Serious Plumbing Considerations

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lew made mention of a flush valve problem we had on the trip to FL, but once we get past the toilet jokes we get to the serious core of the issue.

The following applies to Head Hunter toilets and flush valves but may also apply to other products.

In the plumbing industry the cardinal sin is cross contamination. Every single plumbing code in the country has extensive regulations to prevent the possibility of waste water entering the fresh water supply system. Our coaches with the aforementioned toilet and flush valve would likely never be accepted by any of the building codes relating to plumbing. I am sorry for the length of this, but it is important for all coach owners to completely understand the following otherwise they might as well brush their teeth with water from the toilet, unless they already have.

The HeadHunter toilet operates by having a very high volume flow of water create a low pressure to evacuate the toilet bowl. A diaphragm valve is caused to open, the flow of water is actuated and in a short period of time the valve closes and the water stops flowing. The problem begins if the flush valve fails to turn off the water flow. The response is to turn off the pump or municipal water supply. Here is where every owner needs to look at his or her coach. If the water supply to the toilet can be isolated and shut off while maintaining pressure in all other water systems in the coach (such as the sinks and shower) there is a potential for cross contamination but it is slight.

If the only way to turn off the flow to the toilet is to shut down water flow to the entire coach you may have a serious problem. When the house water pressure drops to zero with a flush valve that will not shut off the flow to the toilet, the valve is open. With zero house water pressure and a ball type check valve in the water system it is probable the toilet contents will backflow, through the flush valve, and into the fresh water tank. It is less likely if the coach is equipped with a spring type check valve. All chack valves are more efficient if the water pressure on the downstream side is much higher than that on the upstream (pump) side.

If you store your coach with the pump turned off and the water pressure bled off the potential to create this contamination condition exists. The only sure way to prevent cross contamination is if there is an air gap between the water flow source and the soiled water, and with the toilet design that is not possible.

I never studied my system when it was working but when it failed to shut down on the trip to FL I studied it to determine how it worked and I now have a fresh water supply to sanitize. The toilet and valve are elegantly simple and as such should prove very reliable, and are very easy to service, but since the toilet will backflow into the fresh water tank under certain conditions it would be wise for everyone to at the very least understand their own coach system and determine if they can assure themselves of a means of prevention.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon I keep reading this over and over and either Im missing something or you have mistated something. If the toilet can be isolated that is good, right? Or are you suggesting that one way its a slight problem and the other way its a serious problem but either way is incorrect? Furthermore I'm pretty sure, you, would not have that problem of pressure bleading off and that further confuses me. Please clarify for dummy me.

By the way hate to have missed you that morn. a few days back. I'm guessen you overnighted at the 2mm at the Flying-J? We pulled in there for fuel right after we saw each other. I had just gotten done mentioning to Debbie to keep her eyes open for someone heading South and then there you were!

[garyde]

I believe what Jon is saying is that his toilet ,for the fresh water supply, has no check valve, so if the flush valve fails and you can not stop the water from flowing thru the toilet, you will have back flow from the toilet the minute you turn off the water pump or city water. The back flow from the toilet would drain back towrds your pump and fresh water tank.
This would be a worse case scenario depending upon how your cold water pipe is plumbed from the toilet back toward the pump and tank. If there were T's in the line, and or wheter the toilet cold water pipe was plumbed vertically up the back wall high enough to create an air space.
My question would be ' what was Liberty's opinion on this?' Gary

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is not a converter issue so I am not going to even try to opine what the position of Liberty or Vantare or any other converter using this type of system is. From many years of teaching seminars in the plumbing industry I have learned our coaches are huge compromises and among the compromises is a plumbing system that fails muster with respect to building codes but works. My concern is that all owners understand the risks.

We have never used water from our faucets for ingestion, and this only reinforces our decision that was made in 1990.

Gary's answer to Joe was right on target. I am going to add some valving to our coach to minimize our risk, and will provide detailed information. I do know some of the converters have installed spring type check valves which will help, especially those with Headhunter pumps.

I will tell you I am disappointed this issue has never been widely discussed by anybody, and it is my opinion the installation of spring type check valves was probably not done to prevent cross contamination, but because it was an engineering requirement to make the pumping part of the system function properly.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

It was suggested to me, I'm absolutly sure with good intent, in another post of another thread, that I might be trying to reinvent the wheel.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Karl M., How are these plumbing issues addressed in the boating world? It seems to me they would be quite similar. Wouldn't three separate pumps work here. Drinking, Grey,Black. JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, We waved and I grabbed the CB, but I now remember you don't use one.

