Surge Protectors

[dale farley]

This article http://rvtravel.com/great-rv-accessories-newsletter-issue-67/ says they have improved their technology on surge protectors to detect "lost neutrals" both upstream at the RV pedestal and also downstream internal to the RV. I am not sure if other manufacturers (i.e., PI) now offer this feature, but it sounds like a significant step forward. Maybe someone can shed more light on the subject?

[BoaterAl]

Great topic to new Prevost owners....
Here is some free advice for all the new Prevost owners. Buy a surge protector cheap one, expensive one, used one. Second piece of free advice. Plug it in to check the power pole ...before you allow the RV park pole power into your bus.

Had I not followed this simple 1,2,3, step my bus would of still been in Texas hill country. Make a long story short the previous parking RV probably pulled away from pole with the power cord attached to pole. When I plugged in my $300 Progressive surge protector by itself, flipped the switch. What happen was the big bang as they say and the end of my first surge protector.

Many convertors build surge protectors into there bus. I would prefer to sacrifice my hand carry surge protector then bet all the protection on bus installed and what other damage might happen to bus.

Pictured is the Progressive I now carry. cost about $100 bucks used, $150 new. Don't travel without one.

Part number SSP 50X Smart Surge Protector 240V/50amp-50

[Gil_J]

Ditto that you should check your shore power connection before use. As Al pointed out, you can do so with most surge protectors. Keep in mind you must NOT plug the bus into these until they indicate it's safe to do so. You're better served with an active power management device that has an internal relay that disconnects power to the coach if there are any faults in voltage while connected. Too many parks suffer brownouts or low voltage situations in the peak of summer air conditioning use. Progressive Industries, TRC (Surge Guard Brand), and now CAMCO have power protection devices.

I'm surprised no one has a plug-in quick tester for a 50A/240V outlets like those that exist for 120V outlets. The testing is easy with a multimeter, but not everyone is comfortable using a multimeter.

[Gil_J]

The new feature introduced in TRC's portable unit seems interesting. Depending on how sensitive the detection and fault parameters are, it may not work in coaches with TRACE 4K inverters. One of the features of the Trace units is their ability to plus up the incoming voltage with inverter power. When this occurs, the amount of current carried on neutral will be different than what would be calculated solely based on the AC input at the shore connection. I'll drop them a note and see what they say. I'll also ask them if they intend on doing the same with their fixed mounted units.

An open neutral can be catastrophic. Even worse is an intermittent neutral that typically is worse when the load is the greatest. I chased one of these intermittent failing neutrals one time that was a real challenge. This added detection capability would seem a big plus.

[Gil_J]

BTW,

Here's a new product that would seem to be well worth the investment. Things I like:
-- Monitor your real-time power consumption.
-- Monitor your total power used (no one else does this).
-- Ability to use Bluetooth to monitor the device from inside your coach (no one else does this).

https://hughesautoformers.com/product/pwd50/

[Dtjoint]

While on the beach in Mexico for a month the park replaced the main transformer. After that we found the voltage going high, from about 128vac to above the 132vac shut off on our TRC portable unit. Using my very best Spanglish I told the park about the high voltage thinking that they simply had the output voltage set too high on the new transformer. They said the whole town was voltage high. No one (other than me) seemed to mind. Our TRC unit would periodically go off for a while and then a few hours later come back on. Inconvenient, but way better than than a damaged coach electrical system. I checked the voltage levels with a RMS meter and the TRC readings were quite accurate.

[dale farley]

I suppose the one positive aspect of this situation is that voltage that is a little high is not as bad as having low voltage. High voltage (within reason) is better than high amperage.

[KenEhresman]

Yes, best advice...My brother left and returned in our ol 89 marathon last year and plugged right up prompty smoking stuff as the line had shorted to neutral.... MANY hours later, troubleshooting with him ( not the electronic type) we finally traced the little "Doo hickey" aka Relay and replaced that, along with some wire, a Diode, and an expensive auto transfer switch. I sure hope he learned his lesson... I did :-) don't answer the phone at 10 at night lol.

[GoneCrazy]

BTW,

Here's a new product that would seem to be well worth the investment. Things I like:
-- Monitor your real-time power consumption.
-- Monitor your total power used (no one else does this).
-- Ability to use Bluetooth to monitor the device from inside your coach (no one else does this).

https://hughesautoformers.com/product/pwd50/

I too am intrigued about this new model that Hughes has put out. I like the ability to view the info on the iphone. And since My 1 yr old progressive is giving a E10 code ( Send Back to Manfacturer ) I have decided to give it a try. The big brown truck should bring one Friday.

