Engine maintenance

[rbeecher]

Sometime in the last couple of weeks there was a post regarding top end engine maintenance, someone mentioned they had records indicating it had been done to their coach but then discovered the access door in the back of the coach had never been removed!

I have not been able to find the thread or posts, can someone direct me?

Thanks,

Richard Beecher

[Kevin Erion]

Richard, That would be me, I recommend very strongly that at 100,000 miles the valves and jakes if you are lucky enough to have be adjusted and looked at.
Kevin

[Jon Wehrenberg]

According to the Detroit Diesel maintenance schedule there should be a valve lash adjustment every 60,000 miles.

That's what it says. DD technicians have also said to me that if it is running good and getting good mileage do not mess with it.

I don't know what is correct.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I would tend to agree with DD.

A similar circumstance.
Cat used to suggest new rod and maid bearings every 300000 but when I asked about it they told me " We have taken too many apart to find 0 wear, take oil samples at oil changes and don't worry about it. Current mialage 900000+

I ran my 3406 to 550000 before I took it in to adjust valves and jake. Also had the "updated injecters" put in at the time. Accept for a VERY SLITE difference in the smoothness at idle I could not tell any difference in preformance or mialage

Jon, put the first load on since Dec.22 and put the coveralls on at the end of the day to grease, found a lower king pin cap with 2 of 3 bolts, the heads, snapped off. I'm on the way out the door to put a new set in.

Went and had it washed yesterday. That only happens about once a year. Mabye I'll take a picture or 2.

Once again the coveralls and grease gun pay off. She still has never failed to get me back to the barn under her own power:D

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

I'll bet you and Debbie a dinner when you come down to TN you will agree with the following statement.

I find frequent routine maintenance greatly contributes to long service life, but equally important is that during that regular maintenance it gives you an opportunity to inspect and identify and correct any problems that might be found. You talked about sheared bolts in the kingpin cap. I have found nails in tires and broken hose clamps, the beginnings of minor leaks, and have heard air leaks, all of which would not have been detected until I was either under the coach, or they went from minor problems to serious problems.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We must have went to different schools togeather:rolleyes:

[rbeecher]

Kevin, Jon, Joe,

Thanks for the responses. I apologize for the lenghty post but hope it will prevent anyone contemplating a pre-owned bus purchase from falling into the same trap we did.

While at DD in Miami last week to have a Do Not Shift Lite diagnosed, I was asked if our coach had the 60,000 mile top end engine service done. My reply was, I don't know. This question and my reply immediately reminded me of Kevin's experience with the receipt that showed the engine service had been done to his bus when it was later discoverd that it most likely had not been done. Btw, DD advised the first engine service should be at 60k and at each 100k thereafter.

The question would seem to be, why didn't I know if the engine service had been done to our bus?

We have owned our bus just under six months and less than 10,000 miles. It had one previous owner who was a high level executive at a multi billion dollar worldwide company. During the presale inspection and negotiations I was adamant about getting service records, name and contact information of the previous owner, and asked what the dealer we would be purchasing from be doing in the way of service before delivery.

We never saw any receipts despite my repeated requests and for 'privacy reasons' were never given the name of the previous owner. What we did get was the assurance all systems would be checked for operation and the bus would be fully serviced. After our purchase we learned what really happened was the engine and generator oil and filters were changed and not much else. Somewhat short of the "fully serviced" scenario I expected.

Back to the Do Not Shift Light. The light came on while driving south on I-95 from Boca Raton to Ft. Lauderdale in stop and go traffic. The transmission would not come out of 5th gear which is not fun in stop and go traffic. I called DD and the decision was made to take the bus in for diagnosis the next day. The lap top was hooked up and standing and road test diagnosis were done. The results were not incouraging. An appointment was made to return for further investigation. DD removed a lower module and the decision was made to remove the trans. The next day, I saw a transmission that was basically trashed inside. There were large pieces of metal shavings, burnt, bent, grooved and even fused together metal pieces from the excessive heat produced from broken down transmission fluid that had long since been unable to do its intended job. The filters showed a date of 6/2001. We learned the bus had sat for two years before we purchased it and DD estimates the filters had not been changed for five years and probably the fluid to have caused the extensive internal damage.

What did we learn from all of this? First, when in doubt, don't. No matter how clean and well taken care of the bus appears, walk away if you do not have proof the service(s) have been done. Second, make sure you get in writing what services the dealer has done. Third, be prepared to spend some serious money if you do not have service records before you buy. We are looking at a $12,000 bill.

Needless to say, we will be having all engine services done while the bus is at DD this week.

