensor and discovered the following:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/TransferSwitchBypass.jpg

Some previous owner had totally bypassed the entire transfer switch functionality; which seems to a major theme on my bus. I.E. If you don't understand it, just bypass it!!!

My buses transfer switch is an Todd Engineering PS2-245S which has the following power input modes:

1. Inverter power input
2. Shore/external power input
3. Generator input

I can see from the physical damage evidence what more and likely lead them down this path:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/TransferSwitchBurnout.jpg

It looks like the switch had been used extensively in shore power mode and had a loose connection for the neutral wire, which heated it up to the point that it melted away the connection from the plastic mount on the external power input bus bar. Look at the orange box in the picture, for where the neutral connection should be.

It seems that whoever tried to fix it, couldn't read the electrical diagram that was inside of the cover.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/TransferSwitchDiagram.jpg

Future note, be sure to use the cell phone to take pictures before you muck with things!!!!

Anyway what was expected to be a 20 minute task; turned out be a full day of figuring things out, but hey I fixed it and didn't have to spend $600.00+ to replace the power transfer switch.

It turns out in attempting to fix the melted neutral connection problem; they had rewired the generator input connection and shorted out the HOT2 to the neutral connection.

Which might explain why I also found both air conditioners in the bus wired to the HOT1 connection which had previously puzzled me as to why someone would do that!!!

They had probably ran for sometime with a blown generator fuse on HOT2 input lead, before taking a second pass at the problem.

Anyway functionally in this transfer switch is as follows:

1. The default connection is for inverter power input. Which initially confused me in decoding the circuit diagram; as I had thought that the power cord/shore power input would be the default.
2. When in power cord/shore power input mode; two relays are energized with one light showing on the top time delay board, after a 30 second delay.
3. When in generator input; all the relays are energized with both timer delay boards showing lights. The first timer delay light comes on after a 30 second delay and then the second after an additional three minute delay; before generator power is passed through to the house systems.

So anyway on to the next problem....

Fratto

09-10-2020, 09:15 AM

The ATS in my dads coach burned up the other day from a loose connection. Makes you want to put checking the torque on all connections on your yearly maintenance list.

Joe Camper

09-10-2020, 10:09 AM

Sometimes with some inverters that aren't pure sine wave if u don't use default for inverter on the switch the modified sine wave will chatter the switch going in, if it can completely lock it down at all.

Joe Camper

09-11-2020, 08:18 AM

Stupid question..

Could someone explain why these ac switches do not also have ac coils instead of dc coils and when they r dc coils what else is needed? some form of transformer to make that happen??

16767

16768

My stuff is only 30 amp This is a used removed component

I was going to seporate and use the switches independently and install one in mine but do not know how to correctly turn ac to dc to trigger the contacts down??

Is it something to do with the delay? I need the delay even if the dip switch will be off it still needs to be there?

Can someone lead me to a similar switch with ac coils or is that the wrong thing to do? Very confused help educate me here.

Joe Camper

09-11-2020, 10:00 AM

I figured it out. The delay control is ac in DC out there is a transformer in the delay.

The reason I was told as to the dc coils is ac coils make a buzz when engaged dc coils r quiet.

So then what about the buzz off the inverters????? WTF can't have that. LOL. Let the truth be known unmuffled buzzing from inverters thats a points deduction for a prevo.

Persheatecha Gill. Thanks

freds

09-11-2020, 04:08 PM

I believe the delay modules are for the following:

1. 30 second delay for external power cord/shore power. Is to present a very light load as you are plugging the cable in; so that it doesn't arch and burn the contacts.
2. Three minute delay for generator input is to help the generator get stabilized before drawing power from it.

Fratto

09-11-2020, 07:08 PM

Depending on age, cleanliness, etc., many people report significant buzzing from the AC coils that they find objectionable. For what its worth, we replaced my dads with a unit using AC coils.

Joe Camper

09-11-2020, 09:05 PM

The delays r also the transformer and since I got one ill use the quieter dc coil.

Fratto

09-12-2020, 08:29 PM

Sorry guys, I let a typo get by me ... we put DC coils in my dads coach.

Joe Camper

09-13-2020, 06:49 AM

I'm going to bench test the delay transformer before I use it I got a sneaky suspicion the delay was all that was wrong with this entire panel I pulled from the garbage. I wonder what this stuff is worth? The complete panel and then the contacters and delay separate anybody wanna guess?

Joe Camper

09-13-2020, 07:25 AM

16771

Here is another throw away I've hung on to. Its a transformer from a marathon with digital meters we switched to analog. Is it specific to a digital meter? Think so but not sure. I've got 4 of them. Dont care for digital meters im sticking with analog. If I'm correct ill never use them.

16772

freds

09-19-2020, 03:07 PM

I absolutely love One-Wire sensors and have made liberal use of them in my bus.

A One-Wire device communicates via a single signal pin and can work up to 200ft with twisted pair wiring. So just three wires to handle signal, power and ground that works as a distributed electrical sensor bus.

Here's how they are hooked up to my Raspberry Pi controller for the bus:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/OneWire.jpg

Another value point is that they are less than $3.00 a sensor for general use and around $20.00 for the inline liquid temperature sensing.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H3P8LRT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FH7BQVG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Note for the liquid sensor you want the 30mm version to use on a 1/2 pipe tee.

Each sensor has a unique ID that must be determined by adding one sensor at time and determining which id is the new one.

Here's the twelve sensors that I currently have installed in my bus.

//
// One Wire Id's DS18b20 Temperature Sensor
//
4D18940B0000 Hydronic output
1B6EE10B0000 Diesel boiler output
AA8B11481401 Generator Bay
AA35AF481401 Fresh Water Tank
AAF6A0481401 Forward Bay
AAC09E481401 Mid Bay
AA01BF471401 Battery Bay
AAE595481401 Plumbing Bay
F854950B0000 Engine Coolant (heater hose input to Glycol Heater/Tank 2)
AA9EA9481401 Under bus outside air temperature
AAF58F471401 Refrigerator
AAA09A481401 Freezer

This makes it very easy to monitor/alarm or automate desired functionality.

freds

09-29-2020, 02:34 PM

I just added my first bit of automation bling to manage the AC power inverter on my bus.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/InverterFlow.jpg

I have a high power inverter 6KW (up to 18KW surge) that has a standby consumption of about 100 watts. So if it is left on 24/7 it will use 2.4KW of power. Given that my house battery bank currently stores about 9KW, that can be a major chunk of the out of the storage capacity.

Obviously not as much of a problem when the sun is shining and is generating solar power.

So anyway this node-red flow monitors the inverter while it is on and automatically shuts it down; when it has been idle for ten minutes. If there is a large draw it automatically extends the time period.

The bling aspect of this flow is that it is Alexa enabled!!! Alexa responds to the following commands:

Alexa, inverter on
Alexa, inverter off
Alexa, inverter status

Alexa responses OK to the off and on commands. For the status command it says OK and then does an announcement with the current status.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/InverterStatusAlexa.jpg

When it automatically shuts down the inverter; it does another announcement "Ding, message". On my Alexa show it also shows the text besides speaking it.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/InverterGoingOfflineAlexa.jpg

Note: Since all your Alexa devices are in group. I can command things to happen on the bus while I am at home...

Fratto

09-29-2020, 05:25 PM

This is way cool, thanks for sharing.

Gil_J

09-30-2020, 09:06 AM

After you get this perfected I guess you'll have to package a system for others ;-)

freds

10-02-2020, 01:59 PM

I am really liking my Alexa voice control of the inverter; with the idle timeout and voice notification of it powering down.

So assuming you have a voice commanded "Bus Butler" what would everyone like it to do?

Buddy Brown

10-02-2020, 02:46 PM

freds

10-03-2020, 01:06 PM

My hydronic heat storage consists of two ten gallon RV water heater tanks.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ElectricWaterHeater.jpg

The hydronic storage can be heated by:

1. External diesel boiler at the rear of the bus.
2. Engine coolant while driving.
3. Diesel Generator coolant (not yet hooked up).
4. Electric heat.

My current project is working on the charging control logic for when I am on shore power; so, I needed too dump some capacity out of the house battery; as the house battery pack was full up from solar charging.

So I remotely fired up the inverter and turned on power to the first tank, for my first test run of a load dump situation.

Currently I have 600 watts of solar panels just leaned up against the bus, but the goal is for 3KW of solar to be mounted on the roof; so dumping excess power to hot water should be a frequent occurrence.

In a driveway surfing situation with a 120V extension cord feed; I would say after three hours you could take a shower from a dead cold bus. OK in this graphic the start point was about 65 degrees and then was around 120 after three hours. The power draw for my selected RV water heater is about 1400 watts.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ElectricHeat.jpg

At 5PM I got tired of waiting and powered up the second tank to see where it would plateau at; which turned out to be 140 degrees for my tanks. I had noticed as I was wiring these heaters up; that there was no adjustment set point for the temperature.

So anyway you can see the effect of turning on the second tank heater; as a steeper slope at the end of graph.

freds

10-03-2020, 01:29 PM

Hey Gil, I went to the link on your post and did not see a date for 1980. 1981 was the oldest I saw, did I miss something.
Reason I am asking is could the title the gentleman has is a salvage title. The state id # throws me. Just curious about something that far back.
Maybe the state assigns a title ID along with the actual VIN #. Didn't manufacturing start using 17 digit VIN # in the 60's of so.
Sorry about your tire, that could have been a real problem.

