What Tires???????

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have always used Michelin, and just replaced my steers. When I return from TX I am replacing my drives because they have aged out.

The question is are the Michelins which are now quoted at $614 (unmounted) twice as good as five rib DICO at $295? It is improbable I will wear either of them out, and since the drive axle is the easiest on tires I'm trying to find the downside to saving $1200.

Don't be shy. Tell me of your experience or facts. Except for making me feel warm and toasty I cannot think of another reason to justify the Michelins.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon years back I quit putting Mich. and Bridge. on the steers primarily because I got aggrivated having to remount them 2 or 3 times, every time, because of a smimmy that didn't previously exzist.

The off brands last just as long for a fraction of the cost and almost never have balance trouble.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon, Never heard of dico? My tire guy says the local charter co's. are using Kumho 315-80 $365 installed. He'll get um next day.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The tire guy gave me more info. They are Dynatrak tires, made in China under the name Double Coin.

I'm going to chase down Kumbo. Any other ideas?

[truk4u]

Yep, stick with Mich;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hey Truk, I'm trying to save a little money here.

Actually a lot of money. At one time the savings in cost between brand M, and the cheap one was the price of the tire. I bought brand M many moons ago for about $300 a tire. The were 12R22.5 but now the price of Michelin far exceeds anything else.

[Petervs]

Jon,
I would rather drive on 10 year old Michelin tires than new Chinese copy junk cheapo tires.

I am surprised you have bought into this crazy business of replacing perfectly good tires after x number of years in the first place. I have never seen any technical evidence to support the need. It is a great marketing ploy on the part of manufacturers though because they get to sell more tires, and it does tend to reduce their liability exposure I suppose. I contend that if you buy the right tire for the load, keep them properly inflated, and do not park them in direct sun all the time, then the life is not limited to 5 or 7 years, or even 10.


Sure, there have been plenty of plastic coaches with wheels and tires underrated and overloaded that have had failures. But caused by age alone? Does it depend on where the tires are used and stored maybe a little? Do they live longer in a garage in Idaho say than parked outside in Yuma?

Do you replace your airplane tires based on age?

If you are really concerned, just replace the steering tires, a failure in any other position would be merely an inconvenience at worst. Save the money to buy more diesel.

My $0.02

Peter vS
94 Marathon XLV

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, www.ohtsu.com ("www.ohtsu.com") Japanese in this country since 1970,s

JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter,

I have always garaged my coach so when I replace the tires I know they have had very little exposure to sun. I do not know prior history.

I posted the Michelin position on this issue about age, and to your point, I also have never seen any data to prove or disprove their recommendations. A while back I did some reading on the internet (which according to JPJ is not real) and without being capable of separating fact from fiction I was to understand truck tires are formulated for a relatively short life, but high miles and several retreads. There are other properties the manufacturers look for when formulating the compounds. I believe in fact the compounds as manufactured for truck tires retain their resistance to failure by the constant flexing of driving which releases chemicals that keep them pliable. Not driving on them often is worse for them according to my understanding.

Aircraft tires use formulations for their specific purposes. Since most aircraft do not spend their life hangared, the formulations are for long life, but they do not necessarily have the wear characteristics a truck tire does. That makes sense because I think the last time I checked I was getting about 600 or so landings on a set of 8 and 10 ply tires. That is perhaps 1000 miles. When the Michelin aircraft tires were first introduced they were made with completely unadorned sidewalls and they bragged it was because anything that breaks the surface such as lettering or a sidewall decoration is a potential place for cracking.

I don't care that the tires are made offshore. Michelins are made in various locations so we aren't pumping up the local economy. I do want the tires to roll five years with no failures and at that point I am happy. We have a number of POG members running other than Michelin and I would like to know their experiences. Most bus companies run other than Michelin and I'll be the drivers do not care as much about their tires as I do.

My steers will always be Michelin, but the drives are the safest place for tires of lesser quality. I would have to have two blowouts on the four drive tires to equal my cost of going with Michelin and I would need three blowouts before I was losing money.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

WOW, I was surprised to see so much talk about bus tires from you guys?

I thought EVERYONE used Michelins? :confused: Guess not. :rolleyes:

I think everyone agrees, that if you can do something safely, and have no adverse affect on driving, steering, mileage/gallon, then SAVING MONEY is always a good thing.

But I guess I would still be affaid to put No Name tires on a $300K bus. Am I wrong?

