MARATHON COACH - BEAUMONT, CA

[Coloradobus]

I noticed over the weekend Marathon' s website was down.
Today, I notice that at the bottom of their web home page, where their location addresses are, the California facitility is not listed . A goof or is there a story?

[Sid Tuls]

I was at Marathon in Colberg this afternoon and Phil said that they closed that place down. There place was a ghost town itself!! They were doing a few remodels and had a new XLll for sale for an asking price of $1,900,000.00 I think they are going to have it for awhile. It's sad to see the industry like Marathon that a couple of years ago produced 60 coaches a year and employed 250 people

[garyde]

I spoke with Steve Bennett last week. Marathon did close down their So. Cal facility.

[jack14r]

They have converted 65+ in good years,it looks like that this year they might do 4-6,does anyone know the exact number.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While I have no personal experience with Marathon or its coaches I hope they not only can survive, but can prosper. Nothing benefits us as owners as much as having good strong healthy converters. The competition creates a better product and provides us as owners with needed support.

[jack14r]

I am also concerned like you Jon that the largest converter is having a tough time in these economic times,I was at Liberty and Millennium last month and both seem to be doing ok,I guess that there are really 4-5 converters left and only a few that seem to be healthy.I would be interested to hear the numbers each converter converted from Bill Jensen in the last 12 months,I bet that the pecking order has changed dramatically.

[Sid Tuls]

Jack, Marathon didn't have any new Prevost shells at their facilities. Phil told me the only way they would build another one is if it was custom ordered. The one one the show room had the new batteries in it . They are the new lithium batteries at a price tag of $20,000.00 It is a great looking coach!

[Coloradobus]

Yes, we are saddened to hear about Marathon's California facility. It was a good place for service comvenient to Palm Springs and Indio. How long and far will this correction be. So much in the RV business has changed after the bubble burst.

[jack14r]

I sell mirrors to the RV and Moblle Home industries,my sales data tells me that neither has recovered and the Mobile Home industry might be getting worse.I know that the Prevost market is in a different league but if it is almost impossible to get financing it will limit sales dramatically.

[dmatz]

Just before Labor day I did a tour at the Prevost factory, there were 6 shells in progress at tripple slide H going to Liberty complete a no slide XL going to Amadas, a quad slide H just in frame and a couple of others. The gentelman giving us the tour could not remember the last shell Marathon ordered. Building about 70 shells for MH entainer a year down from 370. The motor coach is still at the same numbers 3 per day.

[jack14r]

I am curious if Marathon is only building custom coaches will 1203 and 1205 be their last coaches for inventory?I have heard that the lithium batteries are about $8000 each,is this correct?

[Sid Tuls]

They told me it was a $20,000.00 upgrade on the coach they have on the showroom floor.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Marathon is unlikely to be alone in the pressure to go over the top in what is offered on a coach, and then having to support it. I think lithium ion batteries are a perfect example of how to tip a line of dominos.

As buyers have asked for more and more in a coach the weights have risen. My first coach which had all the features available when it was built weighed 41,000. Ten years later my current coach had grown 5 feet and weighed 46,600. At roughly 1000 pounds per foot the two similarly equipped coaches were at weights that were well within the range for the vintage.

As coaches got slides, wider use of heavy materials such as granite, and more and larger components such as a 20KW generator instead of the 12.5KW on my first coach, weights started climbing rapidly. Prevost responded by building coaches with greated gross and axle weights. The current steer axle rating on the X3-45 is now 19,000. Tires have gone from 12.00 to 315 to 365. Some have 385 tires. Now converters are forced to look at weight reduction in addition to all the technology the buyers want. I think Liberty has gone to multiplex wiring which if similar to what Prevost has done will eliminate many pounds of wiring and related components. The point being that for buyers to get the quality of materials, the many features, multiple slides, no stone is being unturned in efforts to keep the weights below the limits and lithium ion batteries are just one of the expensive ways to accomplish that. We cannot have power windows, power awnings, power shades, power TV lifts, 4 or 5 TVs, double door house sized refrigerators, entertainment centers, joey beds, apartment sized washers and dryers, etc. without being able to accomodate or offset the extra weight.

As buyers I don't think we realize the risk our converters are taking to provide the weight saving technologies. These technologies have to offer more value than what they replace. If owners of the new technologies start having troubles this small bus community we are in will know it in a nanosecond and it puts future sales in an already distressed market at risk. Add to that complex problem the expectations of owners to get unparalleled support from the converter. We have had that high level of support for years and as the coaches have gotten more complex that support becomes even more important, but it doesn't put a penny in the pocket of the converter. Talk about converters being between a rock and a hard place.

I see some rough roads ahead.