The plumbing issue would benefit from fresh thinking. To be safe there needs to be an air gap between the waste and fresh water side. That way the waste water cannot flow back into the fresh water tank.

Jim, the problem is unrelated to pumps or the number of them. It is the principle of how the valve works. That particular valve in concert with the toilet piping sets up a high speed high volume momentary flow that evacuates the toilet bowl by creating a low pressure area in the bowl. As designed it would not work with any kind of air gap.

In your quest to find the perfect coach don't dwell on issues like this one because there are ways to minimize or eliminate any cross contamination as long as the system is well maintained.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Well all I can think to say now is. If I spend BEAUCOUP BUCKS on a camper and tell my wife she can't drink the water, what side of the moon do you think I will be calling in from? :eek: JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Even with cross connections you can drink the water. Just install all the necessary purification devices plus a UV light on a line, and you are good to go.

The key is to eliminate the potential for cross contamination. I know of at least four coaches on this forum right now that need to address this issue and it is likely there are more. (Mine is one of them.)

[rmboies]

Even with cross connections you can drink the water. Just install all the necessary purification devices plus a UV light on a line, and you are good to go.
)

Jon,
interesting thread and I am printing all your information out for Bob-00. When we purchased our first coach, I contacted a local environmental company to have them test the water in the drinking tank. It was good to go. However, the nurse in me still had a problem with water sitting in a tank, un-used, so we chose to drink bottled water and use the other water for showers etc. Having read your posts, I can see now that just having the tank tested once is no guarantee. Is it possible to design an air barrier/baffle to eliminate cross contamination?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Debi,

This is an issue that is not hard to visualize. If you have a HeadHunter type toilet with the associated flush valve picture in your mind a toilet bowl with water in it. The water in the bowl is in direct contact with the waste line going to the black water holding tank, and it is also in direct contact with the fresh water used for the flush cycle.

What separates that toilet bowl water from the fresh water holding tank is the flush valve that under almost all circumstances seals so tight, it shuts off fresh water that is under pressure from leaking past the valve. That seal also prevents any water in the toilet from backflowing into the holding tank.

It is only when the flush valve fails to seal, or shut off the flow, that problems occur. In any coach in which the flush valve has functioned properly it is unlikely the fresh water holding tank has been soiled. In fact, in some cases the converter has taken steps which prevent the contamination of the fresh water holding tank by installing a check valve between the pump and the flush valve, thus making contamination even more unlikely.

When we started "camping" in our first coach our concerns were like yours and we just decided to never ingest water from our holding tank, instead preferring to use bottled water. Even when I modify our plumbing system to almost completely eliminate cross contamination we are unlikely to change our practices.

In the context of the toilets and valves discussed above an air gap is not possible. It would require the valve to be mounted above the toilet, and to allow the water to flow into the toilet from above the water flood level. The way the toilet is designed it requires the high volume flow into the waste line below the bowl to create a very low pressure area to "vacuum" out the contents of the bowl. It is a very effective design, but like I said originally, it is a compromise.

[rmboies]

[QUOTE=Jon Wehrenberg;10135]Debi,

This is an issue that is not hard to visualize. If you have a HeadHunter type toilet with the associated flush valve picture in your mind a toilet bowl with water in it. /QUOTE]

Jon, thank you very much for the additional explanation. I understand perfectly now. Like you and Di, Bob and I will likely continue with our bottled water routine:D

[truk4u]

Now I know why I'm real happy to have an electric toilet!;)

[Jerry Winchester]

I never drink the water. Jim, I would spend beaucoup bucks + the cost of a case of Ozarka water and never look back.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Jon: As I recall, you had briefly mentioned something about the toilet issues at Titusville. Thanks for remembering to bring the matter up here for all to share.

You had also commented on the temperature rise whilst using the factory-supplied exhaust retarder. We both apparently have the same system, with the right steering column range adjuster.

Just for the heck of it, I took the bus out the other day and watched the temperature rise, and indeed it does. However, the rather fascinating thing is that as quickly as the engine oil temperature rises, it cools just as fast. Now that seems like a puzzlement. One would think that if oil temperature can rise that quickly, how in the world would it cool down equally as fast? Logic says that could be due to one of two things: Either the engine oil cooler design is an incredibly efficient and effective system, or that the apparent temperature rise is an artifact created by the use of the retarder, which clears as quickly as it appears?