I was also curious about the state ID and did some research on this and found a web site that has listing for when buses were produced that may of be of interest for various manufactures:

It is: http://www.angelfire.com/ca/TORONTO/manufacturers.html Note you more and likely will have to use the internet history site to view this content.

In my case I was interested in Prevost buses produced in 1980 and got the following list of the motor homes:

[Private] Recker, O.E.S. JA80 Motor Home M104-2749-80
[Dealer] Liberty Coach Inc. MR80 Motor Home M104-2755-80
[Private] Beckley, G.W. MR80 Motor Home M104-2786-80
[Private] Miller, William & Elizabeth MY80 Motor Home M104-2796-80 35' Champion motor home
[Private] Custer, C.L. MY80 Motor Home M502-2806-80
[Private] Mandrell, Barbara MY80 Motor Home M104-2818-80 TN
[Private] Allavesen, Donald 1980 Motor Home M104-2826-80

I did find a data plate that matched up with this detail.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/BusIdNumber.jpg

So no I don't think that I have a salvage title, probably just some weirdness of when it was registered in Oregon where I purchased it.

Buddy Brown

10-03-2020, 03:01 PM

Thanks for the info. I did not know this was the way it used to be.
Congrats on the bus and good luck with the updates you want to do.

Gil_J

10-04-2020, 02:12 PM

I've never seen anyone use the generator coolant loop for their domestic hot water. I would discourage the thought. If the generator is running you have AC power. Use the electric heating elements. The complexity and risk seem far too great for the very limited value of using the generator's coolant loop.

My hydronic heat storage consists of two ten gallon RV water heater tanks.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ElectricWaterHeater.jpg

The hydronic storage can be heated by:

1. External diesel boiler at the rear of the bus.
2. Engine coolant while driving.
3. Diesel Generator coolant (not yet hooked up).
4. Electric heat.

My current project is working on the charging control logic for when I am on shore power; so, I needed too dump some capacity out of the house battery; as the house battery pack was full up from solar charging.

So I remotely fired up the inverter and turned on power to the first tank, for my first test run of a load dump situation.

Currently I have 600 watts of solar panels just leaned up against the bus, but the goal is for 3KW of solar to be mounted on the roof; so dumping excess power to hot water should be a frequent occurrence.

In a driveway surfing situation with a 120V extension cord feed; I would say after three hours you could take a shower from a dead cold bus. OK in this graphic the start point was about 65 degrees and then was around 120 after three hours. The power draw for my selected RV water heater is about 1400 watts.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ElectricHeat.jpg

At 5PM I got tired of waiting and powered up the second tank to see where it would plateau at; which turned out to be 140 degrees for my tanks. I had noticed as I was wiring these heaters up; that there was no adjustment set point for the temperature.

So anyway you can see the effect of turning on the second tank heater; as a steeper slope at the end of graph.

freds

10-04-2020, 06:36 PM

freds

10-22-2020, 12:37 PM

It's starting to get colder here in the northwest, so the bus is doesn't immediately start when you crank it.

So I am starting to test the preheating side of my DIY hydronic system. Here's a run from this morning.

It was 34 degrees out and I was thinking definitely time for a preheat. However I have been also working on solar panel installs so have been running the bus twice a day as I have reposition it in the storage yard to get access to both sides of the bus.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/EnginePreheat.jpg

The engine coolant value is only accurate while the preheating pump is running as the temperature sensor is in the pumping bay and from it's location it also sees a bit of eddie current heat transfer from the glycol tank. So anyway the coolant temperature started at 50 degrees and rose by 18 degrees in 30 minutes.

freds

10-24-2020, 01:58 PM

Did another baseline run this morning with electric vs diesel boiler preheating.

I have just about finished my solar install project with seven out of ten solar panels hooked up and it was forecasted to be sunny today (no evidence of it yet LOL!).

So anyway I needed to apply a dump load to drain the house batteries to make room for the solar power input.

It turned out to be a colder morning, forecasted to hit freezing tomorrow.

So anyway I turned on the electric heaters in both of the glycol storage tanks and was drawing about 3.4KW of power from the house battery bank for a bit over an hour.

At that point I turned them off and fired up the diesel boiler, which you can see from the red line that I drew on the chart.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/PreheatElectricVsDiesel.jpg

The initial dip in hydronic output temperature is due to diverting glycol back to the diesel boiler at the rear of the bus.

As you can see both curves steepened as the Diesel boiler is a 10KW unit.

Joe Camper

10-24-2020, 02:18 PM

My bus in Chicago in 32 degree weather went like this.

If i used the electric block heater it was 4 hr. 2 hr point was more than enough warm for an easy start but to get it toasty warm like about 4hr at 32 degree.

If i used the espar the burner would begin to cycle in and out at about 45 min.

freds

10-24-2020, 08:15 PM

Gil_J

10-24-2020, 11:46 PM

More good stuff!

freds

10-26-2020, 09:23 PM

Just finished a big project mounting the solar panels on my bus. I would say I averaged one panel a day for the installation as I was doing it by myself.

I installed ten LG375N2W-G4 panels on the top of my forty foot bus. These panels are 375 maximum watts apiece.

Here's the head on view from the front of the bus:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SolarFront.jpg

Here's a view looking back along the top of the bus:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SolarTopView.jpg

Here's a side view of the first three panels:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SolarFontSide.jpg

In this view you can see that the first two panels are mounted in a slope for hopefully a little bit of aerodynamics though I know that this is probably a dead zone given the almost flat front ends on our buses.

This arrangement only adds about an inch to the clearance height of the bus. I didn't continue with the panels going straight back so as to give the air-conditioner hot exhaust a chance to go upwards and not heat the following panels which would affect their efficiency.

Given the poor aerodynamics of our buses all reports that I have heard is that there is no change in fuel efficiency for mounting solar panels. I don't have a base line on this bus, though the previous owner reported 9 MPG; which given his other statements I would discount.

Here's a side view of the last seven panels:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SolarBackSide.jpg

Note the very last panel behind the rear air-conditioner is also mounted low to allow the hot air to raise.

I think a nice side effect of this arrangement is that the roof will be shaded and the solar panels should have good airflow to help cool them. Also most of the rain will hit the panels and then run off the sides.

PrevostNewbie

10-26-2020, 09:29 PM

Wow, Amazing work, will you have enough space to service the roof AC units? Or maybe just unbolt the panel and move it to the side? I am installing 3 new penguins on mine this week.

freds

10-26-2020, 10:21 PM

Yes the plan is to just unbolt one of the panels and move it aside. My current units are quite old, so if I need to replace I would think a newer unit would be more low profile.

PrevostNewbie

10-26-2020, 10:27 PM

I bought the Penguin II's, they were the lowest I could find. My last RV had a Dometic Brisk 2, that was taller than the Penguins. You could integrate the AC units into your Automation also, since the new AC boards won't be compatible with the stock thermostat if that's what you have in the bus. you could track the AC run time and cycle them based on avail battery and solar power/Time of day/ and weather conditions.

freds

10-27-2020, 11:02 AM

I am going for functional first. The current unit's are really old school where you manually control them. So using a network power switch to toggle them on and off as needed. At the moment I am going for base line functionality.

I am using Shelly EM1 switches which also give a read out of power consumption on the circuit that they switch.

freds

10-29-2020, 11:56 PM

Well hey the bus now has heat since I got the zone fans working!!!

The bus was previously setup with each heater outlet having it's own manual fan control switch, can't have that with my automation/smart bus goal LOL!!!

Anyway I decided to change out the old fans with Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-24V-3000RPM Fans.

In the PC world Noctua has a great reputation for quite and long lasting fans. I went with 3000RPM fans for when I need maximum air movement.

This series of fans have what is called a four wire interface where the fan's speed is controlled with PWM (pulse wave modulation) signal.

The four wire interface has the following wires:

1. Ground
2. Power
3. PWM control
4. RPM feedback signal

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/PiFanControl.jpg

I don't use the RPM feedback signal in my configuration.

In my DIY hydronic system I have multiple heat zones in the bus, with control of each zone done by switching the power on/off for the pump and the fan associated with the zone.

My bus automation controller is Raspberry Pi 4 running NodeRed. The Pi has two pins that can be assigned to do PWM under hardware control. However only one pin can be used at a time for PWM.

Given this I currently have the PWM control line shared by the different fans in each zone. I could add separate cheaper Raspberry Pi's and have each zone be adjustable.

The initial NodeRed flow that I created is very simple.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/NodeRedFanControl.jpg

It consists of just three function nodes:

1. Set initial msg.payload on startup to 50 which means 50% fan speed. (Note I took my snapshot after I manually set the speed to 100%.)
2. GUI slider control that allows the user to change the speed on the manual control web page.
3. Generate the PWM signal on the GPIO12 pin.

This is just my starter flow it will get a bit more complex when I add voice control via Alexa. I might also add logic to run the fans at full speed if the delta to the target temperature is greater then ten degrees.