[Gil_J]

Let us know what you think. BTW, it's not a replacement for your progressive device.

[GoneCrazy]

Let us know what you think. BTW, it's not a replacement for your progressive device.

Gil,
Please elaborate ?

[Gil_J]

Rocky,

The Hughes device does not protect from voltage levels that are out if range, like the PI device does.

[GoneCrazy]

Rocky,

The Hughes device does not protect from voltage levels that are out if range, like the PI device does.
Gil,
Are You talking about low voltage ? With it being a surge protector it should stop any high power spikes right ?

[Gil_J]

Surge suppressors absorb high voltage low duration spikes. When they do, they generally destroy the MOVs, which are the energy absorbing components.

A surge protector can not guard against out of range voltages being passed through the device. In fact, surge protectors have no way of blocking power being passed through the device. They don't have a high current relay or contractor like devices that protect against high or low voltage.

[GoneCrazy]

Surge suppressors absorb high voltage low duration spikes. When they do, they generally destroy the MOVs, which are the energy absorbing components.

A surge protector can not guard against out of range voltages being passed through the device. In fact, surge protectors have no way of blocking power being passed through the device. They don't have a high current relay or contractor like devices that protect against high or low voltage.
Hummmm , So I take it that the progressive does guard against high or low voltages passing thru to the coach then. Is this correct ? And since We are on this subject. Have You looked into the Hughes Autoformers ? What are Your thoughts on them ?

[Gil_J]

Rocky,

Yes the higher end devices from both PI and TRC (both since acquired) have dedection circuits for high and low voltage. If either is triggered, power is remove from the coach until the voltage is back in range.

The autotransformer could be invaluable depending on how you use your coach. If you frequent older parks, state campgrounds, and fair grounds, low voltage is fairly common. The autotransformer will dynamically increase the voltage. Just don't use a power management device in from of the autotransformer. The Hughes autotransformer doesn't appear to lower incoming voltage, so it can't protect from high voltage. Keep in mind high voltage is very rare.

[Dtjoint]

Having just been through episodes of high RV park voltage I can offer a bit of info here. Most home appliances are designed to work within a narrow band of assumed voltage and frequency since domestic power in most areas of NA is very stable. Voltage is normally assumed to be between 110 and 120 vac and frequency very close to 60hz. When those appliances are operated when voltage or frequency are outside these narrow ranges the appliance (or some of its internal components) may become hotter than the designers expected which could lead to failure or overheating to the point of catching on fire.

it is not that all appliances will fail in all cases of low or high voltage or frequency, but some might. That is what the various power monitors or power management systems are supposed to do to protect the appliances inside our coaches.

The simplest have inexpensive components which permanently fail when exposed to very high voltage like you experience in a power surge (very high voltage for a short duration). These are the components in the kind of power strips called “surge protectors” you probably have all around in your house. Once they fail, shutting off power, you either have to throw away the “surge protector” or replace those failed components. These components designed to fail when exposed to a power surge can be engineered to can absorb different levels of power surges before failing. The more they can absorb, the more expensive the “surge protector”. That is why the surge protectors that go between the RV park power post and our coach are generally more expensive than the simple “surge protector” you buy at a hardware store.

Most of the power management devices that plug in between the RV power post and your coach will shut off power if the post voltage goes above or below a preset voltage level. Different manufacturers have different preset values, but most are in the range of 105 vac at the low side and 130 vac at the high side. Some will also shut off power if the post frequency differs from the expected 60hz by 3 to 5 hz high or low. They also have some level of surge protection built in.

Some power management units, like the Hughes Autoformer, also attempt to Boost voltage when the post power goes below a preset level to keep the voltage entering your coach above a critical threshold before shutting off the power all together. They can only do so much, so work over a relatively small range at the low voltage end. Most of them do not do anything to try to reduce volatage if the RV post power goes high.

Confused yet? Make it simple when you are deciding which device is right for you. The least expensive devices offer only surge protection. They offer a level of protection, but only against short duration very high power conditions like might be caused by things like lightning storms. The next more expensive devices offer both surge protection and will also shut off incoming power if the post power goes above or below preset levels. Some will warn if the polarity is wrong, or there is a ground or neutral fault. The more expensive units will do these things and will also try to boost voltage if RV post power goes low.

Think of it it like you do buying insurance. Read the product descriptions carefully and decide how much protection of which kinds you are willing to pay for. I decided on the $300 to $400 units that offer both high levels of surge protection, automatic shut off when post power goes high or low and which warn of mis-wired RV park post power. I found the voltage boost devices that are in the $500 and up range did not offer enough additional value to me to justify the additional cost. I would not be at all comfortable with the less expensive surge protection only devices.

