Vegetable Oil For Fuel [Archive] - Prevost Owners Group Forum

Jeff Bayley

01-07-2007, 12:20 PM

I apologize if this topic has already been hashed over. I imagine this topic may have come up before but doing a search for "vegetable" and “biodiesel” didn't produce any relevant results. If someone knows where a thread for this exist then I can read it.

A friend of mine who likes to tinker with things recently bought a dually diesel truck that had been converted to run on vegetable oil. He says it works and runs great. I haven't read the whole site yet but one company that makes the kits has a web site at www.frybrid.com (like hybrid but with an f). Some buses and RV's have been converted but no Prevosts. I have a feeling that you guys are going to have some good reasons why this is a bad idea although I'm not sure why yet. Probably makes the injectors or pump go bad ? The knee jerk reaction is that you would have to be crazy to pump vegetable oil into your Prevost I suppose and that this is probably a recipe for pain and aggravation. Since I've got to replace the engine in my blow 94 Prevost (found a good used engine) I'm thinking that this would be a good time to provision if to run on vegetable oil but I have a feeling this idea is going to get thoroughly shot down.

My post went on to outline the details of how the system works, where you get the oil, my thoughts on the cost/benefit of the whole thing and a bunch of other stuff that most of you are already familiar with or have already thought about so I deleted a bunch of content that is non essential and just made the post long and not extra long.

If it works, it makes more sense for a bus than a regular truck since the process of finding oil and refilling is only every 250 gallons and not every 25 gallons in a regular truck. The mileage is less than diesel I read and that web site also has information on the legality of the fuel although it is
clear is that Sulfur Oxides are reduced 100% and that burning SVO only releases the amount of Carbon that is absorbed from the atmosphere by the crop that produced the oil, in other words SVO is Carbon neutral.

The web site suggest that there is a 5-10% loss of power. By the way, that web site has a forum that uses the exact same forum software as the POG site so navigating around it is a cinch.

If you towed a pick up truck as the toad and installed a huge fuel tank in the bed of the truck (which they make for this purpose already) then you could tow another 250 gallons (or more?) of oil around with you and provision the filter system in the bed of the truck as well. The restaurants evidently already have tanks for this around the back of their places for collecting the waste oil and are more than happy to have you take it off their hands. Still, the idea of "mining" for your oil seems a little tedious if you’re always in this town or the other. The places that haul the oil away are called rendering companies and are source to buy the oil from although I have no idea what they charge or if they filter if for you. I think many of them have a model for eventually selling biodiesel to the public. Cancel that. I’m searching for stuff while writing this. I must be a real green horn on the subject. Biodiesel is only about 20% blend and 80% diesel. You can use this with no modification I guess. Here’s another web site for the dum and dummers like me. http://www.nbb.org/

Petervs

01-07-2007, 12:56 PM

Go for it! The main drawback I have heard ( smelled?) to biodiesel is that your exhaust smells like McDonalds french fries. If you do not have an objection to everyone thinking you are eating a whole lot of ftrench fries while you drive down the interstate then there is no reason no to do this conversion.

You might be spending a little more money on fuel filters than with regular diesel. The fuel companies spend quite a bit on QC, the variances on vegetable oil are likely to be greater.

If the diesel/oil split is 80/20; and you need to buy more filters; and the fuel economy suffers by a little because the fuel has lower BTUs; then the overall economy improvement might be in the trivial range. You might get the same result slowing from an average 65 mph to 55 mph as we discussed in previous threads.

But please do it and then report back. If you are hugely successful we will surely all copy you! Imitation is the highest form of flattery , right?

Peter vS

MangoMike

01-07-2007, 01:04 PM

Jeffman,

Between my joints I generate about 250 gallons a week in used oil.

Make the conversion and stop by for a free fill up. No french fry smell - but a great aroma of Conch Fritters following you down the road.

mm

JIM CHALOUPKA

01-07-2007, 02:37 PM

So Jeff, What do you do when you need fuel and you can't get any of your cooking oil. Will regular diesel still work? How about the generator and webasto heater, can they be converted as well. I think you want to sell the bus after you install a new engine? Did you think about who would be interested in buying it. Tell me one more time why do you want to do this conversion?? :confused: :D :eek: Buy a restaurant and generate your own fuel then it would be free. Go for it. JIM

garyde

01-07-2007, 02:47 PM

It only makes sense for commuter vehicles where you have a renewable resouce for the oil weekly. If half a dozen people tried this in the same area , they would shortly run out of the resource. Electric vehicles make more sense for commuting, and for larger fuel hogs like trucks and Prevosts, I don't think its a viable alternative.