Of course, this has nothing to do with toilet water, but it was part of the conversation we had at the same time, so, what the heck.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

JPJ,

It was posted somewhere else about how the retarder works. I learned the temperature sensor is located at the outlet of the transmission retarder. The reason the temperature changes are so dramatic is because the sensor is measuring the fluid temperature at the point the retarder affects the temperature, so if the retarder is functioning it translates that work into heat that is measured as the heated fluid leaves the retarder. As soon as the retarder is no longer in use (such as when you step on the gas or turn off the retarder) the fluid passing through the retarder and past the sensor has not absorbed any additional heat. It does not necessarily mean the transmission fluid intercooler is efficient.

[Just Plain Jeff]

OK, so if that is the case, what is happening here is that a 'sample' of the overall oil is rising in temperature during operation of the retarder and then when the retarder is 'disengaged,' the sample is released (dumb way of saying it, but you get it) back into the overall oil flow, so the apparent oil temperature decreases?

If that is the case, then it's no big deal? Oil certainly can be be as hot as 220F without destroying its lubricity.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You cannot make a statement like that to apply universally.

High temperature is the enemy of our fluids. If you never expose the fluid to a temperature of (insert your own value here) it is possible the life of the fluid will not be shortened. However, the use of a retarder on our coaches is construed by Allison as a reason to cut fluid change intervals in half.

Now that we have you able to slow the coach down and watch the gauges at the same time, here are two things you can do. First, turn on the retarder, put the lever in the second "on" position and note that it is unlikely that allowing the retarder to function will raise the temperatures beyond 210 to 230.

Then leave the retarder switch on, but move the lever to the off position. Then do an agressive stop using the coach brakes from about 65 MPH. You will note the temperature will rise very fast, and will exceed the 230 degree marking on the gauge. From that it can be seen that if the retarder is engaged where it is needed the most, such as when descending long steep mountain roads fluid temperatures will easily exceed anything you have ever seen. You may be able to peg the transmission temperature gauge.

The retarder system will function proportionately to the amount of braking force so with routine use of the retarder, even with the lever in the "0" position, but the switch on, tranmission fluids will be exposed to high temperatures.

I have found that anticipating a steep descent, slowing to a reasonable speed at the crest of the hill, and descending in a lower gear allows the retarder to function, keeps the temperatures to a reasonable level, and does not require the use of brakes. If the hills are excessivly steep, the use of brakes may be required, at which point you, the driver, need to determione if you wish to supplement the retarder with braking (and the higher fluid temperatures), or to temporarily turn off the retarder and apply heavy braking to slow down below the target speed, and then re-apply the retarder. Either way you are going to spend money. You will shorten the life of the transmission fluid or you will wear out and heat up your brakes.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Gotchya, but I do something a bit differently.

Let's take the Fancy Gap hill on I-77 just as an example. It is several miles of a descent, with I think about a 7% grade with some nifty twists and turns. What I do when approaching the grade is slow down. I mean, really slow down. If the other good folks along the roadway don't like it, they have 2 other lanes to do what they have to do.

I downshift to the point where the camper feels as controllable as possible. This is not freewheeling; but a controlled descent. If my target speed, for example, is say 40, and I am sorry I am watching the road here, not the gauges, and feel that the coach is picking up too much speed for the remainder of the trek toward gravity, I do use the brakes and bring the speed again way down to what feels like a mangeable point. Usually that is only required once.

Figure it this way; assume you are a blue-hair lady in a Focus who isn't sure which parking spot is closest to the IGA. Since you don't/shouldn't want to walk away from it all, maintain complete control.

Somewhere someone posted that if you go down the hill at the same speed you went up the hill, it would be about right. I go slower than that.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Either way you are going to spend money. You will shorten the life of the transmission fluid or you will wear out and heat up your brakes.

That guys is exactly what I have been saying :D Spend money on brakes and all that come with them, or spend money on twice the number of trans. fluid changes. I'll bet the brakes overhaul cost is more than transmission fluid and filter replacements ? :confused:

Thanks Jon, for clearing that up, even though the Thread Police should revoke your typing license, you too Jeff ? :eek:

[Petervs]

The general rule of going down a hill at the same speed as you went up is just that, a general rule. Not all hills have the same incline on both sides, nor as long a gradient. In the west, there are many passes on the interstates that start in the high desert at say 2500 feet above sea level and climb to 4500 feet at the pass and then descend down to say 800 feet on the coastal side. The climb may be 3 miles long and the descent could be 8 miles. Or the climb could be at a 6% grade and the descent longer at a steady 4%. Or vice versa if you are going the other way of course. So the guideline is just that, and must not always be adhered to.