[Dthomas9572]

Jerry,

What unit did you decide on?

Thanks

[Dtjoint]

I use the TRC, now Southwire, 50 amp external plug in unit. I found a stainless steel shackle pad lock with a shackle large enough to go around the power cord. I use that with a chain around the power post to discourage theft. Seems to work well on both 50 and 30 amp power poles. It samples the incoming power for about 2 minutes before closing the internal relay to allow power into the coach. Actively shuts the power off if the incoming power goes out of range or looses neutral.

[Dthomas9572]

All,

I am getting so confused. I have a 1998 Featherlight

1) On my coach I have a reverse polarity breaker with warning light that comes on if there is an issue with the pole box
2) I have a Surge Guard Model 44290 which shows if all is wired correctly and surge protection (green light shows if surge protection active)
3) On Gils recommendation I have ordered the Hughs Watchdog

My plans are to plug surge protector into 50 am plug at campground, plug the Hughs into the surge protector and then shore line into Hughs. Gil said in this thread the Hughes does not replace the. PI device. Do I need another PI device to make sure I am fully protected?

[Gil_J]

Jerry,

Only the Watchdog products checks the coaches neutral. All of them check the incoming neutral. I've never been a fan of the TRC products because of where I live and their limited warranty.


David, the Watchdog is a complete replacement for the other products.

Your coach's reverse polarity light is just an indicator light and offers no protection. FWIW, unless someone just worked on a 50A pedestal the likelihood of reverse polarity is just about zero. A 30A outlet would be much more likely to have reverse polarity.

[Gil_J]

This thread has some confusion! My fault. Earlier in the thread the discussion was on the Hughes Autoformer, not the Hughes Watchdog.

I'm using the Watchdog. I'll likely install it in the bay, which they make a model for hardwired installation.

[Dthomas9572]

Gil,

Awesome...your video said the surge protector is modular...do they come with a spare? Do you recommend having one in my spare kit to replace as needed?

Thanks for all you do to help guide us on this stuff!!!

[Gil_J]

The entire unit is covered under warranty for 2 years. After that, the surge suppressor module is $30. I would not keep one in my spares.

[Donnie Myers]

Gil, my favorite Miami customer brought this unit to me and asked that we install it in the bay so he didn't have to carry it as it is heavy. I have in the past voiced my dissatisfaction with Surge Guard surge protectors as I have tried them many times over the years and we actually installed them at the factory on Vogues. They were horrible so I have steered away. Well we installed this unit as he keeps the coach at the Miami Airport and their power is terrible along with the folks that work on it as they think the coach can be wired like a 3 wire 240 dryer! The customer has had continuous issues for years. He said he has used this unit for a year and has not had issues with over current or tripped breakers on inverters. This is a 2006 F'lite triple slide. The Surge Guard is designed to plug into the pedestal and the coach plug into it. We bolted it to the wall, removed the shore cord from the 3 pole 50a breaker on the coach and routed to bay beside plumbing bay. The cable was long enough to go into a box where we installed a female 50a receptacle. We made a pigtail with a male 50a plug that plugged into the SG female plug and wired to 3 pole breaker on coach. It seems to work well and can be bypassed easily if it fails. I wll keep this updated.

[Gil_J]

Donnie, that appears to be functionally the same as this unit (CLICK HERE (https://hughesautoformers.com/product/50-amp-12000-watt-booster-and-surge/)). These autoformers make a lot of sense, especially at older parks or typical summer demands on a lot of parks.

[Fratto]

I have one of the hardwired Progressive units and it performed great so I removed from our last RV before we sold it. I have not installed it in the 1999 CC yet but it is on the "soon list".

I am curious how many of you are installing them on the incoming AC line and how many are putting on the output of the ATS so that it monitors both the park power and generator power.

[Gil_J]

I've done both. In hindsight and going forward I would only use the Progressive box or similar on the shore connection. The main reason being the control circuit in the transfer switch would otherwise be left unprotected. Keep in mind most Prevost conversions could not install the device after the transfer switch, if they even have a transfer switch, with the same level of effectiveness. Most conversions were using the dual AC input Trace 4024 inverters that were not fed from a transfer switch.

Although I haven't done so yet, I plan on a single contactor triggered by the generator being in an acceptable voltage range. Most generator issues are going to be voltage related.

[Fratto]

Thanks Gil. I installed on the shore power side in the last coach for similar reasons. Your thought about the ATS control circuit seals the deal.