[travelite]

Along with you're excellent essay Jon, I'd add that Prevost is also between a rock and a hard place with their motorhome chassis. I suspect they are pretty close to being tapped out on any future gross and axle weight increases. The obvious limitation is the Federal axle weight restrictions on roads and bridges, which are already exceeded in many buses. The not so obvious limitation is the safety margins built into the vehicle itself. With every increase in steer axle GAWR, I doubt that there's a total redesign. More likely, the existing axle is tested and re-rated for the increased load. On occasion this may require a redesign of a critical component (tie rod end for instance), but in the usual case I suspect Prevost is simply eating into safety margins. It's not likely that the 19K steer axle enjoys the same safety margin as its 16K counter part. What this means is fewer cycles to failure; a shorter mean time between failure. The motorhome chassis, supporting that kind of weight, is probably not a 2,000,000 mile chassis. We've already seen rapid failure of steer axle suspension bushings. Again, the onus is on the converter to scale back on load. You're absolutely right, tougher times ahead.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Prevost has never been able to keep up with the converters. Not all, but some. As converters reached or exceeded axle weight limits Prevost scrambled to keep up. In the early 90's two converters had so much weight on the front axle that Prevost came up with retrofits including bigger air bags and double shocks per side to deal with the extra weight. I am sure this has been the pattern for years. I have not seen a time in our years of ownership where one or two converters exceeded axle weight limits despite Prevost continually increasing them. Our front axles are now rated at least 50% higher than what they were when we had our first coach. I doubt they need that for seated coaches unless people are 50% fatter.

You are right in that now that axle weights are up against the highway limits and worse, the motorhome wheelbase now matches the entertainer. Those front axle limits are going to be quickly reached by converters unless they can repeal the laws of physics. The only solution apart from ignoring limits which some converters have done, is to shift to an aircraft mentality where the design of every system, component, and material is biased towards reduced weight. If new coach buyers want 3 or 4 slides and granite floors and enough battery power to run the AC units for several hours then today's prices will look like bargains.

Buyers have to either pay the price or be willing to accept less in a coach. I don't see that happening anytime soon because what's the sense of spending as much as what these coaches cost if the owner cannot brag about having everything powered including the toilet seat.

[Coloradobus]

AS Jon said,
Some earlier coaches were equipped with 2 pair of front shocks and bigger airbags. Our 1992 Beaver XL has 2 pair of front shocks, and we weigh in at 41,940 full fuel (250 gal) and water(110gal),. The front axle is at 13,640lb which is carying 3 cruise airs behind the front bumper, 6 AGM house batteries and a 15kw genset in bay two. Bay One is pass-thru. Bay three is OTR. Add the two of us and 3 dogs, we are at the recommended limit of ftont axle. Our drive axle weighs 18,980, and Tag is at 9,320. Stock tire was the 12R, but we have upgraded to the 315's all around at purchase. Our tires pressures are 100, 95, 95 PSI. Love that solid front axle. The tires have 25,000 miles on them, and still have their "new tire" mold nubs., and don't have uneven outer rib wear!

[Sawbonz]

Our front axles are now rated at least 50% higher than what they were when we had our first coach. I doubt they need that for seated coaches unless people are 50% fatter.

I don't see that happening anytime soon because what's the sense of spending as much as what these coaches cost if the owner cannot brag about having everything powered including the toilet seat.

First, they ARE that fat.

Second, do you have that? I still have to lift my seat. Or pee on it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My toilet seat in the bus is not only powered, but it responds to voice commands.

[truk4u]

See what happens when you get to Jon's age, he's now talking to his toilet!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Judging from the number of posts on this web site about non-functioning toilets my guess is talking to one's toilet might be fairly common. Please flush, please flush, pleeeeeease flush..........

Back to our Marathon thread..........

[Coloradobus]

How about, "It's doing it again!!"

[travelite]

Along with you're excellent essay Jon, I'd add that Prevost is also between a rock and a hard place with their motorhome chassis. I suspect they are pretty close to being tapped out on any future gross and axle weight increases. The obvious limitation is the Federal axle weight restrictions on roads and bridges, which are already exceeded in many buses. The not so obvious limitation is the safety margins built into the vehicle itself. With every increase in steer axle GAWR, I doubt that there's a total redesign. More likely, the existing axle is tested and re-rated for the increased load. On occasion this may require a redesign of a critical component (tie rod end for instance), but in the usual case I suspect Prevost is simply eating into safety margins. It's not likely that the 19K steer axle enjoys the same safety margin as its 16K counter part. What this means is fewer cycles to failure; a shorter mean time between failure. The motorhome chassis, supporting that kind of weight, is probably not a 2,000,000 mile chassis. We've already seen rapid failure of steer axle suspension bushings. Again, the onus is on the converter to scale back on load. You're absolutely right, tougher times ahead.


I have to retract some of what I said above. I checked the parts manual. The 18K IFS has redesigned uprights, upper control arms, lower control arms, and probably other components that I haven't yet checked. Good on you Prevost. :) My apologies for any confusion created. I'll return to my corner now... :)