And, if you are climbing a steep grade at 40 mph because that is all the horsepower you have then going down at 40 is not required or sensible in all cases. Descending at the posted speed limit of 55 or 60 or 65 may well be perfectly fine, depending on traffic and weather conditions.

Part of the POG Code of Ethics should be an admonition not to drive like a bunch of FuddyDuddys! For that I could join the PrevostProuds , FMCA, or whatever group Liberty promotes.

Peter vS
94 Marathon XLV

My GPS says it went 88 mph at one point down a long straight hill, not towing anything. How fast will it go on a flat straight road?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mr. Peter... I think the rule about speed is not to compare what it takes to climb one side of the mountain and descend another, but to adjust the speed going going down to be approximately that of going up the same side. The hill JPJ is talking about is about 8 miles long and has a much lower speed limit for trucks on the descent. Not even the truckers will complain about your speed if you are going slow because it is a nasty hill and it has numerous runaway ramps.

Mr. Gary...I wish we could actually measure the cost of our choices. According to Allison we should expect 800 thousand miles out of our transmissions, but even if we change the fluids as recommended, are we going to get that life? We can't compare costs of brakes or transmission fluids alone because of so many other factors. No matter what the choice it costs us money to go and money to stop.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Peter vS
94 Marathon XLV

My GPS says it went 88 mph at one point down a long straight hill, not towing anything. How fast will it go on a flat straight road?[/quote]


OK Peter, I'll be you Old Geezer straight man.
How fast will it go?

As an aside. Your post showed up on my screne as being entered at 11:57AM. If you recal what time did you enter it (your local time)? What time is shown on your computer as the time of entry. Is it the same time you recal for the actual entry?
JIM

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter,

I am shocked. Absolutely shocked. First you take a potshot at Liberty owners by lumping us in with Fuddy Duddys, and than you as a pilot IGNORE operating limitations.

My GPS says it went 88 mph at one point down a long straight hill, not towing anything. How fast will it go on a flat straight road?

Check the maximum speed for your tires. This ignores that at 88 you are violating all speed limits in this country. And you have the nerve to publicly proclaim you did so.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

We can't compare costs of brakes or transmission fluids alone because of so many other factors. No matter what the choice it costs us money to go and money to stop.

ROGER THAT! And hell, it even costs when we are not going or stopping.

$93 a night for Bluewater RV resort campground. :eek:

Tuga , Maybe, that's why Peg and I didn't look into staying there more? Be sure and send us pictures where the Big $$$$$ spenders stay!

[Petervs]

OK Jim,

FYI I posted that previous response at 8:57 am PST. That is what my clock said anyway, and that was the local time here in Washington state. It is now 11:45 am.

As for the question of how fast it goes, well it was just that, a question. I do not have the answer because I have never tried it. I was at Bonneville Salt Flats once, but the lake bed was not hard and dry so I was not tempted. But I bet someone here has tried it and I was just curious.

And Jon, sorry a broke a law. I was not purposely going real fast, it is just that on that particular day I was on an interstate where the speed limit was 75 and when going downhill my cruise control does not invoke the Jake Brake and so it just speeded up. Since the ride is so nice, and the wind noise is essentially nil, I did not notice right away. Excuuuuuse me! I bet I am not the only one who has ever broken a speed limit. And as for the tire rating, well, I am not too concerned about a momentary overspeed. I would not drive for hours on end at an overspeed.

Also, I did not lump Liberty Owners WITH Fuddy Duddys, they are each in their own seperate category in my mind anyway.

Peter VS

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OK, we are going to let it slide this time. I'm going to forgive you because you are a nice guy.

In the meantime I'll stick with my blazing 62 MPH, safely below my tire speed limits.

BTW, a little drift here, but since low sulfur has become the standard I think the increased consumption is much greater than the few tenths being discussed. Not that I am a cynic, but with lower BTU content the very government that shoves this crap down our throats stands to increase our taxes substantially because with the increased use of fuel they collect the tax on many more gallons and have not added a penny to their cost of collecting (stealing) our money. Keep the speed down and you deny the government weenies their unearned income.

