New member and questions

[kev]

Hi all. I'm a new POG member as of a couple of days ago. I've been lurking about for quite some time reading as much as I could without being a paid member. When I finally got tired of not being able to see all of the cool photos I decided that it was time to pay up. I've been spending the last couple of days soaking up as much of the knowledge on this forum as my poor old brain will allow.

Anyhow, I'm currently in the market for an older '96-'97 Liberty XL 40'. Would it be appropriate to ask the following questions via email to a dealer about a specific coach prior to a first telephone call with that dealer? I'm the type that prefers to do as much research as possible so as to weed out the bad apples before wasting too much time (mine and the dealer's). Here's what I put together for an initial set of questions. What do you guys think?

Build Sheet
VIN and Coach Build (serial) Number
Engine Model and Serial Number
Any additional detailed photos (interior and exterior)

How many owners?
Does it contain a complete set of Prevost and Liberty manuals?
Are there any known issues with the coach? Recent repairs/replacements?
Are there complete repair logs from new until now?
Are there complete maintenance logs from new until now?
What are dates and types of all tires (including inside drive)?
What are dates and types of batteries (house, chassis, generator)?
When was the most recent engine, transmission and generator service performed?
When was the most recent A/C service performed?
When was the most recent brake service?
Have the brake chambers, airbags, shocks or norgren (ride height) valves been replaced? If so, when?
Have all safety recalls been completed?

I realize that many of these questions will be easily answered if the coach has a complete set of repair and maintenance logs. Is this asking too much of a preliminary review, not enough or spot on?

Thanks and I look forward to this new journey wherever the road may lead.
Kevin

[dale farley]

Kevin,

I've been waiting on someone else to reply, but since that hasn't yet happened, I will give an opinion. All the questions are great questions and things that we all would like to know before purchasing a Prevost. Some dealers may think the questions are somewhat "extensive" for the first inquiry via email. Although valid questions, it will take a dealer a significant mount of time to compile the answers if they are able to do it at all. You would probably be better off to ask a few of the most important questions, establish a relationship with the dealer and actually view the coach before expecting to get comprehensive answers to every question.

[kev]

Thanks, Dale. I'm just beginning my search and I guess I'm just a bit nervous about the whole inspection process. I've been reading a lot of POG posts and it's been suggested that a buyer have the coach inspected by a conversion company as well as by Prevost (for a chassis inspection) and maybe even by Detroit Diesel. I'm in the Tampa Bay area so I think my options are pretty good here with regards to finding a reputable inspector.

I'll take your advice and whittle down my questions to the most important and establish a relationship with a dealer before asking too much. If it were you looking at a '96 or '97, what would your most important questions be?

[Gil_J]

Kevin,

I'm in the Tampa area, Crystal River, and can probably help you in your quest for the perfect coach. I can't reply in detail right now, I will.

[dale farley]

Kevin,

If you haven't already looked, it will be beneficial to go to "Articles" on the top line menu and then click on "Pre-Purchase Inspection (Check List)". It is a very comprehensive list of things to look for when purchasing a Prevost. You can customize it to fit your particular needs.

Some of the most expensive items are always the house batteries, tires (max tire life 5 to 7 years), and air systems. It is always a good idea to get a pre-purchase inspection from someone who knows what to look for. As Gil said, he is close to you, and he is one of the most knowledgeable people you will find when it comes to Prevosts. I would definitely take advantage of his offer to help. Don't hesitate to post more questions as you proceed with your search.

[kev]

Gil - Thanks for the offer to help. I've driven these buses both for family (when my parents owned one) and as a transport driver so I am somewhat familiar with them. However, the detailed information that I read in some of the posts on here makes me feel like I don't know squat. It's nice to know that you're in the area.


Dale - I don't think I've seen that Pre-Purchase Inspection check list. I'll go have a look. Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions as things move along. I'm doing my best to use the Search tool for all it's worth before I start asking too many questions.

[JIM KELLER]

Kev, Proceed on your quest with the following information. Some Converters designed their conversions to be plugged into power most of the time. Some require that their generators run whenever disconnected from power. Some Converters supply electrical and plumbing schematics of each Bus they build [ very important for people that want to maintain the Bus themselves ] and other Converters keep this information secret so owners have to return to the facility that built them for repairs. Although some Converters are no longer in business, the wealth of information and source of parts available on this site will keep you rolling.