Before we purchased, we did not know POG existed, nor did we know about PDI but sure wish we had. Membership in POG is truely priceless. The good news? We will enjoy our trip to POG much more than we would have sitting by the side of the road.

Richard Beecher
96 Vogue 40 XL

[Kevin Erion]

Richard, sorry to hear about the transmission problems, I walked away from the "Perfect XLII" for the same reasons you described. If you can't see the invoices then I agree with your statement and walk away.
Kevin

[win42]

We never saw any receipts despite my repeated requests and for 'privacy reasons' were never given the name of the previous owner. What we did get was the assurance all systems would be checked for operation and the bus would be fully serviced. After our purchase we learned what really happened was the engine and generator oil and filters were changed and not much else. Somewhat short of the "fully serviced" scenario I expected.

I think it would be beneficial to all to list the name of the dealer that gave you the service assurance's, and did not do them. These kind of people should be drummed out of business.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I think it would be beneficial to all to list the name of the dealer that gave you the service assurance's, and did not do them. These kind of people should be drummed out of business.

I agree with Harry, we all need to know the name of the dealer that said but did not do the work they promised? We all need to know for future purchases who we can and can't trust to do what they say they are going to do.

Sorry you had to go through this, but we all thank you for the heads up warning.

Hope to see you in Kerrville.

Gary S

[rbeecher]

I am in the process of trying to receive some compensation for the now rather large oversight on the part of this "dealer". Of course the oversight wouldn't be so large now if they had just done the right thing in the first place. We'll see how much they want to sell me another coach in the next probably three years.

Don't worry, you will all hear the outcome one way or the other. I am hoping they take the opportunity to do the right thing now.

Richard Beecher
96 VOGUE 40XL

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Good points there Richard. Don't be burning your bridges unnecessarily on our account! Thanks for the reminder that there are those out there that can not be trusted.:eek:

I would think that if you had something in writing, indicating all service was/would be performed you have the potential for a law suite that would cover 100% compensation!:D

Try and get a new trany and a complete engine chasis service out of it! (isn't that what you thought you were getting in the first place anyway)
Tell them you want to be able to tell us all what a great xyz__ Co. they are and that we should have no fear in dealing with them.:cool: :rolleyes:

[Ray Davis]

Perhaps I'm missing something. I'm certainly glad that this particular vendor might be stepping up to the plate. But, I think I would certainly STILL be wary of a vendor who stepped up to the plate only AFTER they were caught for negligent (if not illegal) workmanship?

I can't think of anything which would make me feel warm and fuzzy who did this to any customer.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ray Davis;Perhaps I'm missing something. I'm certainly glad that this particular vendor might be stepping up to the plate. But, I think I would certainly STILL be wary of a vendor who stepped up to the plate only AFTER they were caught for negligent (if not illegal) workmanship?

I can't think of anything which would make me feel warm and fuzzy who did this to any customer.
Ray,
At this point there exists the possibility that there was an oversight on the part of an employee at a dealer that did not have the proper procedure in place to eliminate this type of error. Such as a line item sign-off sheet for each operation.

To me the important thing here is what the attitude will be on the part of the dealer. Richard was wronged and justly needs to be compensated. The minimum would be the service that was promised but not performed. Just being reminded to take precautions and not let this happen to yourself is what is important at this point in time. I think this could happen anywhere and in any business with most products. I would not condemn anyone until I had all the facts. Just because the work was not performed does not mean there was an intent to defraud!
I think this is the reason many especially in this group perform their own maintenance, or as I have seen in print here that they go where they are allowed to watch the work being performed. :cool:

;) JIM

[rbeecher]

Jim, Ray,

First let me say that it is always my policy to allow anyone I do business with to make good, at least the first time. It always depends on the situation. In this case I was told by the service manager, and I will quote, ' sales told me to change the filters and oil in the engine and generator'.

These people have always been very good to me and they did alot of things at no charge after the sale, I didn't ask to have them done, I just informed them of some concerns. After that, the party was over and I just started paying. No one said, that's it Richard, you pick up the tab from here, it was just sort of understood.

When I brought up the transmission issue last week, I was reminded of all they had done for me after the sale. That's great and I always expressed my appreciation sincerely. I genuinely like all of them. However, I feel the fact that the transmission wasn't serviced is not an acceptable oversight under any circumstances, especially for a coach with 76,000 on it at the time and one that sat for two years before being resold. In my opinion, that is an unforgiveable lack of attention on their part.

I am giving them time to mull it over, it is a very busy time of year. I do hope to hear some good news in the next couple of days.

Richard

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Richard,

You are obviously being very cautious about mentioning the "dealer's" name. Until the dealer decides what he is going to do that is probably wise.