[gmcbuffalo]

How did this speed thing get into the a plumbing topic??????????????
GregM

[Petervs]

My toilet flushes at 65 mph!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

OK Jim,

FYI I posted that previous response at 8:57 am PST. That is what my clock said anyway, and that was the local time here in Washington state. It is now 11:45 am.

As for the question of how fast it goes, well it was just that, a question. I do not have the answer because I have never tried it. I was at Bonneville Salt Flats once, but the lake bed was not hard and dry so I was not tempted. But I bet someone here has tried it and I was just curious.

And Jon, sorry a broke a law. I was not purposely going real fast, it is just that on that particular day I was on an interstate where the speed limit was 75 and when going downhill my cruise control does not invoke the Jake Brake and so it just speeded up. Since the ride is so nice, and the wind noise is essentially nil, I did not notice right away. Excuuuuuse me! I bet I am not the only one who has ever broken a speed limit. And as for the tire rating, well, I am not too concerned about a momentary overspeed. I would not drive for hours on end at an overspeed.

Also, I did not lump Liberty Owners WITH Fuddy Duddys, they are each in their own seperate category in my mind anyway.

Peter VS

That time thing I was just wondering if the whole system reflected EST or what? Now if I were loged on via. Verison card I suppose there would be a time correction when one made a shift between towers as I traveled towards you,or something like that. Can anyone enlighten me. If all the posts on my computer are time and date signed would they change to west coast time if my computer from Chardon were connected in Seattle for instance, or once the data is in the computer is that that even when it moves around from place to place??

Peter, The speed thing is crazy. Don't do things like that!!!!! Buy Lottery tickets if you think your feeling lucky. I won't say I have never done foolish things like that, but that is what they were FOOLISH! A catastrophic failure happens in a fraction of a second. Your tires are not rated for what you are attempting and your engine/transmission/bearings/belts and suspension are being stressed excessively. Even if they don't fail catastrophically their life is shortened and the reliability is deminished. Whitness Jeff B. and his bearing failure. So how were you taching out @ 88? What was the RPM. That is what you need to Know to figure the top speed. If you know the rear end gear ratio and the trans. 6th gear is 1:1 then measure the tire circumfrance and do the math. I don't think you will get to that speed but the next time you try you will know better how close you are to top speed when at 88 mph. If you don't know the gearing then work it out with RPM,s at a known speed.
Imagine your reaction to a bird through the windshield at 88, or a deer jumping out. If you want to go fast there are classes at race tracks where for a reasonable price and with quite a bit of safety you can speed to your hearts content! Shame on me for scolding I have no right to do that but I don't want to read about your tragedy in the news. This topic was thorougly discussed a few months ago and I did not participate in the discussion thats why I feel I can spreek up now. :eek: JIM

[Just Plain Jeff]

Check the maximum speed for your tires.

The rating tables for tires are not just 'limits.' They express the MTBF which is essential to the design and manufacture of the tire.

For example, if a tire is speed rated at a maxiumum of 65 mph, at about 72.5 mph it is being run at one Standard Deviation above the maxium rating. At 79.5, two Standard Deviations.

Ratings aren't just guidelines with tires, IMHO, they are predictive of what to expect going down the road. Not calculated into the tire manufacturer's guidelines is the application: Most Prevost coaches I know of have a 'time' delay in the suspension, which means that they will roll for a bit before the air suspension system corrects the roll and straightens out the coach.

So, at speeds higher than rated, what occurs is that one has a 20-25 ton chunk of technology basically out of control on a corner...and that doesn't include the additional dynamic of trying to stop or slow down.

Let the trucker yell at me. it wouldn't be the first time (BTW they don't have the 'time' delay system in their suspensions, so that's not an apt comparison).

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

The TIME issue you speak of is based on Your Computers Clock. Located in the right bottom corner of most comptuer screeens. If you don't adjust it whilst traveling across time zones, your computer will not know the difference between Pacific, Mountain, or Greenich MEAN time.

KNOW WHAT I MEAN ? !!!

Hu Oh, got to go, here come the Thread Police....

[Just Plain Jeff]

Oh-oh, I knew this was going to come up.