[kev]

Jim - since I'm planning on being a full-timer and will do a lot of dry camping I'm looking for a conversion that is going to be ok with running off of a bank of 8+ house batteries overnight until I can recharge the next day (ideally via solar with generator as a backup). Something that needs to be plugged in every night or most of the time will definitely not work for me. I also don't want to have to run the generator in order to cool the coach while driving. I seem to remember that my parents' Liberty had manuals for everything you could imagine. I want to say they had plumbing and electrical but I can't remember exactly. I'm all about DIY so having detailed manuals is a big plus in my book. I see that you're in a CC. Do you have much dry camping experience with it or with other Prevosts?

Oh, and I notice that your location shows Franklin, NC as well as Brooksville. I'm back down in the Tampa Bay area now but have just spent the first half of this year at a house in Sky Valley, GA (just up the road from Dillard, GA). It sure is beautiful country up in those mountains.

[dale farley]

Kevin, There are many other coaches without roof air. Although I have never done much dry camping, my bus would be a good candidate for installing solar on the roof because I have no roof airs and very little obstructions of any kind. CC has their own bus air while driving down the road, but most do have roof airs for cooling while parked. You will find many variations of air conditioning systems in Prevosts. If your dash air is working properly, it will provide a significant amount of the required cooling while driving. If it gets too hot for the dash air, I can run one or both of my basement airs while going down the road without running the generator.

Many CC conversions, have roof airs for cooling the house, dash air for driving and their own smaller version of OTR air when extra cooling is needed. My Marathon had Cruise Airs so it didn't have roof airs. I am not sure if CC used any Cruise Airs in their buses or not. If they did then they wouldn't have roof airs.

Whatever solar you install, you will have to deal with the curvature of the roof as shown in the picture.

[JIM KELLER]

Kevin, I'm going to go out on a limb here and probably shoot myself in the foot but here goes.

If you are in the market for a Liberty and

Planning on being a full timer and

Wanting to do a lot of Dry Camping and

Are all about DIY,

You could be heading down the wrong road.

Just saying.

[kev]

Jim - From what you say, it sounds like maybe I need to take a different approach and ask which converter is most able to meet my needs rather than try to talk myself into a Liberty conversion that might not be well suited for the task. From what I've been reading it sounds like I might be a bit hard pressed to find schematics and diagrams for a Liberty conversion, which would make it a bit tougher for the DIY stuff.

Dale - As for the roof air, I guess I'll just have to keep my eyes open for a coach without roof air and then, if it's worth a deeper look, figure out what type of OTR air it uses. Does that sound like the correct approach?

[Gil_J]

Kevin,

Don't be afraid to ask for any information you feel will help you determine if it’s the right coach or will help you determine the value of the coach. With that said, take the information on service records with a grain of salt. Don't get me wrong, historical service records are a plus, but won't always tell the whole story or tell you how the coach was operated. I recently troubleshot an electrical problem with a new owner’s coach he had just purchased from an owner that supplied reams of service records. Those records didn’t indicate why both alternators were connected to the chassis system leaving the house system without an engine supplied charging system. Clearly, there was a known problem. Newer tires and batteries should be good but not if the batteries were abused or the tires were driven thousands of miles under inflated, there value may not be what you had hoped. My point being is that you can find great coaches without service records and coaches with maintenance surprises that have service records.

You are looking for a mid-90s 40-foot XL. You are limiting your choices with a 40-footer and by not including XLs through 2000. I too was looking for a 40-footer, but there simply weren’t enough choices. I have a 45-footer and my fear that a 45 would restrict were I could stay proved to be unfounded. I’ve travelled from FL to AK and have never been forced to spend a night outside a campground. The campgrounds that wouldn’t accept a 45 wouldn’t accept a 40.

Other than the possibility a newer XL would be outside of your budget I can’t imagine a reason for ruling out newer XLs. In the later years, they beefed up the front suspension to handle more weight. You might be surprised how heavy some of these coaches are, especially when readied for full time use.