Jon Wehrenberg

01-07-2007, 03:12 PM

If it will burn our diesels can use it as fuel.

The problem is there are some compromises. Peter is right on the money about energy content. But if you can get the stuff cheap enough the only downside is your range between refills is smaller. That is not much of an inconvenience if it knocks some serious Lewbucks off the cost to fill the tank.

But I can see some problems. I used to put on seminars about grease separators such as Mango has for his restaurants and my company probably made more grease interceptors than anybody in the world. First, the stuff (any organic greases, fats, or oils) is very sensitive to temperatures. Under some temperature conditions it stops flowing. So it is probable you need a blend. That may preclude loading up at Mango's, and heading out down the interstate.

If you are talking about new vegetable oils I am not sure the economies are there, and if you are talking about used (recycled) you really need to have a crystal clear picture of the standards. Recycled vegetable oils are not easy or cheap to process. They have all sorts of chemicals (the cleaners used in restaurants is but one source), have abundant solids (finely ground flour is a nasty one to remove), and some oils have an affinity for water.

The principle objection I would have to vegetable based oils is they clog pipes. Not the itty bitty little pipes and hoses we have on our bus, but 42 inch sewers. And not with a jelly like greasy substance, but with a white or tan hard material that ages into an adobe like material, just the stuff I want in my fuel tank or fuel lines or injectors.

I agree with Peter....try it out and report back.

Jeff Bayley

01-07-2007, 03:18 PM

Jim and others-

Why do I want to do this ? Well, I'm as green as green can be on the subject so I'm just at the very begging of the due dilligence process but I guess the reason would be to use another coach I have for going coast to coast frequently doing training seminars and hauling the gear around to the shows. If the fuel cost was close to free then that would pretty much offset the cost of a driver if I were doing say 2-3 seminars a month. Plus, it sort of seems like a near project I guess.

I talked to someone on the phone right now who I thought for sure would say it was a hair brained idea but he mentioned that Willie Nelson did it to his bus and others also he knew of and that it works great. I think some of these that he mentioned coverted to using a blend like half and half but I'm looking into using straight vegtable oil. One guy on the forum of www.frybrid.com converted his bluebird and I guesss it's working great. Went coast to coast and used about $50 worth of diesel. You run on diesel until the veg. oil get's warmed up enough though one of several various systems in order to thin out, flow and burn up.

Regarding the generator and the webasco, I wouldn't think about converting these. I can see the generator down the road but the Webasco doesn't seem to be hardy enough to bear this. The vegtable oil is supposed to have superior lubrication to the fuel which anyone would find easy to belive.

I'm thinking that you would leave the bus tanks and everything as is instead of provisiong the bus with the neccessary holding tanks for the vegtable oil and then again using bay space for the needed filtration system. I like the idea of putting the still and the tanks in the bed of a pick up truck and then you could easliy run around any given town and collect the oil as well as have a toad (which I don't pull one at all now). Then I would provision quick connects for the alt. fuel supply and another one for the return of the unused oil to the holding tanks on the truck bed. I guess you would need several solenoids that would switch between normal mode and toad supply mode. If it doesn't work, I haven't modeifed the bus for nothing and if it does work you can move the toad vehicle between as many buses as you want (I have several) without doing all the tanks and filter installations on each bus.

Jon Wehrenberg

01-07-2007, 03:44 PM

Willie was using bio-diesel, typically a blend, not available everywhere, and it was no cheaper than diesel because it is as highly refined as diesel fuel, of which it is mostly comprised. Guys using vegetable oils such as from Mango's deep fryers have a lot of processing they have to do before they just dump it in the tank. That stuff, while free, is a mix of vegetable oils, animal fats, contaminents such as flour or whatever fell into the fryer, possibly cleaning chemicals, and water.

You mentioned the preheating of that stuff, but there is a flip side to that. You need to pray you do not get shut down on a cold day, unless you can purge the entire fuel system with diesel fuel, because if you do not do what is effectively the reverse of the pre-heat you could have your entire set of fuel lines filled with gelled vegetable oil.

jello_jeep

01-07-2007, 03:47 PM

Jeff, one great thing about all this, is it makes me feel less anrgy at paying the price for diesel, because it sure seems to me its a helluva lot easier to pull into the Flyin J and fill up, albeit less adventurous ;)

MangoMike

01-07-2007, 04:08 PM

There was a story in the Wasington Post a couple of months ago about drivers doing this. They had their favorite restaurants which they visited once a week for a fillup. Seems like they had to do some pre-filterng before it was pumped into the tank, but it didn't seem to be that big of deal. Of course we're talking a vw diesel so it wasn't a whole lot of oil and as Jeff said they still had to use diesel until the oil was warmed. I'll see if I can find the article.