For those who have not yet bought a coach there is a need for some understanding about these coaches. The shell is produced by Prevost, and Prevost establishes the maintenance standards, which includes the maintenance requirements of the engine and transmission, both of which are produced and serviced by others in the event of a problem.

The converter takes the shell and puts a house inside it. The converter supports the house portion.

How this applies to your situation gets very cloudy. The owner has the ultimate responsibility to maintain the coach to the Prevost standards. I recently posted that I have never heard any owner say that they did not maintain their coach and they treated it like crap. The reverse is true. Every owner thinks they treat their coach as well as it can be treated.

When an owner trades in a coach or sells it to a dealer the dealer is usually told about the wonderful maintenance. Unless the owner presents records, or has had someone that keeps records service the coach, it is likely that the owners word is all the dealer has to rely on. Does a dealer have a dog in this fight....? In my opinion yes because of two things. He repeated an unverified statement (or actually lied). Secondly, had there been any doubt the dealer could have run the codes and performed all the service required to zero out the maintenance so you as a new owner would have a starting point.

This is a clear case illustrating the importance of either personally verifying everything, or walking away in the absence of a guarantee.

The reason I made the earlier distinction between the dealer and Prevost is because it is critical for a new owner to recognize a dealer may possess tremendous skills and knowledge about the house, but the expertise about the shell and running gear lies with Prevost and the suppliers of major components. They are part of the prepurchase investigative process.

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for the clarification. The way I was reading it was that the dealer specifically lied about not doing some required/requested maintenace, and only came clean when evidence showed otherwise.

I have heard other stories, from hopefully reputable people, where certain vendors will tend to think of anyone who owns a Prevost as "Daddy Richbucks', and will either do a lousy job, or do more work than is necessary, just to jack up a repair bill.

Strangely enough I was warned by a DD rep himself about some of their authorized service facilities. He spoke of "attitudes" at some of the shops regarding rv owners.

[rbeecher]

Jon,

Good comments and all valid.

Let me clear the air on a couple of points. I was advised shortly after the sale that the dealer has a location in the same metropolitan area as the original bus owner. A tech who I came to know during a visit to conduct repairs while we were on the road stated the bus owner had this tech do his service at the dealership. The tech also knew the coach very well as he helped to build it. He knew the owner very well visiting his home on occasion for bus related items.

Now, did the tech do the Prevost part of the maintenance? That is an unknown to me. However, the dealer would have been able to pull the existing records for this coach together very easily in this particular situation. I was not even allowed to have those records. So, either they didn't care about my insistance at seeing the records or the maintenance was not done in the first place or at least not as often as it should have been. My mistake. It all goes back to the point, in my opinion, that a reputable dealer wouldn't deliver a bus with 76k that sat for two years w/o changing all fluids and filters, in my opinion. I would guess most on this site would agree.

If the dealer stated all systems will be checked for operation and the bus will be fully serviced, there is little room for interpretation in that. Ray questioned if the dealer lied to me. Well, it would seem that what the service manager in the location where I purchased the bus was told to do was alot less than what I was told would be done.

I haven't even mentioned the salesperson, who is a veteran in the business. He was very good at saying I don't know or he would simply not answer a question, specifically the ones regarding maintenance and upkeep. He was really the first clue I should have paid attention to. Again, my mistake.

At this point many wouldn't be feeling too sorry since there were signs I should have, or if I chose to, could have paid attention to. But, we are still very happy with our purchase and we bought the bus very right, even considering the repairs to date. Would we have preferred to spend the money on say, the interior and other items, sure. (still thinking about that open house in Kerrville)

What we have here is a customer who is not dissappointed with his bus, but indeed very dissappointed with the selling dealer on this particular issue.

Richard Beecher
96 Vogue XL 40

[garyde]

One clue I learned in regard to maintenance: Liberty puts handwritten dates on all Filters and replacement parts so you know when everything was replaced. Another thing about Dealers, a ligitimate Dealer will know everything about the used product he is selling. It's in there best interest to know ,for Liability reasons if nothing else. That's one of the reasons Liberty does such a thorogh job on inspecting a used Coach before resale. I can not buy the idea that the Dealer was not in the know. It's there job to know. Gary

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Richard,

When the time is right please post all the details. This is very instructional to new and potential owners. Gary is right about evidence of recent service such as marking filters, but there are so many hidden maintenance areas that there is no substitute for an accurate listing of services performed.