If you are not doing automation you can purchase cheap add on PC fan controllers that you can manually adjust, otherwise when you give these fans power they run at full speed.

Another attribute of Noctua fans is that you can set the PWM duty cycle to zero and the fans turn off. Not something all generic PC fans can do.

Anyway it was easy to change out the fans. Here's the old fan:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HeaterOldFan.jpg

And the new Noctua fan:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HeaterNewFan.jpg

Actually this last picture show's me accidently installing the fan backwards, opp's!!!

Test before you close up....

freds

11-14-2020, 02:29 PM

I thought I would post about my adventure in getting the solar panels mounted on my 1980 Prevost bus.

I guess the moral of this story is to use the proper tools!!!

This adventure was delayed as I thought I would have to bend offset brackets and was figuring out how to get them bent correctly as I thought the length of my panels was less than the width of the bus. It was a measurement error on my part as I used a two by four that was close to take initial measurements. I should have boosted an initial panel up to the roof for a more accurate measurement. By totally serendipity the length of the panels (77 inches by 40 inches) exactly matched the mounting points on my bus!!! So no need to bend brackets!!!

Anyway here's a picture of the offset brackets that I so proudly made to mount the first solar panel at the rear of the bus.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/OffsetBracket.jpg

Using a bench vise you have to plan the order of the bends based on the distance between the top of the vice and the space to the draw bar. I used a vise mounted four inch metal brake from Harbor Freight.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/paintLine.jpg

Like I mentioned earlier the my solar panels LG375N2W-G4 were an exact fit to use flat plates as standoff's on my bus. The previous owner had a very accurate paint line that was I able to key off of when installing these supports. The roof structure on my bus is aluminum sheets installed over a metal frame. This results in a hollow square tube that I could drill into to install rivnuts for mounting the panels.

Drilling through aluminum and then steel rapidly wore out my drill bits and I kept having to buy individual bits until I broke down and brought a drill sharpener. Nothing worse then being at the top of ladder and having dull tools to work with!!!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKUY1O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I was working alone so the next item on my learning list was how to get the panels properly into position!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/BlockingPanels.jpg

I started off using wooden blocks that I had on hand, however this lead to a comedy routine of going up and down ladders repeatedly on both sides of the bus. Which had friends commenting "hey have you lost weight?" to which I would say the answer was yes, lost count of the number of times I have been up and down those ladders!!!! The solution was to get light weight jack stands to accurately position the panels before starting to drill.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07LDL9BKC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Speaking of ladders and proper tools. I initially started using an extension ladder that I had split into two pieces. In the case of my ladder this results in one piece missing a rung which I came very to regret as I had to position a step ladder next to that section to get past the missing rung. I just bet you can see this coming, but at the end of one day I forgot about the missing rung and wound up ringing my chime on the pavement!!!! I also sprained the thumb on my right hand which is still bothering me three weeks later.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/OldNewLadders.jpg

Needless to say I broke down and immediately purchased a telescopic extension ladder for the bus.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B2OFNHM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have also purchased a number of thick kneeling pads for use around the bus and have zip tied one permanently to the ladder to protect the paint when placed on the bus.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XHKVR5X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Enough for today, will do another post of consumables that I used to mount my panels.

Gil_J

11-14-2020, 08:22 PM

PrevostNewbie

11-14-2020, 09:21 PM

Are you drilling the aluminum and steel dry? It helps if you add a little cutting fluid and watch your drill speed in steel.

freds

11-15-2020, 12:18 PM

I'm curious why you didn't mount the panels closer to the outside top of the bus? Going through a tree canopy in a campground will almost always have a lower clearance on the sides of the road. Looks good. I never seen a vise mounted brake. Very cool idea for smaller material.

Well the desire was to get as many solar panels as possible on the top of the bus and reduce the effect of shading that would take panels out of production when a panel is partially shaded.

Then as I went along I considered the effect of heat from the air conditioners on solar production as well.

I might consider fairing in the sides and a treatment on the front to transition the air flow, but hey the first step is basic functionality.

freds

11-15-2020, 12:21 PM

Are you drilling the aluminum and steel dry? It helps if you add a little cutting fluid and watch your drill speed in steel.

Yes I was drilling it dry and I did try some cutting fluid, but it made a horrible mess. Yes I did learn to slow down the drilling speed in the steel portion. But sharp bit's made each hole a breeze to do.

PrevostNewbie

11-15-2020, 12:30 PM

I hear you the oil can be messy if the use is not targeted. What i do is put a little cutting fluid in a small shallow dish, something heavy so it won't flip over move around easily. Only let the fluid get about 1/16" deep. When you are ready to drill, just touch the end of the drill in the fluid, it doesn't take much and this is the only place you want the fluid (on the drill point), if you feel the drill is drying out, just touch the drill in the fluid again. If you do this, most of the fluid will dry up in the drilling operation which is what you want. Shop vac and a paper towel should be all you need to clean up.

freds

11-15-2020, 08:45 PM

Things are starting to cascade towards getting finished with the first phase!!!

Anyway the next item on my wish list was a better shower.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/NewShower.jpg

This was quite the install process as it didn't fit where the old shower head was. The layout of my bus in this area is:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ShowerLayout.jpg

The refrigerator/freezer has been sitting in the aisle for sometime because I have been running my solar panel and network wiring on the rear wall. This space is a vertical column of the house battery bay, refrigerator/freezer and roof vent. The refrigerator/freezer is being converted from propane/electric to a simple DC compressor setup to eliminate propane in the bus and use 1/6 the electrical power.

Anyway I had to cut through the wall of the cabinet that holds the refrigerator/freezer to get through the pocket door and then to the back of the shower to mount the new shower head.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ShowerAccess.jpg

This is very tight space, so visited a number of hardware stores until I found some 72 inch stainless steel hoses so I wouldn't have a connection that I couldn't reach.

Also because of the sliding pocket door I had to be careful in routing these hoses so they wouldn't interfere with the pocket door.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ShowerHoseRouting.jpg

freds

11-15-2020, 08:47 PM

Afterwards I filled my access cutout back in. Hey I am not a master carpenter and it's a very hidden sin LOL!!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ShowerAccessFilledIn.jpg

This shower will have two modes:

1. Normal shower
2. What I refer to as vertical hot tub mode where it is a recirculating shower. You can take a hour long hedonistic shower and not waste any water...

Ok, back to work....

freds

11-23-2020, 11:37 PM

Hi Everyone

One of the latest bits of chaos; is reworking the kitchen. Here's a picture my original kitchen:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/OrginalKitchen2.jpg

The bus originally had a propane stove/oven. With my solar setup I am totally doing away with propane in the bus. The refrigerator was also a dual mode propane/AC power unit, that is being upgraded via a DC compressor conversion kit.

Where the old stove and the two drawers were; is being replaced with a dishwasher, microwave convection oven and induction cooktop.

I didn't like the big double bucket sink that absorbed most of the counter space, so I am replacing it with a bar sized sink to get counter space back.

Here's a picture as we start to remove the old counter top:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/KitchenDemo1.jpg

Look at how big of a hole the old sink occupied!!!

Anyway the demolition process was very delicate as the tile work was done after after the counter top (plywood and formica veneer) had been installed and the counter top had lots of nails that were on the edges under the tile that had to be cut first.

We ended up having to remove the counter top a piece at time and cutting close to the back tiles, so we could then get an oscillating multi tool metal cutting blade under the remaining pieces to cut the nails flush before we could slide the old counter sections out. The metal cutting blade only has about a two inch reach.

For this project I hired a guy who does extensive kitchen remodels to help me. He said in a house that the demolition phase is generally not more than an hour or two. We wound spending the day doing this phase to preserve the tile work and did lots of kibitzing on tactics to get around the stubborn areas. We only had a couple of tiles and a bit of grout pop loose; which we consider a major success!!

The next task that I did was to cut a fan ventilation hole given the potential for heat build up with all the appliances in a stack:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/KitchenFanHole.jpg

I would have to say that my bus has very substantial cabinetry; as all the walls are 3/4 inch thick. I had to cut this hole using plunge cuts with the oscillating multi tool.

I will be adding another temperature sensor in this area and adding a fan to vent from this space to behind the refrigerator and out the roof vent.

Here's a test fit after the stone work was done for the new counter top:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/KitchenTestFit.jpg

freds

11-23-2020, 11:39 PM

We then encounter our first ah shit, I was reading the manual for the induction cooktop and it says there has to be six and half inch gap between the top of the cooktop and an appliance below it!!!

So I take out my now trusty oscillating multi tool and cut out the floor of the now gutted cabinet to get more vertical space.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/KitchenCabinetFloorCut.jpg

As you can see we are now down to the original floorboard and see evidence that the cabin has been through multiple generations of do overs by previous owners.

This cabinet surgery gained me another 2 1/2 inches of vertical space for the induction cooktop, so we are now at 5 1/2 inches. So close as I am going to get!!!

Ck2hans

11-24-2020, 07:30 AM

Freds:
One question
Is it legal for you to be having this much fun? LOL
Nice work, maybe someday I will get that ambitious.
Chuck

freds

11-27-2020, 01:03 AM

Huh, what?

Ok I plugged the dam thing in!!!

