Fuel Exhaustion

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This comes under the heading of things you might want to keep in the back of your mind.

I successfully ran my engine out of fuel even though I had about 85 gallons on board and the fuel filters were not dirty or plugged. And they said it couldn't be done.

As some POG members are aware my driveway is a little steep. I back up it to put the bus in the garage. Until the bus is actually in the garage it is pointing downhill. What happened is our garage door failed when we left for the TGO and Liberty rallies. When we got back I would have to get it working and until then the bus had to sit out. If it had been working, Di would have it open for me so I just had to back up the driveway and get about 2/3 of the coach inside before I lowered the front so the satellite wouldn't hit the top of the opening. I have to back up with the front at its full height (the rear is at the ride height) so the generator radiator baffle does not drag on the crown where the driveway goes from its uphill slope to the level at the garage floor.

Since I wanted to stop as close to the garage door as possible so I could get power to the bus I went up slower than normal. That provided all the time necessary for the fuel in the main tank to flow forward to the aux tank, out of reach of the pickup tube. As I got to the door the engine began its death rattle and I knew I had run it out of fuel. So here is a bus on a 15 degree night without a Webasto or generator. I managed to get at least 30 amp power and it made it through the night with no freezing, but when the door got opened I had to prime it to get it to run.

I added about 35 gallons from my stash of diesel fuel for my other toys, and that appeared to be sufficient to cover the fuel pickup in the tank. To test my theory I fired up the Webasto and ran it until the engine was heated. I filled the Racor fuel filter housing before priming. To prime it I used a portable weed sprayer with a hose that I could force over the priming port on the secondary fuel filter. I pressurized the sprayer and it pushed about a gallon of fuel into the port and through the bus system. After a few stumbles the engine fired up and ran.

For those who have not ever had to prime your engine (plugged fuel filters will do the same thing as running out of fuel) there is a port on the LH side of the secondary filter on the 8V92 that requires an allen wrench to remove, or a port on the RH side of the secondary filter on the Series 60 that has a cap nut on it. Both ports allow you to push diesel fuel under pressure through them (25 PSI is recommended, but I just pumped it up enough to make it flow) and you are good to go.

If you have a priming pump on your bus you do not need to use the ports listed above, but if not you might want to locate them, and for that rare moment that you might need them, see what it will take to make the connection to the fuel supply for priming.

I posted this because at some rallies I have heard owners bragging about how low they have allowed their fuel to get. When you run it out of fuel, or ignore the warning signs of a plugged filter no amount of cranking will get it started. If you are lucky you will not be in the middle of the street when the engine chooses to turn its last revolution. But regardless of where you are when it happens, at least you know that there is a way to get the engine running again. The priming process took me less than three minutes, but I already knew what I had to do, and I had the stuff to do it with.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

:D Jon, Surely you Jest. How could this happen to someone like you!
There is enough going on here without making up storys.

Did you block the wheels? (just wondering)

You are saying in effect that if you had had 60 more seconds of fuel you wouldn't have even known. I'll bet you wonder how close you were to this happening previously. (no thanks i'm not in the mood for a plane ride today)
Didn't you tell us somewhere that the tank should be kept full for storage.
When you live on the hill everyone knows what you are doing.
Does it make it better now that you have told your secret?
JIM

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jon, I don't know what you are currently doing for a career, but have you ever considered publishing a BOOK.

Bus Book for Beginners / Everyone :)

All the stuff you tell us about if you could put it in book, with reference pages and an easy index, Man I am talking about THE Book to have in your bus. Seriously I know that one of these days I am going to need something I have seen you post On LIne and I am not going to remember how to find it, BUT IF IT WERE IN A BOOK ! :cool:

I would pay extra for you to even autograph mine.

Gary S

[Stelan73]

In light of where this thread is going, I have a new guy question. I have asked several people if there is a place I can go and find a PM schedule for all the systems in the bus. The answer to date is, "go to your owners manual." But there is an owners manual for everything, ie engine, transmission, webasto, cruise aire, generator, and the list can go on and on. Does anyone know of a place where a daily, weekly, monthly or yearly type manual can be found (of course some systmes are based on miles and hours)? I asked Liberty and they didn't know of one. Hopefully this question is not too confusing. Thanks.