Jon is right about grease getting like cement. We don't have a grease interceptor at Mango's in Alexandria (pre code), so once a quarter we have to take a 3000psi water jet "scraper" hose and run it 200' to the street to keep the 4" pipe clean or it will completely clog. And no we don't dump our used deep fat oil down the drain, it's just the day to day stuff that get's washed off the dishes and pots.

Mike

JIM CHALOUPKA

01-07-2007, 04:26 PM

Jeff, Far be it from me to tell you not to do it. At my age and with my outlook on life I would not. You however have what appears to be a great desire, a specific need and the means to make it happen. I would encourage you to line up your supply sources with firm contracts before you procede. Endeavers such as this are all about the details! GO FOR IT and GOOD LUCK. :) ;) I hope it works out. JIM

Jeff Bayley

01-07-2007, 08:05 PM

I can't tell you how shocked I am that there has been so little resistance to this concept and also surprised that this topic has eviendetly not been gone over prior. I thought for sure you guys would have 6 ways to Sunday to shoot this thing full of holes. Jon has posed the only plausible concern being that if the engine coasts to a hault for some reason with fat in the lines then your SOL once the fat cools and solidifies. Under normal operation of course what happens is that you switch back to diesel for a few minutes prior to shutting down.

The idea of having several "stages" on the supply truck is good. Would take a lot less time to metl 35 gallons of fat until the balance got up to operating temperature. This system only makes sense of course if your either logging lots of miles OR if you've given up on the bling award and want to have bragging rights at POG III. Someone has suggested selling the idea or something to that effect. I don't think I have the time to make a business out of it but I would be a customer RIGHT NOW if someone said they could sell me a pre-provisioned truck with tanks and a refinery in the bed of the truck and show me the ropes of collecting used vegetable oil. Maybe that IS a business for someone. Sounds like the next best thing to being a Green Peace member to save the whales in the event you can't get away to ride shotgun on an inflatable in the oceans.

To the part timer, this obviously only makes sense if you've got an interest in it as a hobby or topic of conversation. I can imagine that if I were an independent truck driver this would make even more sense.

merle&louise

01-07-2007, 09:43 PM

Would a hybrid Prevost work? Just like a hybrid car or truck.
Maybe a small 150 hp diesel in combination with an electric motor.
The Toyota Prius gets 60 mpg in the city and 51 mpg on the hiway.

Could the generator be used to charge the batteries?

How would you determine how many batteries would be needed?

Golf carts seem to run fine all day on the golf course, why couldn't a bus?

I'll bet the CG owners would love to see a Prevost plugged into shorepower to recharge all of those batteries!
If they like to charge $2.00 for the extra person, what do you think they would charge .....

Jeff Bayley

01-08-2007, 01:54 AM

I got around the reading a portion of the thread of the guy who had the
Bluebird wired for vegetable oil and here is a highlight from his posting. This is the guy that used $50 of diesel coast to coast. If you care to read the entire thread it can be found at the link below with photographs of the system on board the Blue Bird.

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6600

The forum is like this forum in the club mentality sense and the guy had offers out the ying yang from his fellow enthusists offering free, pre-fitered oil (fuel) along the way. Some of them had so much they needed to get rid of some they said. Crazy that this thing seems to work. This guy didn't carry a toad with the set up like I am suggesting. He had everything built right into the coach including the hose on a reel to suck up the oil. What people do is suck from the top of a given tank and bybass the need to filter more than is neccessary becasue the food pieces and water are mostly at the bottom. Filtration still a mandatory step but you can imagine how much more so if you had all the settled junk to also filter. The variation of the oil or lack of consistancy doesn't appear to be an issue.

(begin quote)
Hello all.
I am writing this from BC, Canada, after completing our first day running on our newly converted Elbee!

I am happy, and perhaps a bit amazed, to report that the VO system is running perfectly. I do mean perfectly. I have been testing it all day, comparing full throttle hill climbs on SVO vs. Diesel and back, and I can say that this conversion is 100% flawless. It is simply impossible to tell the difference between the two fuels. In fact, it has been running so well, that I had the sick fear that Chris and Forrest actually faked the whole install and made the little light turn green, just to get me the hell out of their shop.

However, sure enough, the diesel tank fuel gauge did not move and the VO gauge ever so slightly declined, not to mention that wonderful “kitchen smell” permeating the air from the 11 liter Cummins engine! 400HP of Vegetable Goodness. What a goof to get so much power from grease!

