Rough Running, Crude in Racor

[johnbrowder]

When I started the bus after sitting about 3 weeks, it fired immediately, but died quickly after a few seconds. It took several seconds of cranking to restart, but then seemed to run fine. on a 300 mile round trip, I experienced a few episodes of:
1. Loss of power
2. Stumbling vibration
3. Boost drop off

Each time, I would back off power, and reapply, boost would come up and power seemed normal. No DDEC codes thrown.

I assumed it was the fuel filters. It has been right at 1 year and 7500 miles since they were changed.

So today I changed the primary (Racor) and secondary (spin-on) filters. The exterior of the razor was BLACK. There were also black particulates in the Racor bowl. I disassembled and cleaned out the bowl, and unscrewed the vortex from the filter housing.

Inside the bore of the vortex was abundant black material, looking like shredded rubber. I cleaned all that out with WD40, forceps, and compressed air. There was nothing slimy about the material, and there was no water visible in the bowl I reassembled everything and all appears well.

Road test in a week or so.

Photos attached.

This has raised several questions in my mind:
1. Is this normal from normal operations?
2. What is the black stuff, is it part of my fuel line?
3. Is filter media normally black on service (I have never seen this in marine applications)
4. Is it normal for the vortex to clog up?
5. Does anyone install the Racor Vac Gauge in place of the T-handle? I have always done this on boats to monitor excess suction indicating clogged filter or collapsed line.

Any thoughts?
Filter:
9094

From Vortex:
9095

From Bowl:
9096

[Pete]

John, looks like algae to me. How old is the fuel? What climate has the coach been in? Was your fuel tank kept topped off?
I have not as yet experienced algae in the fuel, but have seen situations that looked like this.

[dreamchasers]

John,

Looks like a mess! Mine was not as bad as what you have shown.

I had once experienced algae or water in diesel. It looked very similar to what you have shown. When I first saw it, you can only image what when through my mind for possible solutions. I captured a small sample and had it analyzed. Sure enough, it was water or algae. I have since learned that diesel can attract small amounts of moisture and the moisture can turn into algae. This algae can form in a storage tank that does not have proper agitation and filtering. I thought the algae issue I had was a result of diesel storage tanks (Flying J) being depleted (during hurricane Katrina in Mississippi).

After I replaced my filters a couple of times while running the contaminated diesel through the engine, all cleared up. It was frustrating, but it did clear up.

Good Luck,

Hector

[johnbrowder]

John, looks like algae to me. How old is the fuel? What climate has the coach been in? Was your fuel tank kept topped off?
I have not as yet experienced algae in the fuel, but have seen situations that looked like this.
Last fuel was purchased in mid October at Pilot in Meridian, MS. Was at the end of 6 weeks out west with fuel purchases at some low volume locations.
Bus is stored in 60 degree heated indoor space in Knoxville, TN
Tank was recently stored 1/2 full.

[Pete]

When storing the coach in cool weather, try and keep the tank full so that no condensation or minimal condensation can occur as the atmosphere gets cooler than the fuel allowing condensate to build up.
My bet is that is what has happened. I know during my days of flying that is what we were taught. It is most important in cool/cold weather. Don't know how much fuel you still have from that fill up, but the remaining fuel can be "polished" to remove the balance of the algae, or burn it, and keep changing filters. Then keep the tank FULL in cold weather. (Just my .02 cents worth)
Good luck!

[Ledo]

I had the exact problem with an earlier coach and it was an algae problem. I now add an additive to my fuel ever so often which is highly concentrated algaecide for fuel of which an ounce or two treats 2000 gallons. Ill add it every 4th or 5th tank just to keep a mixture going.

[BoaterAl]

I'am going along with the above as algae due to water contamination. As your bus is still running I would do a 100 mile trip and change all filters again. As your photos show algae caught in your filters they have done there best to catch the crud until they can do no more. Fuel starvation is then the next level.
Racor vac gauges are not recommended in most highway applications due to the fact to being exposed to flying objects. In the marine applications the enclosed engine rooms offer protection for the gauge and secure from vibration being mounted on a bulk head.
The algae additive is a must in your case and the directions will suggest a double dose first time around. It's expensive ($20.00 plus) but cheaper then a fuel polishing treatment for sure.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ditto all the above. If you research algae you will find it is not uncommon, especially when the temps get warm and the atmosphere is humid with a partially full tank breathing in and out as temps change slightly up and down.

There are some debates about treatments with some advocating the use of treatments, and others being concerned about treatments sloughing off accumulated algae and making the problem worse. I suspect a little internet search can find more points of view to confuse an already confusing issue. The best solution is to keep a close eye on the Racor and change filters as often as required until the algae is no longer an issue, with the ultimate solution to be to run a lot of fuel through the tank as possible. Frequent operation of the coach is a guaranteed method of never experiencing algae. This issue is not related to buses or trucks exclusively, but can impact any device with diesel fuel including airplanes which use Jet A. It is very common for aircraft operators to routinely add Prist to fuel as the plane is being refueled as a precautionary measure, but I do not know if it is advisable for our buses.