Gary S

[Jon Wehrenberg]

They may be no name to us, but can 20 billion Chinese be wrong?:D

There was a time when we may have been concerned about things made offshore, but there is a certain reality most in this country are afraid to face. A lot of products and product content is made offshore, and those goods are usually made to the standards our domestic goods must comply with. Tires must be DOT approved, especially for commercial applications.

The castings for your Series 60 engine block are (were) not made here. It is likely most of the electrical components in the bus were made offshore. Not a lot of the typical car we drive is made here and the tires that carry familiar names are no longer exclusively made in the US.

[gmcbuffalo]

At the recommendation of Dave Gregory of Southern Oregon Diesel I didn't replace my steers with Michlens. Dave said that Michlens were prone to early sidewall deteriation, which was evident on my tires. I went with Toyo's somewhere in the $350 a tire range from Les Schwab Tires.

Greg

[nrhareiner]

Hello Jon,

Your bus was kept inside since new, if not traveling. I have used the M brand tire. However, when I owned the plastic coach had goodyear 670 with good result. I do not know if they are made in the correct size for our bus.

Kim
02 Vantare S@
06 dodge megacab

[Joe Cannarozzi]

You know what they say about opinions, heres mine anyway

Petervs although I agree with your thoughts about age limits I also believe Jons comments about compounds to be true as well.

Being a trucker and always going thru tires before the age issue it wasn't until I joined POG that I even learned how to read the date codes. Furthermore it wasn't until this Jan. that I discovered our tires all to be 1999 and 2000. Concidering the front 6 are a matched set and still 80% tread I'll be pulling the steers and putting them on the tag. I intend to run them until I see the sidewalls begin to show those small cracks or the tread is depleated, regardless of age.
The way I see it they are Michelins, right, outta be able to get something for all that extra cost. I've got tire pressure sensors and I dont run hard. I'll keep everyone posted.

As for your thoughts about off-brand tires I could not disagree with you more.
Local charter companys have been running them for years with NO adverse results. I myself have also experienced great results from the lesser brands of tires. If you don't care for the Chineese try Kellys they are also a fraction of the price. As a matter of fact Bridg. and Mich. are harder to ballance and wear no better

In a situation like Jon where he IS going to follow the age guidlines and in addition run them on the drives only carrying only around 5000lbs per tire and watch pressures like a hawk (i'm sure), and never brake 65 or 70 that is gonna be money well saved.

The new tires I will be putting on the steers will be off brand. I don't know what they will be yet. They will be 12-22.5 and I will buy according to price and/or availability. When I get around to that I will let the folks know the way I went with them as well.

More than happy to be the guinne pig on this one. Not worried in the least. Greg has Toyos he'll be our test for those.
All these tires are drasticly underrated in the first place. I used to pull a transfer trailer (garbage) with 60000 on the trailer,(thats 2 axles) and do it regurlarly with mismatched and old skins. The guy we worked for would run out front in his SUV and birddog, lookin for troopers. But I digress:eek:

Mich. and Bridge. are NO DOUBT great tires, the off brands are just as good.

[dale farley]

I checked with a friend of mine who sells all kinds of tires including Michelin, and he recommended using Toyo on large trucks and motor homes.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kim,

Thanks. Good to know.

Joe,

Don't paint Michelin unfairly. They may not balance real well with weights, but when I started with Equal I never had a problem of any sort.

Greg and RR,

I'm going to check out the Toyo. I have seen other Prevost coaches with them.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Over the years I have used many brands of tires with varying degrees of success. I was never worried about the safety issue as I thought tires had to meet certain government standards. My satisfaction was related mostly to wear, noise and ride. I now prety much stay with the M brand because I perceive them to be better in each category.
I replace worn tires in less than 5 years.

JIM:rolleyes:

[Kevin Erion]

Jon, I put GoodYears all the way around and ran 25K last year and they still look like new. I think you will be OK no matter what brand as long as you do the normal inspections.
Kevin

[mikedee]

I am a big believer in the Michelins, soft ride, great drive, and never had a problem with any tire they ever sold me. I just put 8 on my new bus and $5,000.00 later it drives perfect. XZA2 Energy gets my vote. I put them on my plastic coach and was very happy with the tires.

Mike

[Jerry Winchester]

Not that it will make any difference............

Two boys I graduated with started to work for the Uniroyal tire plant in Ardmore, Oklahoma. Now some 25 years later they still work there but now Michelin owns the plant.