Why limit your choices to Liberty? I believe all major converters of XLs did a good job, some better than others. Liberty has always been the winner of the bling award, but there’s much more to a coach than bling. Personally, I was looking for a Royale (Monaco) because they didn’t go overboard in unnecessary automation and they had wood grained interiors. I own a Country Coach and know now that CC did some of the smarter behind the panels engineering and system design.

Some converters have air operated systems, like doors, that require you to maintain air pressure when camped. Some converters have fully integrated most coach systems into a Crestron home AV and lighting automation system. Others used their own integrated control system. Others used simply relays. At least one converter uses a single metal tank for both black and gray water. BTW, I suspect almost every one of these tanks that are over 10 years old do or have leaked. Some converters took the lead in offering a glass dash before the industry was ready. Some converters used toilets that require the use of an on board high pressure water pump while others engineered the black water system in a way that allowed them to use city water pressure and a less complicated drop toilet. My point is that each converter took a different approach to their coach systems.

The biggest differences between conversions is likely their electrical systems. Some designs allow for some of the air conditioners to work through the inverters. These will generally have a 24-volt house system with some number of equalizers for the 12 V demands. These will always have Trace 4000-watt inverter/chargers. For your off grid desires, the Trace 4000 is a very good option. Others will have 2000-2500 watt inverter/chargers and most likely be 12V. Engine charging is always supplied to the house system through a shared 24-volt alternator, dedicated 12 or 24-volt alternator, or infrequently through 120V engine driven generator.

Air conditioning is another area where converters differ. I like having an engine driven air conditioning system when driving. Country Coach used Prevost dash air and their own system for the rest of the coach. Prevost’s OTR air is a great system for those that want maximum cold. The down side is that it uses two half bays and requires a 30+ HP compressor. If not mistaken, they regulate the inside temperature by regulating the heat rather than cycling the compressor. If so, that’s not very efficient. While plugged in or using the generator or inverter, you will see roof airs, basement airs and cruise airs (split systems). Each has its pros and cons.

Your greatest concern should be support. Obviously, Prevost is the goto place for the chassis and Detroit/Allison for the engine and transmission. Sure, there are many other places, but these are hard to beat. Whether or not the original converter is still in business isn’t as important as whether you can get support for the systems they used. After this many years, you have to expect some obsolescence of some systems or repair parts. There are support networks, such as this forum, converters, and conversion specialty businesses that can help identify replacement parts or systems. You have one of the most broadly knowledgably individuals just down the road from you at Parliament Coach. Stop over and spend some time with Rick May.

Where support becomes the biggest issue is with those things designed or integrated by the converters. Some converters are an open book when it comes to sharing data necessary to work the things they did. Others are not. At least one converter doesn’t provide basic electrical and plumbing drawings, not even fuse identifiers. This can be a challenge. Again, there’s enough support that you can probably get through whatever the issue is you have.

Maybe I should have started my reply with this thought. None of the conversions built in the mid-90s and beyond were really designed for off-grid use. Sure, you have up to eight 8-D batteries and they can get you through the night with some limitations. I kept my Alaskan catch frozen for a 3 ½ days ferry trip, but that’s all that I was powering. The coaches you are looking at have nearly 50 halogen ceiling lights. These can be changed to LEDs as many of us have done. Your cooktop is 220V, so no cooking on the cooktop. Depending on the outside temperature and your desire to stay cool, air conditioning could quickly deplete your batteries. BTW, repeatedly depleting your batteries day after day will significantly reduce their life. IMO, if you want an off grid coach, it needs to take advantage of propane or you need to become reliant on the generator.

I’ll pause for now and see where you want to take this conversation.

[JIM KELLER]

Kevin, Gil did an excellent job on his response. My intention was to suggest, in my opinion, most of these Buses electrical systems are not designed to specialize in long term Dry Camping. They look pretty, light up well and accommodate the users in a comfortable fashion when plugged in.

[kev]

I appreciate you taking time to write such a detailed reply, Gil.

I completely understand what you say about the maintenance records. As the saying goes, trust but verify. I'm going into this with the understanding that even I find a coach that has detailed records I will still have to do everything I can to ensure that everything checks out (i.e., PDI/DPI, etc.). The advantage that I can see with having maintenance records is that I will know who performed what and when so that I'll have a better starting point for verification.