[BrianE]

Jon. As always thanks for sharing your adventure. Since bling is always a consideration, I tried to find a nifty 1 gallon stainless pump sprayer we can add to our "essentials". Could only come up with this: http://www.pestproducts.com/B&G.htm. It's a bit pricey but Mango needs to impress his Prouds buddies and the King of Bling....the list goes on. Incidentally, I would fly anywhere with you in the 210 and would put Beverly under your Captainship anytime. Now the guy with the forked tail doctor killer that plays with fire, that's another matter.

Stelan. The Prevost Maintenance Manual is not an intimidating document. It is well organized and gives a good explanation of how systems work along with the specifics of repair. Select the info on your specific model and download the whole manual (about 16MB). It gives periodic inspection criteria along with lots of other good stuff. It also helps you get to sleep if read late at night. http://technicalpublications.prevostparts.com/en/pub.aspFind :D

BrianE
94liberty XL

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Brian,

Come on east and we will both enjoy a flight in my blow up Cessna, or my little toy my friends call the kite.

I had considered at one time having something on board that could be used to prime the coach, but I ruled that out because of the space it would take up. If I were on the side of the road (unlikely, but let's pretend) I would use the tow car and head to the nearest Wal-Mart, K-mart, Lowes, or Home Depot where a cheap sprayer could be bought along with whatever hose or fitting I would need to get the job done. The more likely scenario would be a bunch of bad fuel, either from vandalism or just crud in the truck stop fuel tank. On the one occasion when we were in northern Nevada and I felt a shudder to indicate the fuel filter(s) were plugging with crud, I just went into the first truck stop and parked next to the fuel island and changed the fuel filters, priming them from the pump. You do not have to prime the bus if it is still getting fuel and if you have filled fuel filters.

BTW, I wish I could take credit for the sprayer as a means of doing this, but when I was hanging around the DD dealer they were priming a newly installed engine using an undercounter Pepsi pressure tank that had about 3 gallons of fuel that they pressurized with shop air. Same concept.

For guys that are so inclined it seems to me a beer keg could serve the same purpose.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Steve,

We have covered this topic previously, but knowing this group the list is likely under a thread relating to CK or someone's lack of phone service in regions north of the Artic Circle.

The list must be a personal one.I say that because the schedules I have seen and used do not reflect our type of usage. For example: our coaches sit a lot, then are run for a few days or less and then sit a lot more. That is not the kind of service the coaches or their components were designed to see. As a result I ignore the DD oil change intervals and use 5000 miles as my interval. During that service I also change all filters and lube the coach.

Another example is brake chambers. I believe Prevost and Bendix call for 1 year or 100,000 miles, which ever comes first. In that regard my personal schedule for replacing them is 5 years.

I believe there are other service items that we need to follow the schedule for maintenance rigidly. Coolant changes and transmission oil and filter changes fall into that category.

When a lits of items to reflect your personal coach and its maintenace is developed, there will be items that have to be scheduled based solely on your type of use. For example, how often should you change Prevost OTR air filters, or the Cruise Air filters? If you live in the coach full time I have to expect frequent Cruise Air filter changes.

The list is never ending with some items being as required based on inspection. I will never change a hub seal until it leaks, but I will inspect the area around the seals often. Why would you mess with the Norgrens or the ride height valves unless the coach was leaning or dropping?

Now that I have had the pleasure of repairing just about everyting known to man on my refrigerator to avoid the replacement and subsequent painting and paneling on a new one, I will be pulling the grille and cleaning the coils frequently.

Steve, are you really sure you want to know all this? Isn't it easier and cheaper to just head down to the Liberty store every year or so?

[Just Plain Jeff]

My heart aches to agree with Jon, now TWICE within days on specific topics (however not in general).

I am at Stuart and just checked with David Wall, GM of Liberty Coach. What he says is that owners are best served by bringing in their coach once a year for a checkup and maintenance. Pressures are checked, voltages, systems operations and the like. In that way, you can stay ahead of unexpected problems and also get the service you need. The idea here is to stay ahead of failures and problems and not wait until they occur.