I hate having long periods between uses of the coach for the very reason you are experiencing. Thank goodness the Racor bowl lets you see some of the accumulated crud and enables you to react quickly.

[BoaterAl]

Here is another product that will remove water from diesel fuel. Going by several brand names is ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL which is a premium water absorber. Most NAPA stores carry it.

Be sure to read the label for 100 % ISOPROPYL and not the regular run of the mill menthol alcohol.

[LNDYCHT]

I see algae quite frequently in my business ( Marine Repairs) and that is what it looks like to me. As others have suggested it did not necessarily grow in you tank but was likely pumped in.
I recommend algacide and conditioner to all my clients and the ones that use it have very few problems. I personally will not put fuel in any of my equipment without supplementing it with Racor conditioner and algacide.

http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.14ecfc66e7a40c1af8500f199420d1ca/?vgnextoid=43cb5242ade5c110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCR D&vgnextfmt=default&Keyword=ADDITIVES

[johnbrowder]

Thanks for all the replies; it seems we have a consensus.

I have shock-treated the full tank with BioBore. I have used it with every fill on my Grand Banks boat... never a problem.

I will start on a couple-of-thousand-mile trip next week, and will monitor the filters and be prepared for a roadside change

Thanks everyone!!

[rahangman]

My 2 cents worth, we had a problem not unlike this one and I elected to have the tank & system "cleaned'" Well, it seemed to work and then I got the idea to try a tank of BioFuel when visiting Ohio and within about 200 miles had trouble making a hill in W Virginia. Luckily next exit was a Flying J, and changed filters/topped off and went on. Another 300 miles and same thing, clogged filters, changed them again , racor lousy with stuff, anyway, went though about 4 changes of filters that trip and will never bother with Bio again, especially in my "Older" coach. Just thought I would add this.

[johnbrowder]

I have a followup question on Racor filters. I always used 10 micron filters on the boat. My bus had 30 micron size installed, and I think that is the specification. The number given in the Prevost manual is a Prevost number that I cannot directly cross reference to a Racor part. Is 30-micron correct?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Yes, you will find it in here.

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/docs/busfilters.pdf


JIM :)

[rahangman]

Jim, I have seen that list also, but question if those numbers are for a S60 or like my 8V92T? I recognize some of the numbers

[BoaterAl]

If you give me the fuel filter number you're using I will get the micron rating for that filter. NAPA has a master catalog with everything you could imagine about each filter.

Usually the mfg. will spec the micron "fuel pass" on primary and secondary filters.

NAPA and WIX are the same number, NAPA uses a 4 number system and Wix uses 5. Just drop the first number on Wix and you then have the NAPA number.

Wix does offer a value line but not available in truck and bus filters.

[rahangman]

Not wanting to contribute too heavily to thread creep, but as long as we are talking filters, I would like to put a little different filter arrangement into my webasto. The current is original but it only has the one element. I thought about adding a double unit as in the original installation and arrange it so that it would be easier to service, the way is now, it took me over an hour to change just the one. A little different location inside of the cover could make it super easy as there is plenty of room.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Note to John....My opinion only. Knowing you have an issue with contamination, your primary concern should be to protect the engine. You do not want to risk getting crud of any type past the filters, so even though the Racor as set up in your coach is primary, I would use a 10 micron element and carry spares. This serves a couple of purposes. It offers additional protection immediately downstream from the source of contamination, and it is the easiest filter to service while on the road.

We experienced a fuel contamination problem and as soon as I realized the filter(s) were getting plugged I parked next to a fuel pump so I had fuel to refill the filters, and I changed filters right there. There is always a little indication the filters need changing so whenever I got that little shudder in the drivetrain I would hop off at the next truck stop and change them out.

[Toy Box]

Stick with the 10 micron. We regularly run the 10 micron filters in marine engines with far greater horsepower than the series 60. Your injectors will love you.

[johnbrowder]

Just a quick update and potentially related question.

We left Knoxville Wednesday to begin a trip by visiting Prevost Nashville for a windshield replacement, water leak, and level 3 service. After the 200 miles to Nashville, the filter bowl was clean and the bus performed flawlessly.

All was dealt with by Prevost. I went ahead and had them change the primary and secondary fuel filters although they had only 200 miles on them.

No problems noted in route from Nashville to Memphis.

Leaving Memphis today I noticed some white smoke under acceleration. It reminded me of what I see sometimes with Webasto startup. I stopped a few miles down the road and did a engine room visual inspected, and checked all fluid levels AGAIN. All was well. I ran about 100 miles down I-55 and the smoke persisted. When idling at the campsite, I even noted some smoke on high idle. No DDEC codes generated, and the only performance symptom I noted was MAYBE a little roughness at low idle. Filter bowl still clean.