I've chosen the 40' XL for a couple of reasons. First is the budget. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do with that one at the moment. It is what it is. Second is my other half. She is afraid that 45' will be too much for her to drive and is also concerned that 45' will keep us out of most State and National Parks. I know that you say if a 45' doesn't fit then most likely neither will a 40'. I tend to agree with you. She actually wants to go with something closer to 35' but I draw the line at 40'. There's no way I'm full-timing in anything smaller. So we have compromised at 40'.

I chose Liberty because that's what I'm familiar with. It just so happens that my parents owned a '97 Liberty XL 40' which they sold in 2004. I like the Liberty's OTR air and the fact that there are no roof airs, however, I now know that I can find conversions with their own variations of OTR air and no roof air. I also like the Liberty's fit and finish. There are a lot of similarities and just as many differences among conversions and I know that I will have to spend more time looking at a variety of them to better understand the strengths and weaknesses of each.

The electrical system is a big deal for me since I plan to dry camp quite often. Last night I was reading a post on the PC forum by a '98 H3-45 owner who has 14 solar panels and 8 8D AGM's and seems to have no problem managing his power needs. Reading his post gave me a boost of confidence that my goals are attainable. If a '98 H3-45 can do it then why not a '96 or '97 XL-40?

Support is another big issue. I have heard that Liberty is not likely to provide much in the way of schematics or diagrams for their conversions and that, often times, the only way to trace a problem is to have them walk you through it over the phone. What happens when a problem crops up Saturday night on a holiday weekend when I am in the middle of nowhere? I'm not very confident that the Liberty operators will be standing by to take my call. Even though Liberty might only be a phone call away during normal hours, for a DIYer that is still not a good substitute for having a complete set of technical manuals. So, that is an issue that I will be carefully considering.

I knew some of the guys at Parliament when Steve Mitchell was still there. For me that was back in '04-'05 time frame. I stopped following the motorcoach scene for a number of years and when I checked back in I noticed Steve was gone. I doubt Rick, Ken or any of the others would even remember me. They are literally 10 minutes from my house so I should try and plan to stop by and have a quick chat with them.

Basically, I want to find a coach that will allow me to live comfortably with all of the conveniences of home (when the situation dictates) while also allowing me to spend days at a time parked on a piece of BLM land or in the Yosemite backcountry (where generators are not permitted). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it is probably safe to say that many Prevost owners prefer to drive their coaches from plug to plug, and would never consider turning off the A/C, opening the windows and conserving power. There is nothing wrong with that if that is what they choose. Why not live as comfortably as possible when you have a power pedestal or a generator at the ready? On the other hand, I suppose I am choosing to push the envelope a bit with how I plan to use the coach and realize that it is probably going to take a bit of work on my part to make it a success. Using a portable induction cooktop, updating the TVs to LED, updating the interior lights to LED, fixing air leaks to minimize air compressor run time, updating the refrigerator to a energy efficient model, and turning off phantom loads, etc., etc., etc. I realize that I might not ever get away with not having to run the generator at least some of the time, but I think with a bit of upfront work and careful planning, I can minimize its use. Hey, others are doing it, why not me?

I hope what I've said gives you a little more insight into my thought process and why I've chosen a particular path. That's not to say that I can't change paths, but we have to start somewhere, right? I'm very grateful for all of the comments and information that you and everyone has provided thus far and am taking all of it into consideration. I welcome feedback, suggestions, comments, etc. from all.

Cheers.

[coreygrubb]

Kev, how long at any given time do you want to dry camp ? Geo.

[kev]

Kev, how long at any given time do you want to dry camp ? Geo.

I'm thinking that I'd like to go for a week or until the tanks need emptying or filling, whichever comes first. Then spend a night or two with hookups and Hollywood showers before setting off again for a week or so. Maybe I could stretch it out longer once I get a feel for what works and what doesn't.

[kev]

Kevin, Gil did an excellent job on his response. My intention was to suggest, in my opinion, most of these Buses electrical systems are not designed to specialize in long term Dry Camping. They look pretty, light up well and accommodate the users in a comfortable fashion when plugged in.