On both my coaches I have created a detailed maintenance log that records every repair or maintenance performed. I have done this not because I intend to sell the coach, but because there are so many maintenance tasks required, the only way I can keep track of it is to have a record of it. Every owner should have a single place to keep a listing by date and mileage all that has been done to the coach. It not only serves to help with the scheduling of tasks, but it gives clues as to the service life of items such as brake pads or belts.

[Jim Skiff]

We're looking for a volunteer for this seminar hosted by Zimmerman Coach.

Zimmerman Coach, Systems Safety and Reliability This seminar will be led by Steve D'Antonio Passage Maker Magazine's Technical Editor and VP of operations of Zimmerman Coach of Mathews, Virginia.

If you (and your coach) would like to participate please let me know. First come first served.

Jim

[rbeecher]

Jon, Gary,

It is not my purpose here to condemn any converter, but I do very strongly agree that anyone of us out here - new, existing, or about to purchase, owner/buyer, have the right to know who they are working with and who to look to when purchasing or having service performed. The more we know, the better off we are and the better those in the business we work with will be to deal with, hopefully. There may be those in the business who prefer the opposite with the thinking we will have to come to them for everything. I don't subscribe to the later but some are more comfortable there and have the resources. Some, like myself, prefer to have a choice.

Gary, I do have the labels with date and miles on the intake pipe and generator guard but that is all. I absolutely agree that the dealer should know the bus if they are selling it. Selling a bus to someone who has never owned one is a big deal (pun intended) and should be taken very seriously.

As you suggest Jon, I am trying to get a handle on maintenance and to set up a schedule for what needs to be done when and that would have been easier (and less expensive) if I had the records for what was done in the past. There is a great deal to consume in the way of information in order to figure out what maintenance needs to be done in the first place, let alone when. I do alot of sportscar racing at tracks around the country. When we are at the track, we keep records on everything, which tires came off what corner of the car, tire temperatures when we come off the track, and, we keep track of how many hours we have on the engine so we know when it will need to have main bearings, etc. replaced. Those are just a very few of the items we have to pay attention to. WE KEEP WRITTEN RECORDS. Otherwise we might find ourselves in an unsafe car which usually happens at the most in opportune time.

I came to this forum seeking technical advice, an issue I had with the ABS System, brought me out of lurk mode. I now scour the forum archives for any information that will help me understand the Prevost world better and hopefully enjoy the bus more and avoid sitting beside the road. Above all, safety will be enhanced. There is a great deal to take in and I would suggest that if some in the know could put togetther a one? page list of what every owner needs to do in the way of maintenance and review it in a tech session at POG III, that would be outstanding. Maybe this was done at past rallys, I don't know.

Richard
96 Vogue 40 XL

[Ray Davis]

Richard,

Although there is not a specific maintenance tech session scheduled, there is a Q/A and BOF (birds of a feather - by converter) session scheduled on Friday afternoon.

That would be a wonderful time to bring up maintenance issues. I also believe that Jon has posted on another thread his maintenance schedule. It would be nice to try to come up with a full list of maintenance items and times.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Actually as I am trying to refine my own maintenance schedule for my coach I find it is a blend of what Prevost Car has on their site and what I need for the house.

What works for me will not work for others, but when I get it where I want it to be for my particular coach I will post it for everyone.

What makes it so difficult is I am getting detailed. Prevost calls for lubing the chassis as an example. What is lacking there is the fact that I want to identify every single zerk fitting, but contrary to what Tom may say, I don't want to grease every one, every time. Specific examples there are the fittings in the steer compartment such as the U joint on the steering column. On the other hand I absolutely need to grease the kingpins, steering linkage, U joints on the drive shaft, etc.

But I also want to go beyond the information on the Prevost site and include the part numbers of filters, belts, etc. and create a schedule for changing things based on criteria other than the Prevost schedule. I will change bus batteries every five years for example. Ditto with tires. So my schedule somehow needs to reflect that.

I have been playing with this for a while and it seems like whenever I think I got it complete, I run across something I forgot, like the air filters on the Cruise Air units. Then someone like JPJ writes about the roof, so I will include that also.

[rbeecher]

Jon,

And this is all coming from you the seasoned veteran. I am not retired or even semi retired and have very little spare time and for that reason I know it is all the more important for me to understand the maintenence schedule, soon. I feel like I am going to miss something important if I don't get there any minute now. At least I know what most of the parts are that you guys talk about in all the posts. I'll bet I could be stumped at POGIII by several of you on many items though. Maybe a technical quiz will be in the works...

On the transmission side, I have learned some on this site have spoken to their respective converters about my posts, hoping I was not pointing a figure at their beloved service departments. I would do the same and I am pleased that a certain amount of attention has arisen from my predicament. I have had an encouraging conversation this afternoon and expect a decision by Monday or Tuesday. There is a very fine line between retaining a customer or not sometimes and I will say they are listening. I appreciate everyone standing by while I sort this out.