Well, here it goes: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Seduction-Human-Spirit/dp/0595411916/sr=1-2/qid=1170365062/ref=sr_1_2/105-9576366-4178005?ie=UTF8&s=books ("http://www.amazon.com/Time-Seduction-Human-Spirit/dp/0595411916/sr=1-2/qid=1170365062/ref=sr_1_2/105-9576366-4178005?ie=UTF8&s=books")

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

The TIME issue you speak of is based on Your Computers Clock. Located in the right bottom corner of most comptuer screeens. If you don't adjust it whilst traveling across time zones, your computer will not know the difference between Pacific, Mountain, or Greenich MEAN time.

KNOW WHAT I MEAN ? !!!

Hu Oh, got to go, here come the Thread Police....

Gary, Are you saying that the software for the forum calculates the times that we see with each posting by some formula relating to each individual computer's internal clock, wherever it is located? :cool: JIM

[MangoMike]

Here's some Fodder for future threads on JPJ.

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Seduction-Human-Spirit/dp/0595411916/sr=1-2/qid=1170365062/ref=sr_1_2/105-9576366-4178005?ie=UTF8&s=books

I'm impressed. And I thought Jeffrey was just another bus driver.

mm

[Ray Davis]

Guys! When you registered with the forum, you indicate which timezone your posts are coming from. This is changable in the User CP -> Edit Options part of the forum.

It does not use your current time. Although if your current time IS correct with the timezone you DID post, then these times will agree.

Everyone will see the post time in terms of the selected timezone in the forum preferences.

The server does know what time zone it is in (AND the current time), so that it can accurately display time of posts in your timezone.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The start of this thread was a warning about possible contamination of the fresh water tank with water from the toilet.

On my coach the problem has been resolved. In the photo you will see the braided line dedicated to the HeadHunter toilet now has a check valve to prevent backflow from the toilet to the fresh water tank, and a large ball valve that will allow me to turn off all flow of water to the toilet if the flush valve should fail to close.

If you have a HeadHunter toilet on your coach you should at least have the check valve for safety reasons. The check valve must use a spring to seat the valve against backflow.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The second part of my frustration with the failed flush valve was the lack of access. As originally installed the valve was sandwiched between the coach floor and the underside of a shelf supporting one of the center Cruise Air evaporators. To say that access was difficult would be an example of understatement.

This is where the valve was originally located, and in the following pictures is its new location with easy access and plenty of room to service it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The most critical lesson learned was the potential for cross contamination and the health hazards that could follow.

But on my coach I learned if the valve failed in the open position I could not turn the water flow to the valve off, but instead had to shut off water to the entire coach. That left us with a heated aluminum pup tent. I added a manual valve in line so I could shut off water to the toilet and still have all of the other fixtures functional. That was something I never considered until I had a problem. If you do not have a means to isolate the toilet water supply I urge you to add a valve.

I also learned the flush valve is a simple device, easy to service, but it must be accessible. On my coach it was sandwiched in a place that made it impossible to service. By relocating the flush valve I can now gain access and service the valve in minutes.

For those who do not know the location of the valve I would urge you take the time to find it, and to determine how and if you can remove the 6 screws necessary to service it. If you cannot get at it, or if you cannot see what you are doing when you do get at it you may have a problem.

The valve is almost as simple as an anvil. It is possible the diaphragm that shuts it off may eventually lose its ability to seat and thus will cause the toilet to trickle, the probable failure will be a failure to shut off due to some foreign material that has gotten in the very small weep hole in the diaphragm. To restore proper operation you only need to clean any debris from the hole. It may be helpful to stretch the center spring slightly before reassembly, but just keeping the hole clear is usually all that is necessary to restore proper operation.

A few comments are also in order. You can adjust the level of water in the bowl by accessing and opening or closing the valve usually located at the LH rear of the toilet (when sitting on it). The flush valve itself has a manual control on it if for some reason the push button on the toilet should fail. That control is a white knob located at the base of the solenoid. In normal mode the knob will be straight up and down, but if it is turned counter clockwise it will flush the toilet until restored to the vertical position.

This series of toilet posts will make it too easy for Buckeye Jerry (from OSU) to start back up with A-1 posts, or Mango to continue with Anaconda related posts.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon how are you planning to sanitize the fresh water tank? A certian dolution of bleach to water? If so how much, if not, what?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

About 2 quarts of chlorox jostled around with a ten minute trip for fuel on these E TN roads, dumping the tank and then a refill with a cup added that I will circulate through the fixtures.

I am a little careful about running too much chlorine based chemicals throught the plastic piping. About 10 years ago the type of piping used in our coaches was at the heart of a national class action lawsuit because it was failing due to high concentrations of chlorine in water supplies. I don't think my year of coach had piping made with the problem material, but I will not take a chance.