Yeah, I know that dry camping isn't their specialty, but I've read several posts from Prevost owners who are bucking the trend and motoring down the road less travelled, or should I say, less powered, and seem to be getting along quite well. It gives me confidence that it is possible for someone, who is willing, to adapt to the Buses limitations without too much discomfort. But I agree, there's nothing finer and more comfortable than a Prevost that's plugged in and all lit up.

[coreygrubb]

Kev, I had a 2000 CC XLV-6 LifeLines-2 2500W inverters and could dry camp 3 days limited by water and waste tank size w/2 people. Gen run time was determined by A/C use otherwise 3-4 hrs to float Batteries. Present bus is an H3-45 Vantare. Dry camp when racing on a regular basis. 8 LifeLines-2 4000W inverters And can go 5-6 days because of larger tanks. I can run the 2 cruise airs on the invertr for quite awhile and if more A/C is required than must run gen, again 3-4 hrs to float. I can dry camp longer in any Prevo conversion than any plastic MH we ever owned. Geo.

[kev]

Kev, I had a 2000 CC XLV-6 LifeLines-2 2500W inverters and could dry camp 3 days limited by water and waste tank size w/2 people. Gen run time was determined by A/C use otherwise 3-4 hrs to float Batteries. Present bus is an H3-45 Vantare. Dry camp when racing on a regular basis. 8 LifeLines-2 4000W inverters And can go 5-6 days because of larger tanks. I can run the 2 cruise airs on the invertr for quite awhile and if more A/C is required than must run gen, again 3-4 hrs to float. I can dry camp longer in any Prevo conversion than any plastic MH we ever owned. Geo.

Good info, Geo. I'm curious, were you able to put a single A/C on your CC inverters without running the gen? Did your CC have roof air? You say the H3 will let you run 2 cruise airs on the inverters. I assume that's as long as you limit any other large loads while the A/Cs are on? Have you ever tried to find out how much battery runtime you could get out of either coach with a minimal load (just the basics and no A/C)?

[coreygrubb]

Kev, we could run 1 roof on invert on the CC. On the Vantare I can run 2 cruise and minimal other loads. The bsmt air draws too much. I have no qualms about running the gen as needed as it is so quiet. Even in places where it is prohibited, no one knows it is even running. Geo.

[Reagan Sirmons]

Jim may be onto something very important for your consideration... I was concerned when I read your comment about using the batteries each night and recharging the next day... on apparently a very regular basis...the concept does not fit these coaches, from my view. These coaches simply don't work that way for very long, from my view. What would you run overnight in Tampa or similar weather conditions that the batteries could support? The upkeep can definitely be your downfall and be very unpleasant.... more complex repairs than you might ever, ever anticipate... If you drag the batteries down below 50%, they will lose a tremendous amount of recharging capabilities.... at least that is what I believe to be true... I am either plugged in or running the generator when stationary... I do not rely on the battery bank even though I have 8 batteries also... I am not an expert... but do have an idea... I use the batteries' inverter processes while traveling and at the time do not have the generator running...(for the T V, Micro wave, refrigerator, etc. ) ..
Be very careful on the application of a coach like these for the purposes expressed...
I too, am just saying...
Pres

[Gil_J]

Kevin,

Dry camping likely has different meanings. Many of us have dry camp; meaning we don't have commercial power. We spent 4 days at the Balloon Fiesta with no problems. We ran the generator for 2 hours in the morning and again in the evening. This is a routine I typically used when on the hook when we were boaters. We could this everyday that we didn't need (want) air conditioning. Our total battery bank drain never put us anywhere near 50% drain, that I wouldn't recommend you exceed. I suspect few have dry camped without using their generator for days. Our coaches just have too much power demands. Some use their diesel heater for hot water or interior heat when on battery power. I bet you won't gain any friends if you use it on a nice day when neighboring campers have their windows open.

At the end of the day, you can do the math on your available capacity and your power needs. While looking at solar panels, I suggest you also look at wind generators. Although I've never seen one in use on a RV, I bet there are many times the small units frequently used by sailboaters would be more beneficial than solar panels. It would have to be stowed for travel, but that shouldn't be a big deal. You might find the following link useful, even though it's focused on marine applications, click here (https://www.emarineinc.com/Wind-Generator-vs-Solar-Panels-Which-is-Better-For-Your-Boat).