I told them for years that the Michelin tires we used on our oilfield trucks wore better than the Uniroyal tires they made. They said I was nuts. There wasn't a lick of difference between the tires and they built them everyday.

So after about a year of them working for Michelin, I asked about the quality of the tires they now built. Their response? Big difference.

They said the first thing Michelin did was replace a bunch of their tire making machines with ones special built only for Michelin. They said the tolerence and quality of the tires made on these machines were far better than the tires made (off brand) on their other machines. They also said the tires they build for OEM folks were better than the tires you could by at the local Michelin store.

Now having said that, our coach has Goodyear tires and they are all in great shape, so I doubt they will be consigned to the grinder just yet.

However, here is another counter-intuitive issue that you can take someone other than me to task on. From the NTSB (and I will dig out the report if someone just has to see it), running your best tires in the front had no impact of safety. Just as many or more accidents resulted from rear tire blowouts as from front tire blowouts.

See, it's just as if IMRE never left.............:D

[Larry W]

My two cents. I put new M brand steer tire on. Had them spin balanced and they drive great. As for the rear drives I will still use M. Have you ever seen the damage done when a heavy loaded tire the size we have blows out.
Our coaches may be all steel but I don't want to test how strong it is.
Larry W
00 Royale Coach

[garyde]

Jon. I have had blow outs on front and back tires which were 5 years old so no matter what anyone says, I'd rather be safe than sorry. My Liberty has 365/22.5 on the front and its a s m o o t h ride. My Lexa Country Coach had Toyo tires and they were great as well.
Incidently, when I replaced the rest of my tires after the 2nd blow out on my 1st Coach, it was discovered all the sidewalls were cracking on the inside of the tires (facing in)which I could not see. So much for the Sun Theory. Gary

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

See, it's just as if IMRE never left.............:D

Jerry, You sure astute! When and why did Imre leave?? I see his name is not in the members list.
Maybe he went to LURKER status?

:rolleyes: :eek: JIM

[Just Plain Jeff]

Well, this is a mixture of folklore, other opinions very little fact and my own ideas about tires.

This is not a new topic of conversation, one of which was on prevost-stuff in the fall of 2003: http://www.prevost-stuff.com/cgi-bin/_ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000070#000005 ("http://www.prevost-stuff.com/cgi-bin/_ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000070#000005")

My over-riding thought about tires on a camper is that you have 25 tons of machine (not to forget it is carrying your family, not oranges) hurdling down the public highway at perhaps 60+ mph, with 8 square feet of contact with the pavement. My conservative bent is that I want to have the very best in tires for that valuable cargo, and cost isn't the primary consideration in safety.

Tires are not a commodity item, some are better than others (opinion). We'd had Goodyears on our first coach which were speed and load rated, replaced with Michelin and it was a completely different riding and handling coach after the Michelins.

Dry rot begins on the inside of the tire and works its way to the outside. A visual inspection of the outside of the tire is useless, as it may be too late by the time you see cracks.

In the Spring, driving north on I-95, it is typical to see many RVs and trailers off the side of the road in Southern Georgia with blowouts. That's about the point where tires start to heat up and fail. Seems as if those folks figured on just one more trip with the ol' tires.

Had a long conversation with Prevost Car about tires. It is their opinion that since the Prevost (made outside this country) was designed, tested and equipped OEM with Michelin, they recommend only Michelin tires for Prevost buses.

During the Liberty PDI, any tire that is equal to or >5 years of age or with excessive tread wear is automatically replaced.

In lurking around some charter operators, I have seen various brands; notably the Sumitomo for seated coaches. Many operators are replacing tires on lease once a year due to mileage and liability concerns instead of the issues being discussed here.

Entertainer coaches routinely change out their tires at about 100K miles, as that usually comes out to about once a year, due to the failure is not an option if you gotta-be-where-you-said-you'd-be. Guess rock stars don't like to be delayed or inconvienced.

Here's a fragment of memory: When the IFS was introduced on the H3, I guess around 2001 or so, there were problems with tire wear and Prevost redid a lot of front ends, requiring a parts upgrade, welding and so on. The protocol also called for replacing the front tires to customers at no charge. The tires appeared unevenly worn, but were considered to be useable.

I bought some for $50 each and replaced the Goodyears on the old coach.

So, take any/all of this with whatever grain of sand you wish. The greatest lesson learned was making sure to look around the back of service facilities. You never know what you just may find.