I was at DD in Miami this afternoon and the rebuild is underway as the parts arrived this morning. The other good news is the engine has received a very clean bill of health.

Thanks to everyone for all the "cards and letters". I will have a favourable update soon I trust.

Richard Beecher
96 Vogue 40 XL

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Richard,

This is perhaps good news, bad news. We have been driving a Prevost coach since 1990, and I have assumed virtually 100% responsibility for my maintenance and repairs since around 1994. I have learned an awful lot. The good news is I think I am doing a whole lot that is right. The bad news is that I am still learning and still overlook things.

I don't intend for that to scare you. I do want to emphasize however that there is a lot to these coaches and nobody, not Prevost, not the converter, and not the owner can be expected to ever catch everything. So when you are attempting to orchestrate the maintenance program on your coach make sure the stuff that will really bite you in the butt gets your attention. With the engine and generator make sure they have clean oil and filters. With the transmission make sure it has clean oil and filters. Keep it lubed. Pay attention to the oil level in the hubs and differential. Change your coolant as required and keep the chemistry right between changes. Don't let hoses or belts age to the point where they might fail.

All that is good solid basic stuff. There are other fluid levels such as power steering and AC compressor oil.

When on a trip you need to monitor tire pressures.

All the above deals with the stuff that is going to get expensive if ignored.

But as I am learning, as I try to create a schedule we also have AC coils to clean, filters to clean or replace, and fans to lube. Just when you think you are covering it all you realize the refrigerator coils also need cleaning. And the house water filters need replacing, and the air dryer needs to be serviced.

You can see where I am going.

Try not to let it appear overwhelming. It is not and I can assure you that all that I am going to end up with on my list probably represents a couple of days work for me, or if you choose to have others do it the same amount of time. Once everything is done the first time, then the tasks begin to spread out so while you may lube the coach and change oil every 5000 miles (or two or three times a year) you may only have to change coolant every two years or transmission fluid every four years.

Since everybody uses their coach differently a maintenance schedule becomes a personal thing. I think DD calls for oil changes on a Series 60 every 30,000 miles. I use every 5000 miles and you may wish to do it every 15000 miles. We all have to decide based on how we use the coaches.

Just keep after it and things will work out. But also keep in mind that nobody is as likely to catch what needs to be done as much as you will.

[truk4u]

Richard,

Hang in there, you have been dealt a bad hand, but it will get better and you'll know your bus inside and out in no time.;) It's really not overwelming. Once you get to a good maintenance starting point, then things will fall into place as you move forward. I won't add to any of the suggestions already written, they are all good. A good place to look for a schedule is at Prevost at this site: http://www.prevostcar.com/DB/services/maintenance/XL2%20Lubrication%20Schedule.pdf. There's also a good one on the Stuff Site.

You have everyones support on this board and can talk to most of us anytime by phone. Don't hesitate to ask for a phone number if you need moral support or help. We have to help JPJ all the time!:p

Keep us up to date and keep the posts coming... You'll be smiling like JDUB at a Taco Stand in no time while driving that bus.:cool:

[rbeecher]

Jon, Tom,

Not to worry guys, I'm in it for the long haul. As long as overwhelming is heading toward underwhelming, which it is with all the great resources in this group, it will be an enjoyable ride.

Everything happens for a reason and so far I see nothing but good coming from this experience.

Thanks for all the great pointers and the link.

Richard
96 Vogue 40 XL

[bill&jody]

i had a valve adjust done at the middletown, ct, DD last fall. there wasn't anything pointing to a need for it other than the poor mileage (read, yardage) - i guess i just thought 25 degrees diff in pyrometers was normal. the mileage then was about 127k.

in the process, the tech found that two of the jake controllers, one on each side, had disconnected wires - just broke or fell off. now i have much improved engine braking and a noticable diff in git-up-n-go. just for comparison sake, the cost was about 550. seems like a lot, but then.........

altho the prev owner had a stack of jacksonville prevost maint receipts, i couldn't find one spec'ly pointing to top end, so i just did it. i think i'm glad i did.

wmm

[rbeecher]

That's interesting Bill.

I just had a call from DD and they confirmed a similar finding on my Jake which I run on the low position when I have the trailer along. I had thought a couple of weeks ago that it wasn't doing as much and they found the connection has an issue which is being taken care of today.

I asked them to check it after reading your message yesterday, they had already found the problem by the time I called.

Richard Beecher
96 Vogue XL 40
07 Suburban