In finishing out the kitchen with running the power inverter for extended periods of time and experimenting with the climate control for the bus with my home automation system. I was severely behind the power curve (aviation term for your just about to hit the ground in a non-survivable manner, unless you get your head out of your @$#, right now...), I managed to flat-line the house battery system. Danger, Danger Will Robinson!!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SolarPlugedIn.jpg

Ok this post is going to cover a lot of ground so it will be broken up into multiple parts.

One of the major challenges is how do you recharge your solar house battery pack when the sun hasn’t been shining for multiple days and you have run it down into the ground?

Just to give an example, I have 3.7KW with ten solar panels that are flat mounted on the roof of my bus.

Given my high latitude (almost in Canada) they are not at the correct angled to harvest the most power.

As an example, a recent day with a bit of mixed sunshine they generated 5.1KW of solar production, however the same panels only generated around 0.1KW of power while it was gloomy rainy day!!!

Prior to getting all ten panels mounted, a couple panels worked almost as good leaned up against the side of the bus pointed at the sun (closer to the correct angle) when the sun appears in soggy Seattle in the winter!!!

Hey, I should be in Arizona this time of the year!!! I am definitely behind schedule right now and can sort of blame it on Covid…

Anyway, as part of a typical solar configuration you generally have:

1. Solar panels
2. Solar charge controllers of which the best is the MPTT types.
3. House battery system
4. Inverter/charger

For the solar charge controllers, I absolutely love, love Victron products, because of the quality of that product line and the free intrinsic cloud data services you get from using their products. (See my sort of fake power production image above)

However, while I am willing to pay a premium for their solar charge controllers, not so much for their inverter/chargers.

Victron is a global company and they fairly much package their product line for that target audience and
this leads to a bit of disconnect in the America market.

In Europe they have three phase power and here in the US most homes have what we call split phase 240V power.

So, Victron’s solution is hey buy three inverters for Europe and two for the US, unless your power needs are low in which case you can buy just one for 120V or 208V power.

Sort of if you want it, just pay for it!!!

In my motorhome I decide to go with a 240V split phase inverter that was compatible with my choice to reuse Tesla car battery modules (could have been the more standard LifePO4 batteries).

Hey, I do own a Tesla Model S P85 in which you are always a couple ounces of foot pressure away from releasing your inter demon (very quietly/civilized, just instant raw acceleration whenever you desire it.) …

So my battery choice was a couple of recycled Tesla battery modules, from some poor sucker who totaled their Tesla...

Given this choice and the technical difference between LifePO4 batteries and Tesla battery modules, my choice narrowed down to a Sigineer inverter/charger; which is a 6KW split phase true sine wave inverter that can surge to 18KW for short time periods. Given this I can fairly much run anything that I would normally run when hooked up to 50AMP service with my motor home/bus conversion while off grid.

Note the Sigineer inverter/charger works with both LifePO4 batteries and Tesla Battery modules, something you can not say for other brands.

Sigineer marketing material indicates that it can cover several applications including RV usage.

However, I do find the Sigineer to be a bit limited in a couple of aspects for RV usage and must consider that it was originally designed to be a UPS device in commercial service. These limitations are:

1. Charger circuitry only works with 240V input source.
2. Inverter/Charger can only do one function at a time.

This works well as a backup UPS power source where when the power returns it bypasses the new power feed to the target load and recharges the battery pack. However, it sucks when you consider a couple of typical scenarios’ that you encounter as a RV’er.

1. Mooch-docking in a friend’s driveway with a simple extension cord.
2. Campground with 30AMP 120V service.

This is where the Victron inverter/chargers really shine in that they allow the 120V though in passthrough mode and do a power assist mode in the case you need to run an air conditioner and microwave at the same time. Where the extra temporary extra power need comes from your house battery bank, without tripping your friend's circuit breaker.

However, a Victron 3KW power inverter costs about the same as a single 6KW split phase Sigineer inverter; where with the Victron product line you would need two inverters to cover the same functionality for your motor home.

So how did I choose to work around this flaw/limitation with the Sigineer product line?

Standby for part two!!!

freds

11-27-2020, 01:05 AM

The answer to my dilemma is inexpensive surplus HP server power supplies!!!

HP for over a decade has had standardized redundant power supplies in their server product line.

As these server’s age; they get recycled for new more powerful servers in data centers and then get stripped for parts to sell.

Given this these power supplies get sold for around $20.00 apiece. The primary market for these recycled power supplies is to power GPU’s for Bitcoin miners.

Another is for radio-controlled (RC) hobbyist to power lithium battery charge controllers to charge multiple batteries for model airplanes and helicopters.

One of the limitations of these power supplies is that the 12V output is tied to a common ground so if you want to use multiple power supplies in series for more voltage; you need to convert them to floating ground so they don’t short out when connected together.

The following link gives background and technical details for how you do this by drilling out a couple of ground studs and replacing with them with nylon bolts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2QFBE6ZFF0&t=459s

However, when you are talking drilling with electronics, the resulting metal fragments and electricity that run on; doesn’t mix too well; so you must be very, very careful and understand what you are doing!!!!

Back to your solar charge controllers which you will use as a smart interface to your house battery system.

These controllers generally need an input source that is at least a few volts higher than the voltage of your house batteries. Their primary function is to convert power from a higher voltage source down to the house battery voltage. So to reach the voltage level of a typical solar panel you will need multiple supplies.

In my case I have a couple of Victron 150/70 MPPT charge controller which mean they can handle up to 150 volts input and output up to 70 AMP’s out to the 24V house battery bank. (Note I will use four 12V power supplies which I will explain later.)

Given clouds, time of day. The input voltage can vary, hence the advanced (MPPTT) multiple power point tracking functionality of the solar charge controllers.

Ok, how do you process these multiple power supplies to floating ground without drilling them as it shows in the video?

I came up with a much simple procedure using a rivnut tool, so it only takes about five minutes for each power supply conversion without the need to do any drilling!!!

More to come and hey I am spending a lot more time describing this to you, than it actually took to do!!!

freds

11-27-2020, 01:11 AM

Here's my simpler no drill method of converting HP server power supplies to floating ground operation.

Steps:

1. Remove the top off of the power supply (four Phillip's head screws).
2. At the back of the power supply remove the two circuit board mounting/case grounding screws.
3. Turn the power supply over and screw the rivnut tool shank through a drill stop ring and pull the nut stud out of the case for both screws.
4. Replace the original metal screws with nylon parts and put the top back on the power supply.

Nylon parts that I used:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078SV7QVF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NQQZTZ6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B005E3Q7H8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Though when I do it again, I may just use the spacer and some hot glue as the head of the nylon bolt sticks out too much.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HpPowerConversion1.jpg

The rivnut tool that can handle the small metric screw size that is used in the power supply is:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0829TL7H3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And after we have removed the embedded nut that acted as the grounding post.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HpPowerConversion2.jpg

Generally on an RV you wire up all your solar panels in parallel so if one panel is shaded it doesn't affect other panels.

Each panel includes a DC blocking diode as part of it's construction so that current can only flow one way.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/SolarPanelSymbols.jpg

In our world a battery isolator performs the same functionality as it has DC blocking diodes as part of it's construction. Though they are more higher amperage then a typical solar panel diode.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HpPowerConversion3.jpg

In the above picture you see the metal bracket that I bent up to mount my four converted HP power supplies to the roof of my battery bay.

The power supplies are wired in series and the output runs to a battery isolator which is then wired in parallel with the solar panels on the roof of my bus. I selected the solar charge controller that had the fewest panels connected to it.

The reason that I used four power supplies is to have a higher total voltage then my solar panels put out. By using the battery isolator the charge controller will see whichever device is producing the most power.

A quick note about these power supplies their maximum output is 900watts on 120volts and 1200watts when fed 240V.

The maximum power that you can draw from a 120v circuit is around 1800 watts.

Both the HP power supplies and the solar charge controllers are about 90% efficient.

My solar charge controller output is 70AMP's at 24 volts which is 1680 watts. However back to the efficacy of both devices we talking an input power requirement of over 2000 watts to deliver that much power, which will trip either a circuit breaker or overheat the extension cord.

There is also another rule that should be paid attention too; is that for continuous loads you should not draw more than 80 percent of available power. This works out to an extension cord load of around 1440 watts.

So after working all these numbers I changed the maximum amperage on the solar charge controller from 70 amps to 50 amps. Which is about a 1200 watt charge rate to the batteries.

I purchase my HP power supplies from eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DPS-1200FB-HPE-1200W-POWER-SUPPLY-FOR-DL180-DL185-DL580-DL785-G5/263405357062?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I also purchased adapter boards that fake the power supply into automatically turning on and breaks out the DC voltage to a terminal strip, as this greatly simplified the conversion process that was in the original video that I gave a link too.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DPS-1200-1200FB-Adapter-board-Antminer-S7-S9-SP20-Bitcoin-Ethereum/303588575335?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Note the terminal screws on this boards terminal strip are small; so use multiple (fine wire flexible) wires to carry the load.

Joe Camper

11-27-2020, 07:17 AM

Explain what uve built in another way. Based on early results, in your opinion, once u get way down south and head out into the wide open spaces of a spot like Quartzsite. Im assuming spring and fall were bigger constant HVAC loads aren't nessessary im thinking u could go indefinatly without supplementing the panels for power.? Yes?