[MangoMike]

Jon,

As you noticed at POG III my passenger Tag was showing some cupping. To get ready for the summer season I'm thinking of replacing that tire.

Are you still happy with the AH-SO imports. If you don't mind sharing, what price did you pay? And can I get away with having different brands on the tags.

Thanks

Mike

[dalej]

Mike, I put a chineese tire on a tag and it looks enough different that not sure having a mismatch is worth the big difference. I paid 275 for a r12, so a 315 will cost more.

It's getting tough to make good decisions when there is such a price difference.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike,

I cannot say for sure that a Chinese tire is as good as a Michelin, yet.

So I had two new Michelins put on my steers, I moved my 2 year old Michelins from the steer axle to the tag and then put the Chinese on the drive.

I would put new Michelins on the steers on your coach and move the steers to the tag. I say that assuming the current steers have no unusual wear. If they have any wear pattern, such as cupping, then I would put them on the drive. If the tires haven't aged out and there is still decent tread, put the ones with the cupping on the drive and they will straighten out.

I recognize I am suggesting the most expensive method if you do have to replace the tags, but until the comfort level on Chinese tires is equal to Michelin I am suggesting what I consider the safest choice.

Unfortunately tires are influenced by oil prices, so our prices may not be today's prices. For reference we paid about $612 for the Michelins and about $325 for the shanghai specials (Double Coin). That is for the 315 size.

FWIW, I use Equal, and check tire pressures faithfully. If you do that you should get between 130,000 and 150,000 out of your tires if they have not aged out first.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Jon says: "..I..check tire pressures faithfully..."

Is it true that you check them every four hours and keep a chart near the pit so that you can develop a stochastic statistical analysis (also recording ambient temperature, relative humidity and barometric pressure?).

If you do, then you could have a pretty good handle on whether or not your take-out tires are holding air at the same rate as the ones you are supposed to have on your camper?

Just asking.

BTW: Still have all my fingers. It's the marbles I am losing.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

JPJ may be just busting my chops, but over far too many years of checking tire pressures I have developed some ideas of where my pressure losses come from.

The two most likely and common places my tires lose pressure is the valve core, and the place where the valve stem goes through the rim. To address the first I have always used good caps, and now I have the spring loaded caps that do not require removal to check or air up a tire. They seem to work much better than conventional caps as a second seal.

As far as the valve stem seal at the rim, there is no easy fix. If I notice a tire always needs a few more PSI, I soap around the seal to confirm that is the leak, and then I have to deflate the tire and either tighten it up, or replace the rubber seal completely. The good news is I don't have to remove the tire from the wheel as long as I can push the tire down (I use a hydraulic jack under my truck bumper to hold it) and get at the valve stem from the rear.

I always use the same gauge so I am not dealing with pressure variations from gauge to gauge. I also always fill my tires to the exact pressure each time so if one of my tires always needs more air than the others I know I have to find the reason for the leak. That helped me find a nail that had gone through the inner sidewall once and that I did not find by looking around the tread of the tire.

The Chinese tires hold air as well as the Michelins. They may turn out to hold air better because my Michelins will literally push away from the rim easily when deflated, and the Chinese tires need a fairly good push in order to break the bead. Time will tell.

Outside air temperatures have a huge impact on pressure, as does the sun. If you go from the frigid north to the warm south your tire pressures will be higher than they were, and the reverse is also true. The difference I have seen is as much as 7 PSI. It is useless to check tire pressures right after you have been driving, except to measure differences in pressures on the same axle. The values for a hot tire are going to be different by a lot. Similarly, if you check tire pressures after the sun has been shining on them for a while, those pressures are going to read high. So set your alarm and get up before the sun rises to check tire pressures.

Checking tire pressures is a royal pain in the butt, and nothing makes me madder than having to deal with a leaky valve core that was perfectly fine up until I messed it up by checking pressure. The alternative to checking pressures is poor tire wear (if you are lucky) or worse, a blowout. On our coaches if a tire blows out and starts to disassemble itself there is ahigh probability that besides the cost of the new tire and a service call you will be spending some serious Lewbucks if it tears up things like your airbags, brake lines or all of the other things that can be damaged by a heavy piece of rubber slamming around at 60 miles and hour in your wheel well.

[jelmore]

I am a big believer in the Michelins, soft ride, great drive, and never had a problem with any tire they ever sold me. I just put 8 on my new bus and $5,000.00 later it drives perfect. XZA2 Energy gets my vote. I put them on my plastic coach and was very happy with the tires.