Chris did an amazing job! I am so glad I decided to go with Frybrid to do this conversion. World class work -- and I am snobby and skeptical of everyone, so I really mean it when I say, this conversion ROCKS!!!

Thank you for all your offers of oil thus far. So far, it looks like I am not going to go south enough to take anyone up. Of course, I may change my plans if I can not find any sources further North.

MangoMike

01-08-2007, 07:25 AM

We'll have to rename them:

Fryvost.

Jeff, You may be on to something. I think you should push ahead. Again, free oil at my stop.

Mike

Jeff Bayley

01-08-2007, 07:58 AM

Here are some a few points of interest on the topic from the www.frybrid.com web site.

Biodiesel (which we are not using here) requires that the fuel is modified each time it is collected. SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil) systems modify the vehicle so that the unmodified fuel can be used. The making of biodiesel requires that oil is collected and filtered, then heated, mixed in exacting proportions with lye and methanol (caustic and explosive substances) and that the resulting glycerin byproduct is disposed of. Failure to properly titrate the mixture will result in soap. SVO requires only that the oil is collected, filtered and dewatered.

Waste oil MUST be filtered and dewatered before being put in the vehicles fuel tank, if anyone tells you that you can simply pump waste oil from a dumpster, through a filter and into your tank, they are either very ignorant or simply lying in order to sell you something. Simply pumping oil through a filter will damage the injectors, injection pump, fuel pump eventually. Doing so is a form of mechanical "Russian Roulette" and just as with "Russian Roulette" catastrophic failure will occur, it is not a matter if "IF", but of "When".

We strongly encourage the formation of vegetable oil co-ops to spread the time and expense of collecting and processing oil. Look at our Vegetabe CO-OP Guide for information about starting such a venture.

What kind of vegetable oil can I use?
Any kind of vegetable oil that you can collect, filter, dewater, and pump into your tank. The Frybrid system can handle hydrogenated oil and even animal fats, however you may find it difficult to collect and process these types of fat.

What if you can't find vegetable oil?
The Frybrid system is a dual-fuel system; The existing diesel circuit is left in place. The engine is both started and shut down on diesel fuel and can operate using the diesel tank at any time. If you do not have vegetable oil available or are lending your vehicle to someone not familiar with the system, all you need to do is flip the override switch and the vehicle operates just as any other diesel vehicle.
(end excerpt)

I think the guy with the Bluebird that had so many people offering to give him fuel coast to coast was partially because it's so niche that they don't have much demand for other users getting into their supply. I guess once you get into the swing of things that the pick up of waste of oil and filtering of it is fairly simple. Some of these users have 3 vehicles that run on the juice. Simple enough for others to give their supply away it seems. These guys encourage the formation of co-ops where people exchange the oil with each other in this manner. Mango, I'm sure you could put a post on this Frybrid site (free to join) and get someone local that would take the oil off your hands. Might be interesting for you to peer into their world this way perhaps. There goes my fuel supply.

Being able to pick up the oil like this is the next best thing to swinging into a regular fuel stop. Eliminating the dumpster diving, so to speak, goes a long way to making the concept practical.

Here's another link to a map that shows where the offers of fuel came in from for this Bluebird owner that ran on waste vegetable oil.
http://www.frappr.com/stevelsprogress

Jon Wehrenberg

01-08-2007, 08:01 AM

FWIW, used fryer fats and oils are recycled all over the country. I haven't been involved for about 7 years, but at the time when I was actually working there were companies that picked up the grease from restaurants and processing it so it could be resold for the manufacture of munitions, lamp oil, animal feeds, and even cosmetics. Its final use was determined by the market in the local region. It is a big business and some companies are national, using sophisticated trucks to remove and separate the fryer grease from the grease trap grease and sewage.

The process is much more complex than the posts above would suggest. Initial processing involves heating to very high temperatures to begin separation and removal of water and solids, a centrifuge to further remove solids, and other steps to reach the level of purity required by the specific market.

Lest you think you can just pour Mango's fats and oils in a tank consider that if the product was so easy to use as fuel every restaurant in the country that generates this product would be using it as a heat source, just like bus and truck service centers use drain oil as a heat source. If I were to guess, just the suspended flour in Mango's fryer grease would plug the fuel filters before a tank of this stuff was run through the engine without some serious removal efforts.

JIM CHALOUPKA

01-08-2007, 08:10 AM

Also! What of the road tax issues and permits and regulations to manufacture and process fuel and it's transport and EPA compliance?

