New or Newer Coach Questions

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Through the years I have seen many would-be owners begin and go through the process of deciding what coach is best for them. While I think we can all agree the appearance is probably a very big part of the equation, and we know a buyer's budget dictates an age range, I wonder if moving up has its benefits.

Our 1987 Liberty was a great coach and we had no intention of getting a new or newer one. A fire which took it out of service for 9 months was all the inspiration we needed to buy our current coach and the improvements in the 10 year newer coach was significant. We got 5 feet more space, better fuel mileage, much greater range, user friendly systems, better fit and finish, and little improvements throughout that in total added up to a much more enjoyable coach.

While I think our vintage coach is in the "sweet" spot (for us anyway) because the chassis is a proven rivet model with an economical engine, easy repairs, proven systems, and less technical complexity I still find myself looking at newer models whose interior and exterior appearances are very desirable. So here are some questions for the brain trust (as this group has been called on occasion) relating primarily to the XLII:

For coaches newer than 2004, what mileage are you getting?
If your coach has slides, and you know their service history, how long do the seals last?
Have the slides been reliable and if there was a problem did you have to go to Prevost?
Have you had issues with bonding of the sides or windows?
If you have power awnings have you had problems?
If you have power shades have you had problems?
Have you had to service the IFS such as replace bushings?

If you had a rivet coach prior to an XLII what are the improvements the XLII has in your opinion that made the extra cost worthwhile?

What feature(s) do you miss on the rivet coach?

What has got me pumped on this topic is almost a week at Prevost for training exposed me to new and newer coaches and while I still have a real appreciation of all the features of my current coach Di and I have been discussing if moving to a new or nearly new coach is a real benefit or simply a way to spend a lot of money with little tangible benefit.

[rfoster]

Jon:

Those 'questions' sound to me like the "fever" to trade is setting in. It happens in the best of families.

We used to call it "MPD" but have not heard that term used lately.

It could be that you are a "Red Blooded Breathing All American" with Human Nature characteristics like the rest of us and you have the urge to trade.

Its ok- most of understand the symptons now and we know what to do to treat them.

Plus the economy needs all the help it can get now.

Go for it. They don't cost much - not.

[jack14r]

Jon,I have had 2 newer than 2004,both of them nave been Liberty's,the 2005 was coach #586 and my current coach is a 2008 is #657.My fuel mileage running 65 in flat land towing a Chevy truck is 6-6.5,as speed goes up to 70 it is more like 5.5,on a trip across the mountains 5.0 to 5.5.I have only one slide issues so far,I am going to Jax on Friday because when the slide is out and it gets wet and I retract it,the in motion light blinks constantly after the slide is in,I must cycle the on off key to get rid of this glitch.I have not had any bonding or window problems with either coach.I have replaced under warranty one Zip-Dee awning motor.No power shade problems or IFS problems.The 2008 has had a charge air cooler,V pod,and a EGR replaced under warranty,the Charge air coolers are a big problem and many have failed,I have discussed this with Prevost and there is not a bullet proof cure yet.We all think that the series 60 is extremely reliable I think that this was absolutely true through the DDEC 3 but I have read and seen many problems with the DDEC 5-6 that make me believe that the Volvo D13 can't be any worse,I hope that the Volvo is better.The later series 60's will not usually strand you just drive you crazy with codes.I have spent 65-72 nights each of the last 4 years in my coaches and besides a total generator failure last year most trips have been uneventful.

[merle&louise]

Jon,

I agree with Roger, it is human nature to want the newest, most innovative coach that your family can afford.

I had a 93 Newell w/o slides. It was a good coach; total electric, no IFS, it held 328 gallons of diesel, and it had a good floor plan for us. Once I saw a slide coach - I wanted one. My 93 had the 8V92 so the slide coach got 35% better fuel economy plus it had more room and an extra bathroom. The fuel range wasn't a big deal to me - I felt the trade off for the slides was more applealing.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the new innovations and floorplan changes outweighed the extra cost incurred.