This may not be the answer some would want to hear, but not all of us are taking apart our campers on a regular basis and trust that the guys who built them may know at least a bit more than we do about them.

So there you go.

P.S. In reviewing some of the various manuals in the coach, you will find that that many of the components have various dates of PM, and are installed at various times in the conversion process. Once you get a baseline, such as a PDI and annual inspections, then you are in good shape to know when the right hands touched the right places.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Steve,

Just to clarify my earlier remarks, I suggest strongly you develop the maintenance schedule for your coach yourself. It will become a lengthy detailed list of things that have to be done, and you can determine when you want them done.

Then when you go to Liberty, or Prevost, or your own garage with a pit and all the tools you need you can direct the maintenance rather than being led around by the wallet. Knowledge is your best asset when it comes to maintaining the coach, not necessarily knowing how things are put together or what size wrench you need, but in knowing what a task entails, and generally how much materials or labor hours will be involved.

If you come to POG III this could be a great BS session topic that could lead to the development of a POG standard for maintenance that can be personalized by all who choose to use it.

[win42]

Gary S. Early on I realized the value of Jons experiance ( probably the main reason I joined POG ) I went down to Staples and bought folders and index sheets and coppied each item of Jons and others and indexed them for future reference. Yes it would benefit to us all if Jon would prepare a book on Coach Repair and Maintenence, but it would not be fair to Jon to ask him to spend his time doing it. Make a habit of copying the good articles that appear here and organize them yourself. Thanks for sharing, all of you.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry,

Your thoughts are timely, but as I expressed to Gary in a PM, a book would be a massive undertaking. It would have to include the XL, XLII, the H3, all the converters, and all of the variations within the specific models. I am still trying to amass all the information I can gather for my coach. What I do think everybody could benefit from however is an outline of what maintenance is required that could be customized for all variations of coaches and converters.

[merle&louise]

GaryS and Harry,

To copy text from a POG post, first open a new file in Word and minimize it. Then highlight the text in the POG post that you want to copy, right click on the the highlighted text, select COPY, then go to the word file, put the cursor on the place that you want the text to appear in the Word file, right click, and click PASTE. The text will be copied into the word file. I have done this many times to keep info for future reference. :cool:

[truk4u]

Jon,

Interesting differences in the same year chassis. I don't have a secondary filter, just the Racor.

[MangoMike]

Jon,

For us mentally impared, how about a photo of the the port on the secondary filter for the Series 60.

I'll just use one of my pepsi tanks from the restaurant, but I'll be sure to wash it out before it goes back into service at Mango's.

Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike, Will do. What I would like is to send them to you so you can add your arrow. I will also try to find a shot of an 8V92 so that can get a Mango arrow.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If this works I see a future for myself in computing.

This picture is of the 8V92 secondary filter, and the arrow which I drew all by myself shows the location of a plug that requires an allen wrench for removal. That is the place to prime an 8V92 that has suffered fuel exhaustion.

As soon as I can get under the bus I will post the priming point for the series 60.

[MangoMike]

Jon,

Nice job on the arrow.

Although you are working me out of a job. ';)

Mike

[Joe Cannarozzi]

How come the belt tensioners weren't polished in that picture?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

Nobody likes a smart aleck. But since you asked....that is the as completed picture of the restored 87 coach as it looked when it was turned over to me by Prevost. When I got done I had polished the tensioners, restored the paint on the engine and pipes and got rid of the soot from the fire from all surfaces.

Now go back to your room.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The photo (that I marked up all by myself...awesome) shows the cap nut on the secondary filter housing. The filter on my coach is along side of the engine cradle side rails below the power steering reservoir out of sight. It may be located in different locations depending on the coach, unlike the 8V92that is always in the same place.

To prime, remove the cap and prime the engine through the open port.

Since this priming port is not easily accessible I am going to add a fuel line at this location and bring it up to an area near the batteries where I can access it through the side door. I will have this change on the coach at POG III.