Jeff Bayley

01-08-2007, 08:17 AM

Jim- Here is the link that answers that question: http://www.frybrid.com/faq.htm#legality

I suppose the arguement could be made that your transporting used vegetable oil, not fuel. ?? I wouldn't let a pesky old thing like the letter of the law stop me.

win42

01-08-2007, 08:59 AM

Gentlemen I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you! We will collect road tax on each gallon you use.(and even use some of it to actually improve the roads) Of course we would require you to have a catalytic converter on your exhaust to prevent odor polution. The solid material extracted in your filtering process would have to be deposited in a hazordous waste center with fees paid by you. Any savings from this process over the normal fuel costs would naturally have to be taxed as normal income. Please report the progress on this endeavor and any other cost saving prospects directly to the IRS,EPA,ITC andCongress. Remember were here to help.

Jeff Bayley

01-08-2007, 11:06 AM

Dear Uncle Sam- B...b......but what I'm doing is good for the environment ol chap! Take a look.

Each year, all family vehicles in the U.S. consume enough fuel to cover a regulation-size football field to the depth of about 40 miles. As a nation we are consuming approximately 20 million barrels of oil a day, making our country the number one consumer of non-renewable fossil fuels in the world.

Currently the U.S. imports about 60% of our fuel needs from other countries.

Running a family car for a year would result in an emission of two tones of CO2 into the atmosphere.

Each gallon of gas you use releases 25 pounds of heat-trapping carbon dioxide (CO2) into the atmosphere.

1 tree absorbs 1 ton of CO2 in its lifetime.

80,000 acres of trees a day are deforested in the Amazon.

Logging concessions in the Amazon are sold for as little as $2 per acre.

2400 lbs of CO2 could be saved if half an average American households waste was recycled.

The US is responsible for over 1/3 of the worlds C02 emissions.

win42

01-08-2007, 11:19 AM

Dear Jeff Bayley
We know all about the surveys you sent. There is nothing we can or want to do to change those statistics as outlined. Please send in more tax money so we can do more surveys.
Uncle Sam

Jon Wehrenberg

01-08-2007, 12:52 PM

Due to Jeff's growing concern about the use of fossil fuels I understand he will be selling all three of his coaches on ebay with buy it now prices of $200 with free delivery.

His travel will not be in a hybrid Civic and sleeping accomodations will be provided by LL Bean.

Jeff Bayley

01-08-2007, 01:23 PM

Yes Jon......good idea. I'm going coast to coast on a bicyle tour to promote enviromentally friendly methods of transportation. I'm pulling the 17k pound trailer with me. I've got a special sprocket with a gear ratio of 200 to 1. At this rate I should make it back to CA. by retirement age.

Actually, I'm not a Green Peace nut and I don't belong to PETA either. I just got finished eating cooking veal sausage for breakfast which taste like a cross between a Bald Eagle and a Manatee. I like to cook it using the flororcarbons from a can of hair spray and a cigarette lighter.

The $$$ savings doesn't even interest me. I guess I'm bored and a glutten for aggrevation.

Jon Wehrenberg

01-08-2007, 03:42 PM

Good one. I want to see that trailer going downhill, not uphill:eek:

merle&louise

01-08-2007, 05:59 PM

Wait a minute, stop the music, stop the music. Bayley bought a 3rd bus?

I know about the Angola with the blown engine, and I know about the Royale that he parked in New York City for 9 months, and I know about the 17,000 trailer that he tows @ 85 mph while drinking a cocktail.

What is the third coach? Is it the FRY-O-Lator.

Ray Davis

01-08-2007, 06:06 PM

One thing I'd be concerned about is what will Detroit Diesel do, should you need engine repair? I know you've already had the bad side of that with the Angola Series 60 engine. I vaguely remember hearing that DD is not behind bio-diesel, and my guess it that this would send them into gales of laughter, before they refused to work on your engine??

lewpopp

01-08-2007, 08:16 PM

We finally got a good picture of Jeff Bayley with his avitar.

Nice going Jeff, your mascara is not running.

Lew

Jeff Bayley

01-08-2007, 08:26 PM

Merle, Louise, Tuga and Karen Gaidry. Is it Tuga or Merle ?

I have 4 buses but you can't count the rolling showroom for my products becuase it is a cheap Spartan chassis with a front control diesel. I think this would be the preferred platform to test the vegetable oil on especially since I have unused bay space near the front of the bus to put the holding tanks and filtration system. The 3rd bus is a 1999 H3-45 double slide shell that was never converted past the slides. I'm trying to sell it or trade out of it now. Would take half trade in coach or boat and half cash by they way if you know anyone that might be interested in the shell. 8k miles.