I would answer your questions as follows:

Slides - no trouble - front gasket 13 years old and rear gasket 5 years old
Windows - no trouble
Power awnings - no trouble
Power shades - I have day/night shades - yes, I did have trouble with them once - the string broke

So I have a trouble free coach with a good floor plan that suits our needs and gets the best fuel economy, but I'm still looking at every XL II that has the colors that I like. I think that they are beatiful and I would love to have one. Financially, I can't afford to own one - but I can still dream.

And I agree with Roger - it sounds like you have the fever! Buy Di that quad-slide Newell that she saw a few years ago. She deserves it!

You can always raise the roof on your garage (or lower the floor) LOL.

[Toy Box]

Jon, I too have thought about getting a newer bus. When I looked at a few 04-06 units, I found the storage smaller, the shore cord was relocated to the storage area behind the right tag, and the extra muffler/radiator/roof exhaust really turned me off. My neighbor down here has a 05 CC with a salon slide. In the two years he has had it, the slide had to be removed twice. Once for slide issues and the second time to replace approx 40% of the exterior panels as they were starting to come loose. All work was done by Prevost in Jax this year. He has told me on more than one occasion he would really like to have his old (1999 45 CC) back. I think I will keep my current unit until the wheels fall off. But I still look at the new ones.

[Kevin Erion]

Jon,
I went from a 99 XLV to a 2001 XLII. I can only say that I enjoy the XLII very much in large part to the larger windows. This change alone makes the inside feel twice the size. Both are non slide so no problems with that. I did have a complete reskin from Prevost due to one very small seperation in one panel, about 3 inches long. This was very generous on Prevost part and I have heard they will no longer be so generous.
I did service the front end and replace bushings, this was at about 110,000 miles. I don't see that as a huge problem, just PM stuff. MPG is not as good as the 99, 6.2 to 6.5 at 65 towing a very heavy pick up truck vs about 7.5 but the price we pay for the things we like.
I have full Gerard power awnings and no problems, as well as no problems with the power shades, which we like very much.
But the other big thing that took me to an XLII was the outside, I like the smooth look and the roof top awnings so I feel the upgrade was worth every dime(thousands) it cost and have no regrets!

[phorner]

Jon,

Although my bus is not in the model year range you are considering, I have had an opportunity to deal with an IFS front suspension which required bushings, and in my case, a ball joint. Due to my limited facilities, I had Prevost replace the upper and lower A arms at a cost of approximately $4,000 if I remember correctly.

Also, we have the Zip Dee power awning, although it is the older "AutoAwn" style. When this awning works properly, it is great. However, it has been a real pain to keep it operating. We are on our third motor (and it may need replacement now..), replaced the control panel, (they have now "updated" them) and have replaced both arms and both rafters. I have spent in excess of $4,000 on this awning. Of course, my coach is considerably older than the ones you are considering.

And, even though I am a regular visitor to Prevost in Jacksonville, I have never, not once, been there when they were not re-skinning an XLII to a certain degree.

All of that being said, if I had the money in hand, I'm sure I would be considering an up-grade to a later model XLII, although I would prefer a non-slide bus which would likely be difficult to find.

And, lastly, I agree with Roger....sounds like MPD symptoms... go for it.... the economy could sure use it!!

Just don't even try to justify it. Can't be done with any of 'em...