Whatever contamination my tank received it was slight.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Ok Jon, so I think I speak for everybody......:D

If you will bring 30 check valves, 120 hose clamps, you will be all set up for an afternoon or 3 of adjustments on everyones bus ? :rolleyes:

Did the addition of the In-Line Check valve have any negative effect on the flow pressure into the bowl? Just curious.

And Jon, I am not making light of the seriousness of this situation and potential problem everyone might have, I was just trying to set a mood for the weekend :o, and so now I will go fix me a Martini and be quite.:eek:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm sure there was some effect because the check valve is an in-line restriction, and I added about 3 feet of 1" hose to relocate the flush valve to the more accessible location. I have decided however I will not subject the revised system to the ultimate test by asking JDUB to do a field trial.

I did step up the pressure in the accumulator tank a little because it was down so it probably wasn't working as well as it should have prior to the changes so all I can say is it flushes.

Putting in the check valve and the ball valve was about a ten minute job. Relocating the flush valve was an all morning job because of where I had to reach to access the hose clamps on the braided tubing. I need a drink after that. Pour one for me.

[rfoster]

Jon: Good Job on the photos and plumbing job.

Only thing missing was the plumbers crack. Call JDUB and see if he will loan you one.

What is the diameter of the hose (ID). I need to pickup the check valve and cut off at my favorite large chain discount warehouse wholesaler with unskilled employees who are looking for payday and quitting time that sponsor race cars.

[lewpopp]

JDUB,

Did you catch the hint on how to tell your left from your right? Just sit on the catcher (not the pitcher) and all of the answers will come to you.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Roger that....1" braided hose and 1" pipe thread fittings.

All my supplies were at my local Lowe's.

Butt cracks were going on sale next week so I am delaying the purchase.

[truk4u]

Dear A1,

I am shocked! What, a flaw in the Liberty.:eek: No check valve, no shut off for the water and bad location for the valve. Marathon has a complete manifold system allowing you to shut off the water to each source from the plumbing bay.;) If you would like a picture of how a converter properly handles the water distribution, please let me know and I'll post it for your convenience.:D

Is it possible the Liberty owners are drinking poop water?:(

PS - Good job on the fix by the way...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dear Marathon Man,

You ask if it possible Liberty owners are drinking poop. Probably not the solids because the problem is not when the potty does not flush, but when you cannot stop the flush. As soon as you turn off water to the coach and the pressure drops to zero, if the coach does not have a spring check valve (ours and many like ours) the contents of the toilet will backflow to the fresh water holding tank.

Apparently when Liberty changed to the Head Hunter water pump (120V) the spring loaded check valve was added.

Every single system drawing shown by Head Hunter of their toilet and flush valve shows a check valve in line, and almost all show an individual shut off for the toilet. The worst part of the whole situation is HeadHunter is showing these as installed in boats with sea water for the flush, a condition where backflow would have no heath consequences to the owner.

[truk4u]

I think your on to something that almost sounds like a technical bulletin is needed. Contaminating the fresh water supply is a serious issue.:(

[Just Plain Jeff]

So, if a coach has an electric flush, that would mean there is no issue here, right?

[truk4u]

That's the way I see JPJ. I have had my Microphor out of the bus and rebuilt it. There is a 12v electric solenoid that controls the water flow.;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Not exactly re: electric flush. The Head Hunter valve is actuated electrically. The key is to determine if it is possible for the water flow to the toilet to be siphoned backwards.

In a house toilet for example, the water flows into the toilet from above, and when the flow stops, the water remaining in the path to the bowl (around the rim and in the passage to the outlet) drains down to the level of the water in the bowl. That leaves an air gap from the outlet of the toilet tank to the water in the bowl. If the water supply to the toilet drops to zero pressure the worst thing that could happen is the contents of the tank could possibly be siphoned out (unlikely because there is also an air gap between the fill valve outlet and the top of the water level in the tank) but that would be all that would happen.

I am not familiar with the Microphor toilet. To determine if it has the potential to back flow all one needs to do is to determine that the supply to the bowl terminates above the highest possible water level in the bowl, and that there is an air gap between the supply discharge to the toilet and that bowl water level. If the water supply is at or below the bowl water level and there is no air gap, meaning a siphon is possible, then my remarks about the Head Hunter are applicable to the Microphor.