Mike

We're at Prevost in Ft. Worth, and find that our new-to-us 2000 Liberty has original tires. Their tire guy is talking $725 (includes federal tax) plus mount, balance and sales tax for 315/80 22.5 Michelins.

How did you do 8 for $5000? Or rather where?

[MangoMike]

Jim,

I have Toyo's on my 2000 H3 and am very happy with ride. Probably worth getting a price on them.

Just make sure you add Equal.

Mike

[matsprt]

I should probably stay out of this but can't resist. I currently have about 1500 tires on the road. I just bought another 88 to re-tire 11 trailers. I bought cheap chinese take out brand. I have been running them for over a year on our equipment and have seen no real difference in them over other name brands.

However as has been noted in trucking we burn the rubber off long before we die of old age. My CC has Toyo's and I would replace with Toyo's all things being equal. I am not a doughboy fan. In the name brands I have run them all and would prefer Bridgestone, Toyo's, Yokomama's and then ???. I have found none to shine significantly over the others in the long run. I think Jon's practice of checking tire pressure and visual inspections will catch most issues before they cost you big time. On duals I like running the crossfire system. The BIGGEST killer of duals is mismatched pressure which equals heat which equals catastrophic failure, poor wear patterns, poor fuel mileage, etc.

Good luck on whatever you do. And keep checking them. I think that is issue #1.

Michael

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My one bus does not qualify as an acceptable test, but the Chinese tires have a nice ride. I should point out that as tires age the ride suffers, so I was not surprised when I pulled the Michelins off and found the ride improved with the new tires. I would have the same improvement no matter what new tires I used.

[Fatsorider]

Hi Jon. I have been reading you articles a lot on the POG. It's (all ) very informative. Thank you.
i have been admiring Prevost coaches for 40 years. Never owned one in fact I've never owned any MH and only been camping 2 times on the peace river in central Florida. Having said that I just joined POG 20 minutes ago and am getting a (new to me) 1992 Prevost American Coach inc, (now defunct company) inspected so I can pull the trigger. I have driven a Previst my friend owns and man am I excited to pick mine up 3000 miles away. I have emerged myself in your articles about inspection, care, maintenance ect. and other info on the subject of ownership. I probably can't afford what I'm about to purchase but I got to do it now cause I'm not getting any younger and life is (1) and short. When I pick up the coach I'm headed directly to a tire shop to get 8 new ones as the ones on the coach are 10-possibly 12 years old although the have no cracking, spider or dry rot. I respect your advise and would like some direction on this issue.
Where in Washington state (Seattle area) do you know of. I think there is a Phelps tire outfit out there, I also read on FMCA members get a good deal with Michelin. Bottom line is, I can't drive further than Seattle without getting a set and I don't want to be hosed in a far way place with limited choices.
Thanks again for your past info. Hope to meet you someplace.

Juan. Fatchino226@gmail.com

[Gil_J]

Some aren't fans of orphaned coaches. Don't fear the orphans. In many cases, maybe even all cases, there are numerous individuals and companies that provide as much support as converters that are still in business.

The bigger concern is component, system, and subsystem obsolescence. The other concern is how open the converter was or is with sharing information, like wiring diagrams.

Be aware that some recommend service and component changes at unrealistically aggressive intervals, like tires and batteries at 5 year intervals. If money is no object, spend away. Personally, I leverage manufactures' schedules and limit aggressive schedules to safety items.

[dale farley]

Juan,

As Gil said, there are many good Prevosts built by now defunct companies. That is normally not a problem since most every system can be worked on by any good Prevost shop, and in most cases, by any individual owner that chooses to do his own work.

FMCA is definitely the way to go for new Michelins.

[Bill Dator]

Would somebody be so kind as to advise me how to check the date codes on Michelin?

[dale farley]

Bill,

I am pretty sure the date is on the inside of the tire. It will show the year and the week of manufacture. Something like "3515" for week 35. Sorry I am not at my bus or I would take a picture.

[Joe Camper]

Only 1 side of the tire small oval usually preceded by letters dot, with 4 digits branded in it . First 2 digits week of the year second 2 digits year

[Bill Dator]

Thanks, I will take a look

[dale farley]

Joe is correct. This is a picture of a Michelin that was produced the 50th week of 2008 (5008).

[Bill Dator]

Thanks Dale