Next question. If heat is needed at night or AC during the day in your estimation how many hours a day do u think u could support an air conditioner or heater and still not need to supplement the panels on the average mostly sunny day? 2 or 3 hr or will it be more or less?

I know when I'm in the infield at the race track living off inverter I need about 4 hr of gen time when I'm not needing HVAC and I go 2 in the morn and 2 in the evening resulting in about 10bucks a day in fuel. Not counting the inverters or batts or hardware that we all already have but just the panels and charging controllers how much did u put into just those items?

Possibly a ridiculous question. In intense boondocking circles do u know if there r portable wind generators out there that have any value?

Gil_J

11-27-2020, 09:55 AM

More great info! A 2 alternator, one battery battery isolator would be perfect, if you want to use diodes. A better option might be an automatic charge relay. High current and NO Voltage loss, like a diode.

freds

11-27-2020, 04:17 PM

Here's a block diagram of the installation that I just performed on my bus:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/MoochDockingFeed.jpg

As I mentioned in my previous post these power supplies can produce 1200 watts if fed a diet of 240 volts!!!

So I will be adding another set of power supplies that are driven from my diesel generator, so in this instance the block diagram would be:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/GeneratorFeed.jpg

Ultimately I will have an automation that will go hey it's 7PM, how's the state of charge for the house batteries? Hey it's a little low, need to run the generator for 20 minutes...

I also found a service where you give it your geographic coordinates and it will predict your solar production for the day, based on the weather forecast and cloud based AI that uses the latest cubesat imaging.

freds

11-27-2020, 04:22 PM

freds

11-27-2020, 06:14 PM

Next question. If heat is needed at night or AC during the day in your estimation how many hours a day do u think u could support an air conditioner or heater and still not need to supplement the panels on the average mostly sunny day? 2 or 3 hr or will it be more or less?

I know when I'm in the infield at the race track living off inverter I need about 4 hr of gen time when I'm not needing HVAC and I go 2 in the morn and 2 in the evening resulting in about 10bucks a day in fuel. Not counting the inverters or batts or hardware that we all already have but just the panels and charging controllers how much did u put into just those items?

Hi Joe

I just realized I didn't answer all your questions...

My Tesla house battery pack if fully charged holds around 10.4KW of power, however for the longest life you generally charge to only an 80% power level so around 8KW of storage though I can elect now and then to go to a full charge.

The biggest draws are my air conditioners and when they are running flat out they draw around 2400 watts, so around three hours at that consumption level. I have no experience yet with what their duty cycle would be at say 80-90 degrees, so at this time guessing longer. During the night I could elect to just run the air conditioner that services the bedroom.

My outlay for the solar panels and solar charge controllers has been, oh shit you made me add everything up!!!

Solar panels $1700.00
Victron Charge controllers $1800.00
Victron Color control computer $510.00
Victron 24V to 12V 70 AMP converter $141.00
Victron 24V Isolated 20 AMP DC charger $165.00
2 Tesla battery modules $2200.00
SimpBMS for Tesla battery modules $800.00
Signineer 6KW inverter $1200.00
==============================================
Total $8,516.00

Actually this isn't bad, just 8KW of Battle Born batteries would have been close to the same amount.

DIY LifePO4 battery packs has been really dropping, if I was starting over today my totals for batteries would be around $2000.00 rather then the $3000.00 that I spent.

I am considering buying another couple of Tesla battery modules to double my storage capacity.

I could have gotten by with two solar charge controllers instead of the three that I purchased.

Joe Camper

11-28-2020, 08:48 AM

Persheate that Fred. I have redundant inverters although my loads and draws r small and I only utilize 1 at a time.. Both r 2800 w and have 2 8D deca gel hooked to each one. The costs of these items were ZERO coustomers give me their old stuff all the time I've actually got enough to do another set at home and I plan on pulling all my lights and AV off the grid at some point. A little added input all 4 of my 8d Decca jell r almost 10yr old and they all still rest north of 13 volts. I love them, love to look see 13.1 with the controllers floating, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

So solar panels and those costs r what I'm interested in. The solar panels and costs was great info. I currently have only 1 panel attatched to each inverter and what they do is very adequate for what they r. However im often parked in a driveway sometimes on inverter and i have a trailer I pull that if I lined the entire roof with panels u wouldn't even really notice them and I probably will. Lot of your stuff is beyond my knowledge thanks for the input.

I assume the panels u r using would also be the best bang for the buck for me too? I would think I would not need the costly charge controllers u have put in and for a couple grand i could fill my trailer roof and cover a less expensive control?

I don't make the left coast too often but if God is willing ill be in Sacramento late May. If u were ready and willing to do some chassis stuff at that point bring yourself down to Norms towing and we will strip and redress your baby's underbelly.

Gil_J

11-28-2020, 09:09 AM

Your 240V drawing is confusing me. First, can I assume you are talking ACV? If so, what will you do with 240VAC that's not split-phase?

freds

11-28-2020, 10:54 AM

I assume the panels u r using would also be the best bang for the buck for me too? I would think I would not need the costly charge controllers u have put in and for a couple grand i could fill my trailer roof and cover a less expensive control?

I don't make the left coast too often but if God is willing ill be in Sacramento late May. If u were ready and willing to do some chassis stuff at that point bring yourself down to Norms towing and we will strip and redress your baby's underbelly.

Good Morning Joe

I got my panels from https://www.santansolar.com/ in their scratch and dent sale, as used panels from someone who did an upgrade on a solar farm. It looks like they are selling new panels for about the same cost as I paid.

The thing about shipping solar panels is that they are so large they require an extra large pallet and require special handling so it costs as much to ship a couple as it does for ten of them. A general rule of thumb you can't have too many panels (grin)...

I will keep in mind that you might be out this way, not sure where I will be at that time myself.

I understand you get your batteries for free and already have your inverters. I went for a 24V house battery system as that's a voltage of a single Tesla Battery module and I wanted to add on modules one at a time. Though I did consider 48V and a different inverter, but that would have required buying two modules at a time.

Generally the higher the voltage of the house pack, other costs go down for wiring and solar controllers. I have heard some horror stories about other brands of solar controllers failing and cooking large battery arrays.

freds

11-28-2020, 11:09 AM

Your 240V drawing is confusing me. First, can I assume you are talking ACV? If so, what will you do with 240VAC that's not split-phase?

The HP power supplies do not care what form of higher voltage that you have as an input since they are designed to be used around the world. It could be split phase or a tap off of two legs of three phase power which is 208 volts, they adjust to a wide voltage range.

The key operating point is that aggregate power generation of the combined power supplies is greater than what the solar charge controllers can absorb. It's the solar charge controllers job to manage and account for the type of house batteries that you are using.

In my case I plan to split the power out via the battery isolator to my two other solar charge controllers when charging via the generator.

I suppose I could do the same when plugged into 50 AMP service, though generally when you do that; you are going to stick around for awhile, so not the time pressure you have when running a generator.

freds

11-28-2020, 11:25 AM

Speaking of solar charge controllers; if your house voltage pack is higher then the bus start batteries you can use one as interface between the house batteries and the bus batteries as a full time maintainer.

The YouTube channel "Beginning from this Morning (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-xTux7NNRrOTE_74WbU5cg)" has an episode on doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04hVUQQYiyY&t=13s

freds

11-28-2020, 07:44 PM

Reached a milestone with the Kitchen rework today, I used the Microwave LOL!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/Microwave.jpg

PrevostNewbie

11-28-2020, 08:07 PM

I do that too, when i am in the bus working, it's nice to have a bathroom, water to wash your hands, a kitchen, etc. Congrats on your power working, Life is good. ;)

freds

12-02-2020, 11:52 PM

Ok you can blame this on automation or design choices by yours truly. Given that I have made a living from software relate stuff for 40 plus years, I do tend to try and be a little smarter or dumber until I work all the bugs out.

Anyway my bus house systems automation has been based on very local (inside my bus, not dependent on reaching the Internet) Internet of things (IOT) stuff. The brain of my house automation is Raspberry Pi on a bus wired/WiFy network that is private to the bus.

As part of the design I went with Shelly Humidity and Temperature sensors that are battery powered. They are suppose to wake up every five minutes and detect the current values and if they have changed by X amount connect to the local WiFy network and report the change.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ShellyHT1.jpg

As you can see I have one such sensor stuck up on the wall of my bathroom.

As a sensor the drawback is that they are battery powered and I am on my second set of batteries in the last four months.

As a side note I am not yet living in the bus so it's going through larger temperature extremes then if I lived in it, so probably more reports than what would be normal.

Given that I plan on living in the bus full time for the next 10-15 years, maybe I should get them directly wired so they can be more reliable.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/ShellyHT2.jpg

As you can see from the above graphic there was no kitchen reports until I inserted my last spare battery this evening...

While I could make the automation software ignore a heat zone or use the nearest zone if a zone is not reporting, I thing a hardware solution is more appropriate. I.E. Add some wires to provided power so that they are always ON!!!!

PrevostNewbie

12-02-2020, 11:55 PM

I think wired is a good choice, those sensors most likely sip power from the tiniest of thimbles.

freds

12-03-2020, 12:57 PM

I think wired is a good choice, those sensors most likely sip power from the tiniest of thimbles.

