Marathon Mess

[rickdesilva]

I need a little help to see if I’m missing something or being unreasonable. A few months ago I was notified by Marathon that my battery equalizer was being recalled and I needed to bring the coach to them to have the battery equalizer replaced free of charge. Since Florida is a goodhaul from NJ, I decided to add a few items to the list to make the trip worth it for Marathon and myself. In addition to the recall, along with some small items, I added replacement of the lifeline batteries, replace the generator battery, replace the rusted Garrard awning brackets, install the Aqua Stop roof coating and at the last minute as I was looking over my list and wanted to cover every base since I was here ,I added check the inverters operation as I never understood the various lights and what they meant on the remotes. I made a little diagram of the lights and what I was experiencing and thought nothing more of it. I want to repeat again…..I didn’t have a problem I just wanted to understand the indicator lights. I always monitored and understood the “Techlink” display. The Techlink display was always ”green” and “GOOD” and I NEVER had a problem. (Techlink is like electrical systems for dummies) Other than the items that I listed to repair,EVERYTHING worked flawlessly in the coach, we used it this summer (drycamped in the heat of the summer) and up to the day I dropped her off I had not one problem with the operation of any component. So I catch a plane home and I get a call on Wednesday that in addition to my list, the microwave isinoperable, 2 circuit boards in the awnings are burnt (the boards are no longer available so the upgrade is about $2600), a breaker in the bathroom keeps going off, the generator needs a new SCR module and silicone control rectrifier,Inverter #2 is flashing a red error light, and the evaporator pumps in the roof A/C’s are inoperable (I replaced those myself this year). Honestly I thought they had the wrong coach. To make a long story short, their analysis is AFTER they replaced the batteries and the new equalizer, they fired up the generator to diagnose the problem I was having with the inverter ( I NEVER said I had a problem with the inverter) and the generator over charged the system with 145 volts on each leg and that’s what caused the damage……not their problem or fault. We haven’t finished this up yet nor have we discussed a bill but I am concerned what else could be damaged, Marathon’s position is that nothing they did would cause the damage. I’m looking for some feedback from those of you who know these systems much better than I, but my feeling is someone screwed up the installation of either the batteries or the equalizer. <o:p></o>
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[garyde]

It sounds like your systems recieved a high surge. 220 volt.
This can occur when a floating nuetral becomes hot.
Shore or gen power can do this but the nuetral would have been disconnected .

[JIM KELLER]

This doesn't seem to pass the " Sniff Test. " I would go direct to the Generator manufacture and inquire about what onboard devices are in place to prevent an alleged over amperage issue. Are the Marathon house batteries in an easy to get to location ? Are the cables close to frame structures ? Isn't the Equalizer an integral part of the inverters and electrical system ?

[Joe Camper]

Unfortunately the complexity of these campers r often times their Achilles heal. I had an older XL but when talking with other owners was not surprised to here similar experiences in terms of things like not having too many trips where something didn't occur along the way.

In the past when doing work on them I go to great pains NOT to touch any accessories or switches that aren't part of the scope of the work. I learned this the hard way as many buses were in my hands for long enough for other things to fail while I had them. Recently I have concluded that is not completely the best way to proceed.

Let me try to convey some thoughts from both the owners point of view and the shop U R going to since I am both.

From a shop point of view I get more than a few customers that come and have work that when dropping off say everything is wonderful just put some new bags cause I know they r old and want them replaced only to find after the replacement the bus looses suspension air. Apon further investigation it is discovered other components R in fact leaking. When brought up with the customer the line would be OH NO it was fine when I took it to U.

Then what? Well if I don't test the system Im repairing BEFORE I disassemble it there is no ground to stand on. I have learned that any bus that is brought to me for repair is not touched before first getting it to ride height taking a measurement and letting it sit for at least a day or 2 checking that what the customer perceives is in fact the case.

As an owner this is something we should all be doing for all the same reasons. If U R having batts and equalizers and such work preformed, because of the cost and complexity, it is very important U go through these systems when U drop off the coach to make sure the shop knows its whole or we all risk what has happened to Rick.

Im most often doing suspension so in the past I would not go through other unrelated systems with customers but experience has shown me the safe way is to go thru as many systems as possible with the customer when dropping it off is the better way. Might have to run the gen, or put out a slide ect ect ect.

If its here for long enough who knows what will occur while in my possession and as an owner we need to do all these same things for all the same reasons. Even more so with electrical repairs than with suspension but when leaving your buses with anyone it seems to me this is good measure.

When U leave your bus be sure to operate all systems with the mechanic or as many as is reasonable so stuff like this can be dealt with correctly.

Personally and professionally I prefer the owners stay on board whenever possible Ive decided thats probably the best way especially when the scope of work is large.

Good luck moving forward Rick.

[Gil_J]

First, Marathon Coach is a big operation (relatively speaking), needs to protect their reputation, and has deep enough pockets to correct mistakes made while a coach is in their hands. I wouldn't expect them, the company, to cover up a mistake they made. That doesn't mean one of their techs might not cover up their mistake out of fear of what may happen to them. Let me make it clear, I am not suggesting a tech did this, I am simply pointing to what could have happened. Service facilities, like Marathon, surely tell their techs to report any mistakes so they can make them right. Techs that have been there for a while probably have no problem reporting mistakes. A new tech may not yet believe his job is not on the line and may not be as forthcoming. The bottom line is that the Service Manager is ultimately responsible for determining if the fault could have been theirs.