Ray- Regarding Detroit on the warranty for the engine stuff, I would probabley only try it if I install the used engine I think I've found. I wouldn't try it on factory remanufactured engine with a warranty.

I'm still doing the DD on the thing. I've got a call into the guy with the Blue Bird to see how he finds his working out. You really need to be logging some serious mileage I guess for it to even begin to be worth the bother unless you let the hobby aspect of it play in.

merle&louise

01-08-2007, 10:22 PM

Jeff,

Merle is my real name, Tuga is my nickname. I'll answer to either. Most people call me Tuga.

Good luck in your effort with the cooking oil. We're pulling for you.:)

MangoMike

11-05-2008, 09:20 AM

3739

Gliocladium roseum is a microbe that “breathes diesel fuel” and could help us produce the next generation of biofuels. This reddish colored fungus was found on the inside of a tree, somewhere in the northern Patagonian rainforests. The exact location is being kept secret to prevent a gold rush scenario.

According to one of Gary Strobel, a biology professor at Montana State University:

This is the only organism that has ever been shown to produce such an important combination of fuel substances. The fungus can even make these diesel compounds from cellulose, which would make it a better source of biofuel than anything we use at the moment

Strobel’s team was surprised to note that the composition of the gases emitted by G. roseum included an array of hydrocarbons and hydrocarbon derivatives, at least eight of which are the most important constituents of diesel.

“Myco-diesel,” could be grown like yeast, with the gases extracted and liquefied to create fuel. Alternatively, the enzymes from the fungus could be harvested and used to break down cellulose directly in order to create biodiesel.

In Strobel’s own words:

G. roseum can make myco-diesel directly from cellulose, the main compound found in plants and paper. This means that if the fungus was used to make fuel, a step in the production process could be skipped.

Another alternative, says Strobel, would be to strip out the enzyme-making genes from the fungus and use this to break down the cellulose to make biodiesel. [Microbiology via ABC Science]

From: http://www.uberreview.com/2008/11/newly-discovered-fungus-breathes-biodiesel.htm

Jeff Bayley

11-07-2010, 10:40 AM

I went to Bus Conversions magazine site to see about advertising my double slide shell there. They have a feature article on Waste Vegetable Oil For Fuel. I just skimmed over it so I don't know if there was specific talk about it's application for a diesel RV but you would think that should be the thrust of it given it being in a Bus magazine. It's going to have several parts to it for anyone that is bored: http://www.busconversions.com/august.pdf

Any other ideas where to advertise my shell besides Bus Conversion Mag and also Busnut.com ? I have to lick my wounds and sell it before it just keeps on getting older and older.

Orren Zook

11-09-2010, 10:42 AM

FYI Here's an article I ran across today regarding Detroit Diesel engines and BioDiesel fuels: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/emissions/epa2007/biodiesel.aspx

Richard Barnes

11-09-2010, 11:06 PM

Jim Skiff, I see our next coach bumper sticker or license plate holder.

"Prevost Owners Group - Making Your French Fries Work Harder!"

Jon Wehrenberg

11-10-2010, 07:15 AM

I don't know if anyone realizes how difficult it is to run a diesel on reclaimed vegetable oils.

First, those oils have to be collected. It's not like the local KFC is willing to give them away. They get paid for the waste oils so you have to have the same arrangement they have to pay for and collect the oils regularly. BTW that is a nasty job.

Then the oils have to be cleaned and all foreign materials removed and disposed of. Water, food scraps, and other less easily separated matter such as flour. BTW, this also is a nasty job, not only the separation, but now you have to dispose of the waste.

Then to run this in the engine you need to understand vegetable oils have less BTU content than petroleum based fuels. They also gel. They are still dirty relative to fuel you buy at the Flying J. So you need to consider how you will start the coach, such as having a diesel fuel supply on board. Then you need to figure a way to heat the vegetable oil so it flows properly. Then you need to have a series of filters to clean the vegetable oil, and be prepared to replace those filters after each day of driving.

Then you need to understand your bus will not climb hills like it does now because with vegetable oil the horsepower produced is going to be a lot less than you now get with diesel fuel. So you need to switch over to diesel to climb hills or accept the fact you will crawl up a hill you used to climb in top gear.

All of this ignores whether DDEC will even handle vegetable oils, how the engine will last without the additives we now have in our fuels, and how you get vegetable oils and clean them when you are on the road.

If it was such a great idea the companies that recycle oils and greases from restaurants would be in the business of selling the processed oils as fuel, instead of selling it for other uses.

dale farley

11-10-2010, 09:06 AM

Orren,

Based on your article, I would think anyone using biodiesel in a Detroit Diesel engine would not be covered if the engine failed for any reason. DD would probably find a way to blame it on the biodiesel regardless of the cause. At this stage of bio production, I think that would be the same outcome with most all engine manufacturers.