They make a replacement back that accepts USB power and converts it to 3 volts. I will add some small DC to DC converters to power these.

My biggest problem is fishing the wires through the walls, which I dread doing as once the hole is drilled, it's drilled...

PrevostNewbie

12-03-2020, 08:35 PM

They make a replacement back that accepts USB power and converts it to 3 volts. I will add some small DC to DC converters to power these.

My biggest problem is fishing the wires through the walls, which I dread doing as once the hole is drilled, it's drilled...

I totally hear ya

freds

12-07-2020, 01:09 PM

My bus came equipped with a large Norcold 1200 double door refrigerator/freezer. It worked on electricity but not on propane, which I recently discovered was that the ignitor coil had cold solder joints and had disconnected from the controller board.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/OrginalKitchen2.jpg

I made the decision that my bus would be propane free, (opps now thinking of it for engine HP boost LOL!)..

But anyway this latest project that went very smoothly; was upgrading the refrigerator from the typical RV propane/electric cooling to a 12 DC compressor to be more power efficient inline with my solar power goals.

I purchased my conversion kit from:

https://jc-refrigeration.com/product-category/hvac/norcold-hvac-units/

They have videos of how do the replacement/conversion of the cooling portion of your refrigerator/freezer. They offer replacements for most RV type of your refrigerator/freezer.

Here's the video of the basic procedure that I performed to upgrade my refrigerator/freezer.

https://jc-refrigeration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/1200-1210-Norcold.mp4

I first heard about this conversion from the youTube channel "Morton's on the Move". https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCirNI5XV3xZZApeIe0a5-6Q

The videos covering their conversion is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yte1V3CkDrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeKtqqleMdM

And since the proof is always in the numbers, here's a history chart from my first run:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/refridgeratorRun1.jpg

I was able to install my automation temperature sensors by running them in through the holes for the drip pan drain and the ICE maker.

I realized on my way home after powering it up for it's first time that I forgot to clip the refrigerator temperature sensor to the appropriate cooling fin, just left it hanging. So as you can see from the graph's it over cooled the interior, but hey it works!!!

Still tucking it away and I will document another modification that I made in a future post.

Hoffman

12-07-2020, 08:20 PM

Freds,
Very cool work you've done. I've thought of some similar changes but don't have the guts to dive in.
I must point out the spelling of "Refridgerator". Love it.

Awesome work sir!

PrevostNewbie

12-07-2020, 11:24 PM

LOL, Fred, that's how i spell it too, are you from New England?

Gil_J

12-08-2020, 09:22 AM

Wow...did I say wow? Of course I did...wow!

freds

12-08-2020, 02:10 PM

LOL, Fred, that's how i spell it too, are you from New England?
No Seattle, hey what ever gets me by spell check...

Thanks guys for the feedback...

PS. Did it by myself mostly. Had a bud help during the final mechanical reassembly before the foam hardened.

freds

12-29-2020, 11:20 AM

Ok a minor detour into the weeds from my basic make it functional route.

After getting the dishwasher and microwave installed the wood trim around it looked a bit out of place and I happened across a list of home improvements that had as one of it's items stainless steel wall paper to recover your appliances.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QQB3W2G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/stainless.jpg

So at first glance it looks like I have custom stainless steel trim to finish out my appliance column.

However it didn't stick too well to wood; as I just wrapped it and didn't do any surface treatment, thinking it would work better on metal. Stainless steel shouldn't have a bubble here and there!!!

But hey it was only ten bucks and a bit of time!

PrevostNewbie

12-29-2020, 11:45 AM

Looks great!

freds

01-04-2021, 10:20 AM

I haven’t posted much lately, been pushing towards getting ready to travel this month. Lots of little systems that have been started but are not finished, so no final result to post even though it’s going well. Just sticking to critical path items.

Anyway, this post is about my first Moochdocking test with items that just arrived from amazon yesterday.

As part of my DIY hydronic design, I used two RV style water heaters to hold and warm the glycol for the system.

When being used with electricity these two heaters are wired on each side of the 50AMP service plug (same for the air conditioners).

So anyway, the expected shore power scenarios are:

1. Single 120V extension cord.
2. Two 120V Extension cords to different circuits.
3. Single 120V 30AMP connection.
4. Dual 120V 30AMP connection, with 30AMP extension cord to unused camp site.
5. True 50 AMP RV service

I found the Two 120V Extension cords to different circuits solution from watching the following YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ZucqclD80

The parts that I ordered to do this are:

1 EA https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007H5WUGI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
2 EA https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BUU5YA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

30AMP extension cords not ordered, but considering:

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Extension-PowerGrip-Handles-55191/dp/B000BUU5YU/ref=sr_1_4?crid=37AJGA63KR52S&dchild=1&keywords=camco+30+amp+cord&qid=1609735828&s=automotive&sprefix=campco+30%2Cautomotive%2C217&sr=1-4

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Extension-PowerGrip-Convenient-Carrying/dp/B004809YBE/ref=sr_1_3?crid=37AJGA63KR52S&dchild=1&keywords=camco+30+amp+cord&qid=1609735828&s=automotive&sprefix=campco+30%2Cautomotive%2C217&sr=1-3

I really, really like the combiner cord as my first use was after dark!!! Each input leg has an LED to show that it is being fed power. The NEAM 14-50 female end had two LED's which I used as a mini flashlight to find the mating plug in one of my equipment bays.

So anyway back to some take a way’s on my hydronic system:

1. Diesel boiler runs at full power until the input temperature caches up with the output. At which point it throttles back. So, I will add an automation to detect this and automatically turn it off until the relight point is reached.

Running toward peek temperature:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/hydronicRunUp.jpg

After the peak:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/hightemperaturedip.jpg

2. The maximum temperature that the water heaters will heat to electrically is 140 degrees with no adjustment controls.

3. When running on extension cords you don’t really want to draw more than 1800 watts peaks.
The water heater's I selected pull about 1500 watts when energized. Not sure I can keep the bus warm on 3000 watts in colder temperatures, so hey another automation control option to kick the diesel boiler on when it can’t keep up.

4. My previously posted solar simulator to charge via shore power must be controlled to get under the maximum peak draw. So, if a water heater on the same circuit is energized then the power draw needs to be turned down. So, I will have the automation logic automatically turn the power draw down if the hydronic output temperature is below 150 degrees and the heater circuits might kick in.

So anyway last night I ran the diesel boiler until it reached peak (no temperature control on the interior zones yet) and then turned on both water/glycol heaters with heat distribution to all zones and left the bus Moochdocking from two 120V outlets on separate circuits.

Here are the results (note the switch over was around 8PM):

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/MoochDockingOvernight.jpg

As you can see it fairly much held it's own, though it only got down to around 43 degrees last night. Just need to decide the criteria to decide when to kick in the diesel boiler assist for the automation logic.

PrevostNewbie

01-04-2021, 10:00 PM

Good Stuff Fred, once i get my bus in good shape I plan on pulling out my Country Coach ECC and replacing it with a PLC control.

freds

01-05-2021, 06:27 PM

Good Stuff Fred, once i get my bus in good shape I plan on pulling out my Country Coach ECC and replacing it with a PLC control.

I am very much in love with Node Red. The graphics that I have been showing are great, but unless I limit the data points it tends to overwhelm a raspberry pi 4. However using a MQTT broker as the interchange; it is easy to split the functionality. So I may move the GUI code portion to a PC virtual machine.

freds

02-01-2021, 11:25 AM

I have not posted in a while. The last month has been very busy for me in the run up to attending my first bus rally in Quartzite AZ. With the Covid chaos I wanted to attend a small rally and do a shake down first trip (three months) to decide if I am going to do this full time before I move out of my main domicile.

Anyway, given that I am a major tinker I had a project that is bleeding edge for inclusion in the bus which necessitate spending two and half weeks learning FreeCAD and coming up with the design and then another week assembling the mechanical portions and installing into one of my bays before departing, more on that project later.

All this precluded a leisurely departure for the five-day rally and I just made it for the last day of the bus conversion get together. I met a lot of people who was interested in the things that I was doing to my bus, either that or I was simply fresh meat after they had spent the previous four days with each other LOL!!!

I did not really get see other people’s buses as I was basically fried with all the rushing to make it and I will have to say this trip was about a month too early for me, given that my bus was still basically a construction zone. I.E. Clearing boxes of stuff off the bed each evening to be able to sleep.

I also missed the big tent event in Quartzite.

The route that I took from Seattle to Quartzite was a bit weird in that I took I-5 to Portland OR and then back roads direct which was mostly two-lane roads. Saw one patrol car in my entire trip.

I have seen discussion on the loneliest highway in Nevada and I would have to say that this route must have been the second loneliest highway as I went multiple times for at least 45 minutes before seeing someone coming from the other direction.

Probably not the wisest routing choice for my first long trip. But I have driven the route from Seattle down I-5 to the bay area, numerous times and I am a bit sick of it.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/QuartzsiteRoute.jpg

The bus did great on this trip and crossed multiple 6000-foot summits without any overheating problems which was a major topic at the rally. It only used one quart of oil for the trip, most of which I think is on the back of the bus from Detroit Diesel leaks.