What we all realize is that some failures occur without warning. As such, this failure may have coincidentally occurred while at Marathon. It may have just been its time.

Although I don't have any first hand knowledge, the SCR circuits in the generators are very reliable. Of course, anything can fail. What surprises me is that the voltage regulation circuitry wasn't designed to prevent over voltage conditions in the event of an SCR failure. How many hours are on his generator? It might be worth a call to the generator manufacturer to see what the failure likelihood is and if that failure could have resulted in an overvoltage condition. If its a PowerTech, they are probably no more than 20 miles north of Marathon, San Antonio.


I don't know which inverter/chargers you have. I would guess Trace 4000s. Anyway, voltage protection through the inverter chargers is not necessarily instantaneous. It wouldn't be unrealistic to see a delay of 2 seconds. Also, the AC voltage cut-outs are generally in the below 108VAC and above 132VAC range. Although the techs said they saw 140VAC, maybe it was closer to 132VAC or slightly less. In any case, I wouldn't look at the inverter's cut-out function as a downstream appliance protection device. It is because of a potential generator problem that I mounted my power protection device on my last coach after the transfer switch rather than at the power pole or before the transfer switch. I did so even knowing transfer switches look at the generator voltage before starting their countdown timer. I don't know what the acceptable voltage range is in a transfer switch, so I was just being overly cautious of high voltage from the generator.

Gary suggested this might have been a case of an open neutral. An open neutral is a very dangerous condition. Depending on what is energized on the 2 AC feeds, the voltage on leg 1 or 2 can reach over 200V; obviously damaged appliances and other AC powered devices may fail. I think I will discount this as the problem for a few reasons. First, the transfer switch's generator sensing circuit should be looking at an acceptable voltage between one or both voltage legs and neutral. With an open neutral it should not have sensed any voltage. Let me say, without looking at the sensing logic, it's possible the sensing circuit was not well designed and could have falsely sensed voltage. Then there's the inverters that would also look at the incoming voltage to determine if they should activate the bypass relays. This too should have sensed an open neutral. Although I'm discounting this as the problem, Gary could be right.

The bottom line is that if they only worked on those items listed, then it would seem extremely remote that they could have done anything to impact the generator's operation. I would be asking, based on the work they did, if the overvoltage condition was from the inverters while they were operating in inverter mode. Are all damaged items inverter powered and more specifically all powered from the same inverter? I know they said the generator's SCR failed, and I don't doubt them. It could simply be the SCR needed replacing, but was not at the point of causing the overvoltage condition state described. If all failures are from those things powered by one inverter, I would begin to wonder the root cause. There's no magic shutdown or turn up procedures for inverters, but there are precautionary measures that must be taken to change out batteries.

I want to make it clear, I'm not suggesting any fault by Marathon. I'm simply filling in the "what if" scenarios.

Rick, I'm near San Antonio. If you want me to stop by and check on progress or look it over before you fly down, just let me know.

Best of luck,

[rickdesilva]

Gil thanks I appreciate the offer. I'm reluctant to throw them under the bus as I have always appreciated the support from Marathon. My understanding is that all the damage is confined to the connections from one inverter. I researched the indicator lights that I questioned them about and they are normal. I guess my question is if I didn't have anything done and she was still home, would I have this damage if I just went out and started up my generator. Its hard for me to believe that this just coincidentally happened after we changed the batteries and replaced the equalizer.

[Gil_J]

I too, wouldn't be quick to throw them under the bus, pun intended.

It really comes down to was the overvoltage condition as a result of an inverter that acted up or the generator supplying too much voltage from a failed voltage regulator.

If it was from the generator, I can't draw a logical connection to the work they performed. As I said before, it would be disappointing that the generator doesn't have some overvoltage protection when the SCR fails.

If it was due to the inverter, well I might draw a connection. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to change batteries or an equalizer, but you do have to take some precautions and should do some steps in a specific order. Even pros can make a mistake. The mistakes they could have made still shouldn't have resulted in an overvoltage condition without inverter damage. I suppose that if the inverter was left on and the batteries were initially hooked up wrong, this might happen. Again, it should have resulted in inverter damage, which no one is claiming.

My offer stands,

[rickdesilva]

After talking to a fair amount of Kohler Generator specialists, the consensus is, that its pretty remote that things happened the way that Marathon said they did. The jury is still out, hopefully we'll have some resolution this week.

[rickdesilva]

Picked up the coach Wednesday morning and headed back to the Garden State of New Jersey. Everything worked, Marathon absorbed the cost of the electrical repairs, all is well.

[dale farley]

Rick, Thanks for the follow-up. It's always nice to hear when things end well.

[Gil_J]

Rick,

I hope you can now enjoy many miles of trouble-free travels.

[travelite]

Excellent Rick. We all like to hear a happy ending! Safe travels! :)

[Oscar]

Too add to this thread, I just got a call from marathon (florida) telling me, they damage my slide side paint moving the coach out of the services bay. They told the slide pin didn't lock and the transmission was able to engage in reverser by the tech with out him realices the slide was out. It is not a pleasure day today.