Best of luck on your search,

[travelite]

Kevin,

My 2004 H3 Vantare will go 36 hours running minimal loads but still useable before the generator kicks in at 50% battery depletion. Loads enabled include the fridge, water pump, minimal lighting and 120VAC receptacles for pc's and phone chargers, some audio/visual, plus the normal phantom loads. I have 4 cruiseairs so the roof top is bare except for my horns, TV antenna and KVH dish. I have 2 4000W trace inverters which allow for powering of two of the four cruiseairs. Vantare provides full electrical and house schematics with every coach. You can see an electronic version of mine over HERE (http://www.prevostgurus.com/database/Converters/Vantare/Manuals/4620%20Service%20Manual.pdf). Vantare runs all loads thru the inverters which means you have very powerful load management at your fingertips. To do what you want to do load management is key. Keeping the interior cool is the biggest obstacle and this is where you need to think outside the box. My coach has two windows on opposite sides in the salon area which will provide some cross flow ventilation and two in the bedroom, but one of these is blocked by interior decor. You'd want to have cross flow in both areas of the bus. You'd want to use your ceiling fans, you'd want a good reflective coating on your windows. The H3 has huge windows and some sort of effective UVA/UVB sunscreen will be a must if you plan to minimize air conditioner use, another must. There may be other newer tech passive air conditioning schemes on the market if you look around; there's also the time proven low tech methods of parking in the shade, near water, and on high ground. For full timing especially in a 40 footer I'd would definitely forgo the over-the-road Prevost air. It simply uses up too much basement storage space. For full timing I'd very much consider the H3 because of the vastly superior basement storage capability. You may also consider looking at Wanderlodges. I run a forum over HERE (http://wanderlodgegurus.com/) where we can talk about your needs. Wanderlodges have lots of great big windows which can be fully opened preventing interior superheating. Wanderlodges have large propane tanks and gas stoves and propane powered refrigerators. I think Wanderlodges are simply better suited to what you want to do.

[TomW]

Does anyone know what the normal operating oil temperature should be for an 8V92? I have a 1985 xl with a 8V92 non ddec engine. My water temp stays about 185 but if I'm driving 70-75 mph the oil temp gauge slowly rises to 230-235 deg F. This seems high. If I slow down to 60 mph the oil temp drops to 215-220.

[Joe Camper]

If the meter is correct the oil temp is too hot. On my 86 the temp gauge was Trans oil temp not engine oil temp but in any event all of the oil Temps normally mirror the water temp during normal opporating conditions . Should u be climbing a very tough grade on a very hot day with a very big load cenerio then it may climb north of 200.

I cannot ever remember seeing mine ever go north of 200 and normally it hovered between 180 and 190.

[TomW]

Thank you for the comment, I apologize for this question getting added to an unrelated string. I thought it was going to start a new topic. I will do some research and see if I can get this question moved before continuing.

[Gil_J]

Based on some searching, 200-250 is the acceptable range. Some 8V owners report oil temps to be as high as 230 on steep grades. Keep in mind this came from a users group and not from Detroit docs.

[travelite]

The 8V92TA's in the Wanderlodges always run around 220 to 230 deg F oil temps. Chalk it up to the nature of a two cycle engine - firing on every stroke means the average piston temperature is higher than a four cycle's which means higher top ring reversal temperatures which is why multi-grade oils aren't recommended in two-cycles, the viscosity additives don't hold up at the 600 deg F top ring temps, and the oil tends to revert back to its base grade viscosity - not good. Straight weight only.

[Joe Camper]

I'm going to half to disagree with 1 thing said.

Running down the road the 8vs run way way cooler than the 60 series and especially the mechanical 8v that he has and was in my 86.

180 that's where mine was most of the time.

If I would have seen 220 it would have gotten me pretty close to panic mode knowing where it usually ran.

I never went up in the Rockies but east of the Mississippi I could not get mine north of 195 ever under any conditions and that goes for the oil temp as well.