[edsaylor]

Jon: I have had an 20 Single Slide, an 05 Double Slide and now an 08 Double Slide. The 02 had to have Slide gasket replaced once and got 6.8 MPG most of the time. I drive 64 MPH or less. The 05 had to have a new awning control board $600+ because of a water leak under the sink in the kitchen. Also Slide pins jerked whole coach when opening. My 08 is coach number 673 Liberty and has the Moritz system. This is outstanding!!! I have one of the last coaches with the exhaust out the side. This coach runs perfectly and I normally get about 6.5 MPG. The slides are perfectly smooth (no pins). Thr power shades on the newer coaches are far superior th the older ones. The older shades had strings that would constantly break. New ones are much better. The windows on my 08 are far superior to the others. I have never had a delam problem. The new awnings work very well, but do not have the support the older ones have if left out in a high wind or heavy rain. The newer coaches with the larger front and tag tires and heavy duty front suspension ride and drive much better than older coaches. All of my Prevost busses have been Liberty's as I think they are much, much better than any other conversions. Unfortunately, with Donna's situation, I do not get to use my coach these days like I used to.

[Gary Carmichael]

Jon, For what it's worth, I am new to the Prevost world. After owning several "Plastic coach's" the 2005 H is our dream coach It is late enough to have a lot of newer things ie heavier front axle, large tires, and thanks to the original owner a lot of upgrades in 2008 Crestron, all electronics, new furniture and all, We have two slides so far no problems, 6-6.5 fuel mileage at 65mph, New batteries and tires last year. I know that we will encounter a problem here and there, but we feel the 2005 is where we need to be now but we will trade for a 2008 at some point. I personally believe the 08 is as good as it gets, just my opinion. Come on down to the rally in Stuart in Feb bring money! Gary

[travelite]

John,

There are folks over on the www.dieselenginetrader.com Detroit forum who have removed the EGR on DDEC V engines. Over-the-road truckers frequently complain about the engine's driveability especially at lower rpm. They've been told by DD to keep the revs up around 1700 which kills fuel mileage. Drivers complain that the engine loses power and backfires. DD throws parts at them, VNT turbos and Vpods, but have pretty much stated that the engine was never supposed to be EGR equipped and it is what it is. The cough isn't technically a backfire; DD says it's turbulence in the intake system caused by an EGR valve abruptly closing at low rpm due to low EGR flow rates. Removing the EGR entails an ECU reflash (EGR delete and VNT turbo delete), new exhaust manifold and turbo, plus labor. Very tempting.

[rahangman]

Perhaps the venerated 8V92T will enjoy a resurgence if for no other reason simplicity?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While new and shiny has a great appeal, especially when combined with adaptive braking, multiplex and some other new features we have to balance the good with the bad. I know exactly what I have right now. I know how to fix it when it breaks, I know how to keep it running like a new coach, and the Liberty build quality and systems set the standard as far as I am concerned.

What is tempting about a new coach is I would get to spec it to suit what we want. Almost. I could get my bus air, choice of floor plan, and most appealing the newest Prevost systems which I really like. But I am concerned about getting it up and in my garage. That long wheel base on the X3-45 could be an issue. Raising the coach to get ground clearance might be all it takes, but that is going to impact what awnings we choose and if we have to use Cruise Airs on a coach with compromised bay space. Roof airs have a lot of appeal and the only drawback we see is noise. We cannot get long range fuel on the new shells. To those who are used to the standard tanks it may not be a big deal, but my 298 gallons minimizes having to visit truck stops, and with rare exception all of our trips are one tank trips with only refueling when we get home.

As appealing as slides are I am still wrestling with the concept of having seals as a maintenance item. I also not only like rivets because my sides aren't falling off, but also because reskinning is cheap and easy. Our list of pros and cons is going to be very long.

When we decide what we are going to do, if we do anything, the question we will be asking and answering is what is it we will get for our money and is the improvement worth that amount of money? We realize buying a coach makes no sense and we will not attempt to rationalize it by kidding ourselves. We will instead be asking would we rather have our money or a new coach.

[Denny]

Jon,
I've never known anyone to "take it with them". If you want a new bus get it, life is too short so enjoy it while you are able to. When I sold my funeral home at age 62 people said to me,"why did you retire, you are young and healthy". My response was "because I am young and healthy".

Enjoy your new ride!

[phorner]

Sounds like you have this pretty well thought out, Jon.