Kenneth Brewer

11-10-2010, 10:37 AM

Jon got that right. Then there is the problem of biofuels turning rancid in the fuel tanks, lines, filters, and injectors if left for a time. Rancidity is one issue, algae/beastie growth another, and water generation another.

Jeff Bayley

12-06-2010, 02:04 PM

I'm not considering doing this at present but I ran across another diesel pusher that did here. http://searchingtheway.wordpress.com/live-lightly-tour-qa/ The place that did the custom conversion he says was this place: http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/products_systems_busRV.php

I might think about getting a large enough diesel motor yacht but I've yet to find a Yacht that was converted. Could pick up the waste oil at the restaurants in many marinas.

Jon Wehrenberg

12-06-2010, 03:05 PM

I would rather be broke down along side the road replacing plugged fuel filters or trying to get my veggie oil (actually in the industry it is called FOG...fats, oils, greases.... to flow. It is absolutely nothing like you think veggie oil might look like.

There ain't no way you could collect enough from the restaurants at marinas to get you to the next marina, nor would it be a whole lot of fun floating on the intercoastal or out in the ocean when that gunk you collect (and have to dewater, clean to remove solids, and convert into something that might actually run) screws up your injectors and entire fuel system. If the quality of the waste OIL is close to good enough to run in a diesel engine you are going to have to pay for it, just like the companies that collect it do. And then you still have to dewater it, remove the solids, and still replace fuel filters daily.

Jeff.........c'mon are you playing with us or are you serious?

Kenneth Brewer

12-06-2010, 03:55 PM

Easier and cheaper to switch to propane or LPG/LNG than run 'vegetable'/bio fuel/oil. There is a reason why it is nearly impossible to find fuel stations that carry it (for the legal headaches when customers complain/litigate), even if they had a source.

garyde

12-06-2010, 09:46 PM

I have yet to see anything that makes any sense when it comes to 'harvesting' cooking oil from restaurants, Taco stands, Chinese take-out or whatever. This subject has been around for many years and its one of those 'what if' conversations which always ends the same way, when pigs fly.

Jeff Bayley

12-07-2010, 04:23 AM

No I'm not serious about doing this at present at all. I just find it interesting that several people have successfully done it. And my feeling is that for the ones that have done it it is a labor of love which is to say they want to see if it CAN be done. It is not convenient which is why I pay $4.50 for a gallon of milk at 7-11 instead of $3.00 at the grocery store when that is all I need because it's...........more "convenient". Most of these folks are inovative and do it for the novelty. It is not really practical. Some households with 4 or 5 cars have all VW or Mercedes conversions and have their filtering down to a science (at their house, not a mobile filtering that RV's would have) and they get into the swing of picking up their regular supply and it becomes simple for them after a while.

I think the people that are doing this deserve some credit for trying to make an evolutionary step toward alternative fuel. Or maybe they are just bored. But there are a number of forums of people (several thousand people in this country) that are using WVO in their car every day. frybrid.com is the one I looked at before but haven't looked at it again in a long tmie.

This has some interesting reading for those of you with time on their hands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel Little of the information on the Wikipedia site pertains to diesel.

I Google "Waste Vegatiable oil diesel engines" and the amount of information that comes up is to extensive.

But Jon (and I love you for putting up with my insanity man), you are right about having to filter the correctly characterization of "Junk" into something usable. To me, the bigger the vessel (ie, yacht) the more sense it might make. For two reasons. The bigger the boat, the deeper your pockets have to be to push the slug through the water. Also, you need ample room for the filtration and auxiliary tanks. You would load the boat with the "junk" and you can run it through the filters 5 times if you like between the raw tank and the clean tank. Filters ? Don't know if they can be cleaned or if there is a cost involved but the filtration systems doesn't take up that much room. You can put 3-5 centrifuge's in series and re filter it as often as you want before you satisfied that it's usable. This is bad. I'm finding myself back where I was a year ago and as I SAID, I'm not considering this at present but I like to keep an ear to the ground of what is going on. You keep your standard fuel supply. You don't (you can't) reply on WVO completely no matter how clean it is. The viscosity is too think and fat which is why (the rumor) is that it is actually providing more lubrication for the engine. It is however less efficient at least if you read the Wikipdedia article link above which states your loosing roughly 30% efficiency in MPG. But you HAVE to stop and start the engine on regular diesel to put the regular (lower viscosity) fuel in the lines and flush the "junk" out otherwise you are screwed. The WVO (no matter how clean) will gel and as Jon says you will have a freaking gunked up mess on your hands.