The only mechanical failure was a broken zip tie where one of my air horns had gotten crunched in the past by a previous owner.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/CrunchedHorn.jpg

However, you do know that you are out in the boonies when there is a single four hole-er rest stop servicing both sides of the road and it includes a horse exercise area!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/HorseExersize.jpg

Other than being rushed it was a great trip, unwinding after the rally and helping another busnut with an electrical problem, while cleaning up things in my bus that I wasn't able to do before leaving. Finishing plumbing so the shower works, etc.

PrevostNewbie

02-01-2021, 07:53 PM

Hi Fred, I was there also, bus less, but there, wish we had the time to Sync up , maybe at the next one.

freds

02-02-2021, 12:06 PM

Hi Fred, I was there also, bus less, but there, wish we had the time to Sync up , maybe at the next one.

Yeah, I should have sent out a heads up, but was nose to the bloody grindstone before I left.

I am going to be in the Quartzsite area for at least the next two weeks and then will migrate to either Phoenix or Yuma.

PrevostNewbie

02-02-2021, 05:16 PM

I hear ya regarding the work to be done, At least you got your Bus there, I was in a car HaHa. I still have a bunch of things to do before I am road worthy including Air Bags, Shocks, Valves etc etc. plus a DMV visit once they open up again to get my Vin inspection and plates. Hoping for the Maiden Voyage this summer.

freds

02-02-2021, 11:06 PM

Just now getting around to documenting the TV lift that I used in my bus.

I purchased it off of Amazon at the following link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075PMXX4F/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dSQlJtLrL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

I first used this with my 75 inch TV (hey go big or go home...).

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/led75.jpg

However even I had to admit that it was too big in the bus, plus it weighted a lot and I was going to have to add a significant amount of bracing.

I had been wandering around Costco and noticed that there was a 55 inch OLED TV at a decent price and when you look at the screen portion it is only about 1/4 inch thick on top. The bottom is thicker as that's where electronics are. But hey it's a much lighter unit and you don't need two people to mount it or move it around.

Here's a side view of the TV.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/oled55.jpg

And a image of the screen:

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/oledpicture.jpg

The above picture doesn't display the clarity that I get from this LG OLED TV, it also has an AI mode for the video and audio that does real well upscaling the video's that you get over a cellular data connection.

The lift is totally silent and had no problem with the the 75 inch TV which as I mentioned took two guys to move.

It's current position is based on centering the 75 inch TV, so I will be moving it to the left and closer to the wall. I will also adjust the mount so it will have a travel position when dropped down to the floor to rest on padding. Also in the dropped position it doesn't obstruct the windows.

I will also be creating a drop down desk in front of it, so it will be totally hidden unless in the raised position.

PrevostNewbie

02-02-2021, 11:28 PM

Well done going Big, That looks awesome. I have to get a couple TV's for my bus in the next couple of months.

freds

02-07-2021, 04:47 PM

Here’s preliminary view of the plumbing for my recirculating shower, the bus originally came with a grey water shower dump valve.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/GreyWaterOrginal.jpg

The way it was originally designed is that the pumping connection at the top routes the grey water into the downward pipe, when the valve is closed the water backs up and then goes through the water trap and into my grey/black water tank.

In my case I replaced the manual valve with a sediment filter and electrically driven valve that is normally closed.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/GreyWaterValveFilter.jpg

The rest of the system consists of:

1. Dual backflow check valve
2. Electrically driven auto closing three-way valve (normal shower when not activated)
3. Heat exchanger for hot water (kind of hidden in this picture)
4. RV style water pump
5. Dual filters
6. UV sterilizer

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/RecirculatingShowerStuff.jpg

Plumbing is done, now onto the electrical portion. Initially I will just use a five gallon bucket as the recirculation tank that you see in the second picture. Will custom build something else later.

The valve above the initial sediment filter gives access to fresh water to prime the recirculating system.

Joe Camper

02-07-2021, 07:38 PM

I think a recirculating shower is a hard sell.

freds

02-08-2021, 02:53 PM

I think a recirculating shower is a hard sell.

Depends on your usage scenarios; if you are moving from one RV park to another than yes a hard sell.

In my case I am setting my bus up for maximum boondocking, where water consumption is a issue. Plus hey I like to take long showers LOL!!!

Joe Camper

02-08-2021, 05:44 PM

I take showers twice a year weather I need one or not.

Listen buddy my Pete is still so ruff I won't be seen in large venues yet. I am not knocking u actually quite interested in your experiences. Just saying.

Build some condensation generators. Ever see um?

Joe Camper

02-08-2021, 07:58 PM

PrevostNewbie

02-08-2021, 08:20 PM

Another Example of "I can't tell if Joe is joking or not".

freds

02-09-2021, 11:59 AM

https://Air2watersolutions.com

Model a45 or the a150 on a good day can make 40 gallons. On a bad day it would still pull enough to keep things fluid.

If I had one of these in my trailer id use it to support a washing machine when im out on the road for my work clothes. In typical fl humidity it would be very productive and bet enough to provide an adiquate supply. An almost endless supply of water would be a dream? Is this a fantasy?

I've seen very clever homade ones too. Out in the desert probably u would be reduced to the homemade ones that require no power and produce very little product. But that's an assumption.

Interesting, however not sure it is practical for an RV as even the smallest one would consume 17KWH of power a day which would require drastically upsizing the solar array.

I have 3KW of solar panels that are flat mounted (covering fairly much all of my 40ft roof) and peak power seems to be 10am to 2pm at 1800 watts which basically gets me actually topped off by the end of day given my other uses cycling a 8KWH battery pack storage.

I would like to see the links that you have for the home made ones. So far on my first trip to Quartzsite I haven't had the need to run the AC, which could be a water source.

Joe Camper

02-09-2021, 04:22 PM

U tube Fred.

freds

06-23-2021, 10:43 PM

Ok just starting my next major project which is finishing a dash upgrade that a previous, previous owner started on and quit as soon as they had enough gauges to make it drivable.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/StartingDash.jpg

As you can see in the above picture, only the gauges circled in orange are working and the idiot lights in green which are extremely hard to see.

This is something I have planned on doing for sometime and after experiencing the rats nest of wires that the PO left behind I was considering just making the jump to an electronic dash. Which will save a lot of time on my part.

After meeting Scott from the YouTube channel "This Old Bus" at the BCI rally; who is doing a similar conversion. I finally got kicked into high gear on this and now have a number of items on my bench to start testing/developing a replacement electronic dash solution for my bus.

I have a non-electronic 8V71TA engine in my bus, so the challenge is to get sensors wired up to some form of hub in the engine compartment that then sends out CANBUS messages to be displayed by the electronic dash.

The advantage of a CANBUS solution is that you will only need two wires for a signal data bus through out the vehicle.

If I had DDEC based engine. I would need is a protocol converter of some sort. But since I don't I will not expend any effort on that path.

Still going to maintain the current analog gauges that I now have as a backup.

My current wish list for instrumentation is:

1. Coolant temperature Left and Right banks TA8V71 engine
2. Turbine inlet temperature Left and Right. (Bus has the sensors, but with the half @$# instrument panel upgrade they were omitted.)
3. Engine oil temperature
4. Engine oil pressure
5. Transmission temperature
6. Turbo boost pressure
7. Low coolant level
8. Engine RPM
9. Speedometer
10. Brake system air pressure
11. Idiots lights and other indicators (including low coolant level)
12. Fuel pressure

freds

06-23-2021, 10:46 PM

In my research on the electronic dash replacement.

I stumbled across a YouTube video on a narrow boat where they take excess solar power after the batteries are fully charged and dump the energy into the hot water heater.

They were using a manually controlled variac to soak up the excess solar power and were basically setting a value of 500 watts.

You know those kind of idea's that percolate in your brain and wake up at 1AM?

This is one of them!!!

In my DIY hydronic system I make use a couple RV hot water heaters as my heat storage.

When I am on shore power they cycle between 180 and 120 degrees due to the large hysteria between the high and low points on the temperature switch.

The hotter the hydronic storage temperature the shorter the time period that the toe kick heaters need to be running to heat the bus.

So my idea is going to be to kill two birds with one stone by monitoring the tank temperature (which I am already doing for logging) and turn off the power input just before it reaches maximum temperature so that the temperature switch never triggers.

Plus I can also use it as solar power dump controller to maximize my solar power usage and more and likely have more hot water availability when off grid.

If the automation fails in the off mode, no big deal. If it fails on; then the normal built in switch takes over.

freds

06-23-2021, 10:50 PM

The electronic dash project is still soaking up a quite a bit of my time of my tinkering time.

My last post was on solar load dumps.

The heat wave that has been plaguing the western US has finally creped into the Seattle area. So it has gotten hot for us also.

Hey when I am not using the bus there is excess solar production that is going to waste.

My battery pack voltage range is 18 volts to 24 volts with my Tesla house batteries. So I threw into node-red a simple automation flow to:

1. Battery voltage greater than 23V, interior temperature > outside temperature + 10. Turn on the air conditioning.
2. Exterior temperature less then 70 degrees and interior temperature less then exterior turn off air conditioning.
3. Battery voltage less than 22.25 turn off air conditioning.