I'm a firm believer in going with what makes you two happiest.... whatever brings you the most enjoyment out of life. From a personal observation, I believe that if you decide to purchase a new bus, you will at least use it.

I know someone here that bought a brand-spanking-new bus a year ago. Parked it and promptly left for his condo for a couple of weeks.

If I had a brand new bus, you probably couldn't pry me out of it for weeks! I can't imagine the excitement and wanting to get to know every inch, every facet and nuance.

Good luck with your decision...

[Alan__]

Jon -

I have to agree with the comment that you are not going to take it with you and from the looks of Washington they might just come and get what you have and redistribute it!

As for your questions: I have a two slide 2006 Marathon which I ordered with what we wanted in a coach and it is going on 5 years 5 months since delivery. Average mileage runs around 6.5, max of 7.1 on long, level runs. No problems with the slides and I still have the original seals. No delamination issues with either the sides or windows. Four Girard awnings work fine as have the power shades. IFS hasn't had any issues and I enjoy the turning radius. I would second Kevin's comment on the view from the larger windows. As for service, both Prevost DFW and Marathon have been top notch for me.

Your daughter is launched in the business and it appears your marriage is stable--go for it!

[travelite]

Through the years I have seen many would-be owners begin and go through the process of deciding what coach is best for them. While I think we can all agree the appearance is probably a very big part of the equation, and we know a buyer's budget dictates an age range, I wonder if moving up has its benefits.

Our 1987 Liberty was a great coach and we had no intention of getting a new or newer one. A fire which took it out of service for 9 months was all the inspiration we needed to buy our current coach and the improvements in the 10 year newer coach was significant. We got 5 feet more space, better fuel mileage, much greater range, user friendly systems, better fit and finish, and little improvements throughout that in total added up to a much more enjoyable coach.

While I think our vintage coach is in the "sweet" spot (for us anyway) because the chassis is a proven rivet model with an economical engine, easy repairs, proven systems, and less technical complexity I still find myself looking at newer models whose interior and exterior appearances are very desirable. So here are some questions for the brain trust (as this group has been called on occasion) relating primarily to the XLII:

For coaches newer than 2004, what mileage are you getting? <snip, snip, snip>

The guys in the know over on the Detroit forum, www.dieselenginetrader.com, say that the EGR equipped S60's lose about 5% fuel mileage over the none EGR engines. 7.0 mpg becomes 6.65 mpg.

[SteveCooper]

Jon, my experience may be a bit different in that for the past few winters I would work with Parliament during the show season which afforded me the opportunity to drive a lot of different Prevosts, XL-II's and H's, and most between 04's and 08's. The converters included Parliament, Vantare, Legendary and Liberty. The thing I noticed more than anything else was, regardless of who did the conversion, was that the shell seemed to be built "cheaper". Lighter gauge stainless, more plastic pieces, less robust, all for the purpose of reducing overall weight, and therefore, improving or maintaining fuel mileage. None of these coaches had the performance and response that my 97 Royale has, and I don't really think they ride that much better. That being said, a 2004 H3-45 two slide, was the smoothest thing I've ever driven, but you didn't really feel that connected to the road.
I believe our vintage Prevosts are virtually bullet proof and I don't believe you can say that about the newer models. One man's opinion.

[jack14r]

I think that Steve is right on target,but the WOW factor of a new coach is in a league of its own,I am waiting to see how the D13 fares and I might be interested in a new coach if it doesn't have a Kohler generator.

[SteveCooper]

I think that Steve is right on target,but the WOW factor of a new coach is in a league of its own,I am waiting to see how the D13 fares and I might be interested in a new coach if it doesn't have a Kohler generator.


I would be the first to admit that the WOW factor is hard to beat. On the other hand, so is No Note!

[johnklopp]

Jon,
We all know how you can fix our coaches when they break. But very few know you are now a factory trained technician on the new coaches with multiplex, adaptive braking and other fancy stuff. Do your really want shinny without rivets or are you just itching to try your new talents?