Now our diesel engines usually run like clocks and rarely die but there are those sensor which will shut you down. You've got the 1 minute override on our buses to give you a chance to restart and get off the road. In that event, you would flip your toggle switches to activate the fuel system to draw over the normal diesel fuel supply. One minute would probably be sufficient to flush out the junk and put regular diesel in your system until you figured out what shut you down. But that would be the biggest fear (in my mind). Somehow shutting down and having everything get gelled up. Ugly.

There are web sites that show a network of people that have filtered WVO to give away ? Why ? Because they have made a deal with the restaurants in their back yard and the restaurants tell them "I will cancel my pick up service and you can have the oil but you have to agree to take it all". They wind up with more than they can use. So they'll give it away. De-watered and filtered oil that is.

I think the people that are dong this now are experimenting and mostly doing this to see if it can be done. The like the idea of being innovative and saying "I did it"

Jon Wehrenberg

12-07-2010, 08:01 AM

Jeff,

When I created Jamestown Advanced Products our first product line was gravity separators. That's a fancy word for grease traps. We made them from small ones the size of a toaster, up to large ones that required three flat bed semis to carry them to their destination.

Initially we just built what our large customer specified, but it wasn't long before we did the engineering and design work for our customer. As a result I went around the country talking with restaurants, processing plants and code people. I got an extensive education in grease recovery and eventually put on seminars to teach people about grease recovery.

To the generator it is garbage. It is scrap material they want someone else to deal with. The only people that really care about grease collection are those that have their own sewage treatment plants and infrastructure because they need to trap FOG to protect that infrastructure. To everyone else such as restaurants they would pour grease down the drain followed by a gallon of Dawn if they could get away with it. All they cared about was keeping their pipes clean and the hell with the city's sewer system.

So the grease, fats, and oils that are collected around the country are typically available because of tough codes and tougher enforcement. The collected FOG has solids in it such as chicken bones or flour. It has water in it. It is loaded with all sorts of chemicals because every foot of plumbing up to the grease trap is likely to plug so emulsifiers are used extensively. The fryer grease that actually makes it out the back door into the collection container is as contaminated as the crud that is vacuumed from a grease trap. We have seen or found everything from silverware to towels to salt shakers in the grease collection devices.

Companies that collect and render the FOG have an extensive recovery process. They heat it to make it flow. They separate the water and solids. Then the waste that is separated goes to the landfill or down the sewer if it is FOG free. The resulting material is sold as a raw material for animal feeds, lamp oil, cosmetics (yuk), munitions, and many other products.

There is a reason it is not sold as fuel. It has a low BTU content, it has variable characteristics so on some days it might gel at room temperature, others it might have to get colder before it stops flowing. It is not a good lubricant unlike the fuels we use from the Flying J. The people that use it in their Volkswagon Rabbit go through a lot of effort to use it and I suspect these folks also have chickens and cows so they don't have to buy their eggs or milk. It is my opinion every user of waste grease and oils subscribes to "Mother Earth" magazine and also uses solar power. Good for them for proving a point, but at what cost to them?

In short, the bigger the vehicle that uses waste FOG the more effort that is required to get enough, and in my opinion the greater the cost when that "fuel" screws up the engine. I have no idea how DDEC would react to a fuel that is of such poor and inconsistent quality, but I do know Detroit Diesel will not back an engine that uses it unless it meets their standards, something that is not going to happen.

I think you have a better chance of converting water into hydrogen and oxygen and running your yacht on hydrogen and using the water that is the exhaust for cooking.

Jeff Bayley

12-08-2010, 12:32 AM

Good detailed reply. Thank you. The guy at http://www.liquidsolarpower.com/ that went coast to coast in his diesel pusher with a custom designed on board system that let him filter while he drove..........he chronicled the trip and he found after a while that there were chains that had "junk" and then there was "Junkier". I think he said Chinese restaurants were the lessor of the evils. But what he did was suck the grease into this dirty tank from the top down since a majority of the bits and pieces of junk fell to the bottom. So he never sucked those bins clean. I just checked his web site again. Funny you mention hydrogen. Check out his video if you want. http://www.hydrolar.com/ I have not looked into Hydrogen generators at all and don't even understand the mechanics of it. I recall a rumor I heard over two decades ago that the technology was practical and feasible (for cars that is) but that either big brother or the petroleum industries saw to it's indefinite death but I think that was, as I said, a rumor I heard when I was in hight school. Is it practical or feasible or the way of the future ? When I have time on my hands I promise to research that and let the grease idea fizzle out.