Could this be filters again? An injector? Something else?

[Gary Carmichael]

John, wouldn't they "Prevost" change the primary and secondary filters with a level 3 service anyway? I have been trying to get a list from Prevost or any one that shows exactly what is done with a level1,2,and three service Do you have one?

[johnklopp]

Got the following list of leval 1,2 and 3 service from Keith Wilson at the Nashville service center.

LEVEL 1 ENGINE SERVICE:

ENGINE SERVICE:
Engine Service (Oil Change) WT: Quarts: Reservoir:
Change Engine Oil Filters ( Yes / No )
Change Fuel Filters ( Yes / Not required )
Change Engine Coolant Level: Gallons:
Check Coolant: PH level: Freeze point:
INSPECTION SERVICE
Inspect Engine air filter ( Pass / Fail )
Inspect Engine main belts ( Pass / Fail )
Inspect Wheel seals ( Pass / Fail )
Grease drive line U-joints ( Yes / No )
Grease King pins ( Yes / No )
Grease Tie rod ends ( Yes / No )
¬_________________________________________________ ______________


LEVEL 2 ENGINE / LUBE SERVICE

ENGINE SERVICE:
Change Engine Oil: WT: Quarts: Reservoir:
Change Engine Oil Filter(s): Yes / No
Replace Fuel Filter(s): Yes / No / Not Required
Inspect Engine Air Filter: Pass / Fail
Inspect Main Engine Belts: Pass / Fail
FLUID LEVELS:
Check Differential Fluid Level: Quarts: Type:
Check Engine Coolant Level: Gallons:
Check Coolant: PH Level: Freeze Point:
Change Coolant Filter: Yes / No
Check Power Steering Fluid Level: Quarts: Type:
Check Fan Gear Box Fluid Level: Quarts: Type:
LUBE SERVICE:
Grease Front Axle King Pins: Yes / No
Grease ISS A-Arm Ball Joints: Yes / No
Grease Steering Linkage: Yes / No
Grease Brake Components As Required: Yes / No
Grease Tag Axle Lifting Rod: Yes / No
Grease Drive Line Ujoints: Yes / No
Inspect Wheel Seals (All Axles): Pass / Fail
Inspect Shocks For Leaks: Pass / Fail
__________________________________________________ _____________



LEVEL 3 FULL SERVICE / INSPECTION

ENGINE SERVICE:
Change Engine Oil: WT: Quarts: Reservoir:
Change Engine Oil Filter: Yes / No
Change Fuel Filter(s): Yes / No / Not Required
Inspect Engine Air Filter: Pass / Replaced
Inspect Main Engine Belts: Pass / Replaced
Inspect Mini Lobe Air Bags: Pass / Replaced
Check Belt Tension Air PSI: 50-55 PSI:
FLUID LEVELS:
Check Engine Coolant Level: Gallons: Freeze Point:
Change Coolant Filter: Yes / No PH Level: Additive:
Check Fan Gear Box Fluid: Quarts: Type:
Check Power Steering Fluid: Quarts: Type:
Check Differential Fluid: Quarts: Type:
Check Transmission Fluid: Quarts: Type:
LUBE SERVICE / INSPECTION
Grease Front Axle King Pins: Yes / No
Grease ISS A-Arm Ball Joints: Yes / No
Grease Steering Linkage: Yes / No
Grease Brake Components As Required: Yes / No
Grease Tag Axle Lifting Rod: Yes / No
Grease Drive Line Ujoints: Yes / No
Inspect Wheels Seals (All Axles): Pass / Fail
Inspect Shocks For Leaks: Pass / Fail
Drain Air Tanks (Back to Front): Yes / No
Inspect For Oil Leaks: Pass / Fail
Check Hub Oil Levels: Quarts: Type:
Check Tire Air PSI: Fronts: Drives: Tags:
__________________________________________________ _____________




TRANSMISSION SERVICE

Change Transmission Fluid: Type: Quarts:
Change Transmission Filters: Yes / No
Inspect Out Put Shaft Seal: Pass / Fail
Inspect Transmission Hoses: Pass / Fail

[Coloradobus]

We had stopped at a flying j in beaver utah for fuel 2years ago. Afterfueling at their rv island wedrove on. After our overnight stop, the next we could hardly get over loveland pass/eisenhour tunnel for loss of power and engine temp creep. At home, changed out filters,witnessed the same crud pictured earlier. New filters proved great results. When our 8v wants to show higber temps, the 1sr thing i check is the fuel filters twice now has proved this

[johnbrowder]

John, wouldn't they "Prevost" change the primary and secondary filters with a level 3 service anyway? I have been trying to get a list from Prevost or any one that shows exactly what is done with a level1,2,and three service Do you have one?

Yes they would. But since I had just done it 200 miles earlier, I thought about having them skip that part. I decided it was cheap insurance to let the go ahead as normal.