[phorner]

Jon, forget all these naysayers...

Just ask yourself what will bring you greater happiness.... a new, state-of-the-art bus.... or numbers on a bank statement.

[treedoc]

Jon What Paul said. Numbers on a bank statment or a new coach? Which would be more enjoyable? nuf said Rick

[merle&louise]

Here's a thought: Would Prevost be willing to build an XL shell for you with no slides, 298 gallon fuel tank, etc. but with the multiplex, adaptive braking system and the rest of the new innovations?

That would make it an easy decision! Best of both worlds!

[garyde]

Hi Jon. I've replaced theSlide Seals 3 times since I bought the bus in 2006. twice in the bedroom, once in the living rm. Last one 2 years ago. Not enough time has passed to have a timeline on them. Prevost paid for all three replacements. I am the 3rd owner of this coach so I feel they have been good about standing behind their problems. Those issues I think have been resolved with a new Vendor. No isues with the stainless panels although I have heard fom Scott they are now glueing back only the edges, not replacing panels. No bearing issues yet.
I have the older Zip Dee, had a new one installed when I lost the old one in the Nevada Desert 3 years ago. No problems.
Aside from minor maintenance, a very reliable Coach.
Marathon has their own slides which may have fewer issues. My year coach, 2002 chasis, was the first generation of slides.
Liberty did have many XLII in the early 2000's with out slides or just one slide.
All windows are dual glazed, except the front.
Kevin is right about the windows, they are very large and lets the whole view in. I replaced one shade controller one year ago, about $275.00.
The Creston controller is nice, but I use the hand held remotes for the tv's.
Fuel mileage, 6.5 mpg at 65-70.

[Sid Tuls]

Hi Jon, I've had my bus for 3.5 years and have put on about 93,000 miles on it. I average about 6.3-6.5 miles per gallon and I drive at 65-70 most of the time. I would dare to say that Judy and I have used this coach alot with that said we put the slides out alot. The only problem I've had was a relay switch for my rear slide. I had that fixed in Nashville,Tenn a year ago. I have had to have 1 panel repaired and that was covered by prevost. I have my bus serviced at Mira Loma Prevost every 7,500 miles and haven't done anything to the front end that you mentioned. I have replaced 2 motors in my zip dee awning just 3 weeks ago. I dont use them very much but just like to have everything in working order. I do like the look of the awnings. We were in South Dakota last night and a guy left his awning out just to find oit on the otherside this morning:-(( not a nice site!! I love this lifestyle even if it cost alittle more. Thanks for all your input on this site.

[Sawbonz]

;););)

Jon's gonna buy a new one, Jon's gonna buy a new one!

My first post back from Europe. Even though I am a semi-newbie here, I didn't think it would be this one!

We pick our '04 up next week. Would love to show it to you sometime....probably October!

[aggies09]

Bonz, Post a picture of that puppy, I want to see what to look for going down the road. Put a pic in your signature or avatar.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jon's a long way from making a decision. I doubt if we are unique, but Di and I get a warm feeling when we go into our coach now. We still have a few things we would update, but we know it, we like it, we trust it, and it is a great coach.

But if we sell some land we own we would be in a position to go wild and crazy, and one of the things possible is to change coaches. We are thinking outside the box. We are a long way from a decision, but then we never ever, not in the 50 years we have been married have we not thought through our major decisions. And this is one we have a lot of research and thinking to do.

I'm trying to keep up with Winchester, the King and Truk and see if we can trade coaches as often as they do.

[SteveCooper]

To keep up with those three, that must be one hell of a piece of land!

[GDeen]

Wow!

..... Next I am going to read that Obama is proposing a 50% reduction inincome taxes to the highest earners...

[phorner]

Hey, I wouldn't be surprised, Gordon.

After all, 50% of folks pay no federal income tax at all!

[Sawbonz]

If all worked correctly, Tony, there should be a picture of the bus in my sig. Still looking for a pic for the avatar.