Tom, in between supplying Jet Fuel to Waltrip, how about taking the time to determine if the Microphor is similarly affected or if it is safe to use without some form of back flow prevention?

[mike kerley]

Jon,

Our Microphore (?) supplies water to the bowl from under the toilet rim. There is a check valve that (if its working properly) would prevent a "giant occurrence" from filling the bowl and back flowing into the fresh water if the pump was off and there was no pressure in the line.

Were fairly safe. Flush often!!!!

Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mike, That sounds like an air gap. If I understand what you said, a backflow to the fresh water tank could only occur if the toilet bowl flooded to the rim, the check valve failed, and there was zero pressure in the supply line.

(I will presume here that the solenoid valve Tom spoke of would also have to fail open)

Sounds like you Microphor guys have one less thing to worry about.

[truk4u]

As Mike said, the water flows from the top of the rim. There is an overflow hole that has a vacuum breaker and tubing to form a p-trap to keep odor out of the bus. Should the water supply solenoid fail to shut off, the bowl water runs in the overflow and back down into the hopper assembley to the black tank.

I think us electric guys are safe, as long as we keep Anaconda Boy from using our tiny little bowls.;)

[mike kerley]

I suppose that a large mass of flesh could seal the top of the bowl and then a large volume of "gas" could be flushed into the sealed area, forcing water up the sides and into the water line. Nah. Never mind.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Could that gas be used to seat the bead on my tires?

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Could that gas be used to seat the bead on my tires?

Jon, who are you trying to make an A** out of ? :D

I don't think I would volunteer to hold that match either ! :eek:

Gary S

[GaryB]

HELP! We are very new to this. We have a 2006 Liberty. Yesterday we noticed a foul smell. (Our bus has been parked for about a month at our new farm. Having had to replace the space heater in the water bay, having first drained all the water, all the water in the fresh water tank was new a week ago.) Back to the smell. We Searched and found black water had backed up from the shower drain. The black water tank was about 15% filled. My wife noticed the gray water bypass was closed and opened it and the water drained from the shower. We put some clorox down the shower and washed the shower pan.
We had something like this happen a few months ago out on the road.
What are we doing wrong? Why would black water back up into the shower when the tank is almost empty and why would it drain when you open the gray water bypass. We're in Dallas and what I know about plumbing is even less than I know about electricity. HELP. By the way, if anyone could talk to me or email me about this, that would be wonderful. gary.lawson.lawyers@gmail.com or 469.964.8500 thanks 2 million!

[Joe Camper]

Here's what I think is going on. On your Liberty you do not have separate grey and holding tank there's just one.

You have Headhunter tank sensors and possibly your tank sensors need to be calibrated because what it's saying it's 15%. It's completely full.

By opening the gray water bypass it lets everything out onto the ground except for the contents of your holding tank so that's why it drains out when you open up the bypass, that is working correctly.

In my opinion there is 2 things that could be causing this and calibrate the tank level sensors is one of them. Headhunter has a very easy process for you to do that.

If you go to the remote panels for the tank level sensors and take the four screws and pull the panel away you will see some dip switches on the back of those panels we're all the little red lights are and you calibrate those tanks first empty and then full. If u r lucky that's all you need to do.

However before u do that check another component first.

Another thing with the Headhunter tank level sensors that could be causing the bad calibration. There's little quarter inch push in Street elbows at the top of the tank where the airline goes into the tank and then down. If those Street elbows failed and they r leaking air it could be that causing the incorrect t level. It could also be the micro compressor the little micro air compressor that they use could have failed as well but prob not in this case.

I would go to those little push in fittings the street elbows on the top of those tanks check there first, those fail all the time. If it's not the street elbow then calibrate the tank.

I think you could test the micro compressors there is a little red reset button on them and there should be a green light for them on the compressor. There r 3 of these they look like a small fish tank air compressor.

If it seems like it's kind of complicated all this to go through for your tank level sensors well you'd be right because it is. I do not care for Headhunter I think their systems r over complicated and overpriced.

If u go through the house manuals Headhunter and calibration procedure will be in there or they also have it online.

If the airline at the elbow is leaking snip a short bit off the end and reinsert it.

[Gil_J]

Agree with Joe. Your tank is full.

The first thing I would do is make sure the flashing LED on the bottom of the micro pump is flashing green. If it's flashing red there is a leak in the line. If it's flashing green, disconnect the hose from the bottom of the pump and blow it out. It's possible debris is restricting the air/fluid flow in the tube in the tank.