So with this automation in place I can escape/retreat to the bus/man cave to tinker or watch videos on the big screen OLED TV at any point in time and not walk into a heat soaked bus.

freds

07-01-2021, 05:53 PM

Ok the whole country heard that we had 110 degree weather here in the pacific northwest this last Monday; with the heat dome that was stuck over us.

Needless to say that it was a challenge with the bus also!!!

It turns out that when the cooling fan on my inverter comes on; it exhausts air out the bottom of the inverter, which then got sucked back in as it ross; so not much net cooling. Got to say I didn't think ahead about this when I installed the inverter..

So anyway the inverter tripped offline, resulting in no bloody air conditioning!!!

Had I been living in the bus, I would have been headed fast to somewhere I could plug it in to shore power and run the generator in the meantime.

It turns out there is a vent to the outside in the same area of the floor, so I created a duct to force the hot air outside.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/InverterAirDuct.jpg

To our relief the temperature dropped by 30 degrees on the next day.

PS. My roommates mom who lives in Phoenix AZ, called and asked if she wanted to come for a visit and cool down...

Gil_J

07-01-2021, 09:42 PM

Why not install a deflector under the bus so the heat being exhausted is directed away from the intake?

Ok the whole country heard that we had 110 degree weather here in the pacific northwest this last Monday; with the heat dome that was stuck over us.

Needless to say that it was a challenge with the bus also!!!

It turns out that when the cooling fan on my inverter comes on; it exhausts air out the bottom of the inverter, which then got sucked back in as it ross; so not much net cooling. Got to say I didn't think ahead about this when I installed the inverter..

So anyway the inverter tripped offline, resulting in no bloody air conditioning!!!

Had I been living in the bus, I would have been headed fast to somewhere I could plug it in to shore power and run the generator in the meantime.

It turns out there is a vent to the outside in the same area of the floor, so I created a duct to force the hot air outside.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/InverterAirDuct.jpg

To our relief the temperature dropped by 30 degrees on the next day.

PS. My roommates mom who lives in Phoenix AZ, called and asked if she wanted to come for a visit and cool down...

freds

08-04-2021, 02:49 PM

Bus nut's with older buses talk a lot about repowering our buses, this is about repowering my HP Laptop LOL!!!

While I was on my recent trip; I found myself powering up the inverter to then charge up the laptop and other devices. Which I thought was kind of a silly power tax to pay. The biggest goal is avoiding a 80-100 watt overhead to power a 40-75 watt load.

In case you haven't noticed practically everything USB related is in a state of transition to the USB C standard and a lot of devices are switching to USB-C PD (power delivery).

While I could and probably will buy a new laptop at some point in time that accepts USB-C power input directly.

It turns out that are adapter cords out there for some older laptops. Two such cords that I have tested with my HP laptop are:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08N65Y5D5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GL9WXQ4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

An adapter cord works because most laptops accept 19V as their charge voltage.

With the above adapter cords, I recently tested this unit on the 12V input in my bus:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08Y7MLQCN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This device is also 24V compatible, so I expect no problem running it off of my house battery bank.

Note not all USB-C chargers are created equal!!! There are two basic specifications out there:

PD 1.0 which supports 5V, 12V and 20V devices
PD 2.0/3.0 which supports 5V, 9V, 14V and 20V devices.

However not all devices support all voltages!!! I make extensive use of the following for my home automation system.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07LCBKZSG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And it only supports up to 12V out, even when the input power is 24V. So be sure to read the fine print before you buy a USB-C PD power supply!!!

Gil_J

08-04-2021, 09:28 PM

I recommend using a regulated DC to DC to converter when powering electronics. TRC is a source for quality products. https://www.trcelectronics.com/

Bus nut's with older buses talk a lot about repowering our buses, this is about repowering my HP Laptop LOL!!!

While I was on my recent trip; I found myself powering up the inverter to then charge up the laptop and other devices. Which I thought was kind of a silly power tax to pay. The biggest goal is avoiding a 80-100 watt overhead to power a 40-75 watt load.

In case you haven't noticed practically everything USB related is in a state of transition to the USB C standard and a lot of devices are switching to USB-C PD (power delivery).

While I could and probably will buy a new laptop at some point in time that accepts USB-C power input directly.

It turns out that are adapter cords out there for some older laptops. Two such cords that I have tested with my HP laptop are:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08N65Y5D5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GL9WXQ4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

An adapter cord works because most laptops accept 19V as their charge voltage.

With the above adapter cords, I recently tested this unit on the 12V input in my bus:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08Y7MLQCN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This device is also 24V compatible, so I expect no problem running it off of my house battery bank.

Note not all USB-C chargers are created equal!!! There are two basic specifications out there:

PD 1.0 which supports 5V, 12V and 20V devices
PD 2.0/3.0 which supports 5V, 9V, 14V and 20V devices.

However not all devices support all voltages!!! I make extensive use of the following for my home automation system.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07LCBKZSG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And it only supports up to 12V out, even when the input power is 24V. So be sure to read the fine print before you buy a USB-C PD power supply!!!

freds

12-21-2021, 02:03 PM

This is probably a question for Joe and given the ancient not sure anyone can answer it.

I want to convert at least a couple of my bay doors from rubber hinges to pantograph where they swing out and up vertical to the ground.

Anyone heard of this being done or kits to do it?

Thanks

freds

03-17-2022, 03:27 PM

Ok this is my second shake down trip in the Covid era...

Doing the snowbird migration south from Seattle to warmer climate in AZ.

Cousin in Wyoming sent me notification of -14 in Wyoming a few days ago...

Anyway the Phoenix AZ area has been swamped with covid refugees from the east coast and Canada now that they can cross the border.

To the point that it is impossible to find a RV parking space. I only got a spot outside of Quartzsite in the Phoenix area because i stayed with them last year and they knew me and I was allowed to dry camp in a dusty lot next door to the actual RV park with no services.

Anyway there are a number of thing that I want address on my bus/motorhome for the long term.

Recently I have had problems with the diesel boiler for my DIY hydronic system which I will document more on my build thread and the only backup to shore power is the diesel generator which had major problems in my case. In this dry camping lot I hear lots of generators....

Anyway the typical response for this year is don't call anyone on the phone as they won't call you back. Show up at their counter and talk to them face to face even if you have drive 90 minutes...

So anyway there is so many clothes that I can throw atop of the bed when it hits 38 degrees during the night.

While my solar/Tesla Battery pack configuration it can do a lot of things, it can't heat the cabin in the dead of the night, only shore power in a RV park or the diesel boiler can do that!!!

OK how does this get back to my bad day?

Practically anybody that you talk to in the phoenix area this year has the following rejections:

1. Your rig is older then 10 years
2. You are living in a motorhome and I don't do that...
3. I might be able to get to you in a couple of months from now (like April).
4. You are nor an over the road trucker, etc...

Anyway I found a nice place northwest of Phoenix that is willing to do what ever you request (as long as it's not in the cabin) with the hour meter running. You pay for how every long it takes.

How bloody refreshing!!!

Anyway their work location is a bit difficult to access and with the promise that I could dry camp in their storage lot I had a bit of euphoria and managed to screw up and side swipe a fire hydrant!!!

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/badday1.jpg

I do admit that I was a bit over the moon as someone is willing to work with all the different things that I need (so many rejections) and I am not as wary as I normally am and in my stupid defense I had re-adjusted the mirrors on that side the previous day...

Any way it turns out that there is two types of fire hydrants. Cold weather and not!!! So dry verse wet, run over a cold weather hydrant and you simply break it off at ground level as the valve that turns it on is below the frost line...

Warm weather and you get the fountain!!! Needless to say I didn't apply that much force, just re-clocked it so that the big outlet doesn't face the street.

https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/badday2.jpg

So now I am in the market for a complete bay door and the following panel on my 1980 Prevost and hey one big awh $#!%!!

I have talked to Prevost and they don't have any parts in their system for my bus.

Doesn't anyone know of junk yard that has a bus being parted out around my vintage?

Thanks

georgiapeachinc

03-17-2022, 05:12 PM

PrevostNewbie

03-17-2022, 06:31 PM

Sorry to hear that Fred, have you tried these guys?

https://ibp.parts/collections/parts-aftermarket-aftermarket-prevost

freds

03-18-2022, 12:45 PM

Fred,
I have been following along on your progress. I'm very impressed with all that you have done. This is a project that very few would have taken on. As a trucker my son and I always buy older used equipment and rebuild as we go along making $ with them. It takes a certain kind of person to resurrect something from extinction. I would be interested if you could share your background since you seem to have a mechanical inclination for all types of repairs. I always find it interesting to see a little bit of the man behind the machine.

Well thank you!!!

Your basic high school dropout (bored JD), did a bit of time in the army; four initially and then three more in a fit of insanity. I was in the artillery as a cannoneer and wandering across the firing point helped a guy make a generator run better and wound up in the fire direction center which is equivalent to driving the baggage cart at the airport and then working in the control tower. When I first arrived everything was manual with charts, protractors and graphical firing tables (special purpose slide rules). We then got a digital computer with a rotating memory drum, which got me into computers (repair and programming) and done related stuff ever since.

Kind of a focus self taught guy who beats his head against the wall until it comes out the other side or the problem is solved.