Chinese Tire Failure

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OK, I admit the title was unfair to Double Coin.

Here's the story.........As is normal, prior to a trip this last week I checked my tires and the inner driver's side drive tire had no pressure. It is a Double Coin that was installed 4 1/2 years ago and has operated flawlessly.

The problem was the sidewall had failed catastrophically. Unfortunately I did not get a picture, but the failure of the sidewall appears to have been caused by a heavy damage in the tread area. It appears I drove over something that almost tore a chunk of rubber from the tread. The size of the damage is between golf ball and baseball size and appears to have not only caused tread damage, but broke the steel belts.

The tire held air when I parked it after the last trip. As is my practice I supported the chassis on stands so the tires and wheels had minimal weight on them until I removed the stands prior to the trip. At that time it still held air. Two days later, the day prior to our trip I found the pressure was gone and I did not need to even put a gauge on it. The outer tire was clearly supporting all the axle weight and just looking at it you could see it was doing so, and when I reached into the inner tire it was loose on the wheel.

When I removed the wheel the sidewall immediately adjacent to the tread damage had ripped radially. It had a tear of about 4 inches.

I have no knowledge of hitting anything on the road, but can only conclude I damaged it on a loose piece of crushed stone such as I have adjacent to my concrete driveway. The stone sometimes gets knocked into my driveway and if I ran over it trying to back up the hill to the garage it seems to explain why the tire got damaged and I did not have a failure on the road.

This has no got me thinking about tire pressure sensors but I still have to get past some of the concerns I have about their use.

[rfoster]

An inner dual disentagrating at 62.5 mph can be exspensive! Glad it didn't happen to you.

Time to get sensors, they have saved my "A" three times!!!

[truk4u]

Sorry about the tire, glad it was in the garage and not on one of those great NY roads.

The Pressure Pro sensors are .6 oz and it's a great system. I'm ready to place your order, are you?:p

[phorner]

Jon,

Glad to hear that your tire failed in the garage and not on the highway!

I was also reluctant to install a TPMS because I always checked my tires before moving the bus. But I came to realize that it is just way too easy to pick something up that won't make itself known until I'm headed down the highway.

Might have been your day to buy that lottery ticket :D

[GDeen]

I'll throw in a vote for the Smartire system. The main advantage I see is that the sensors are mounted on the interior of the tire, on the wheel. With the temperature function and alarm, you also get another data point that could alert you to impending tire failure and a bearing or hub problem.

Obviously, the interior mount advantage also means they are more difficult to install and service if needed.

[Gary Carmichael]

i HAVE BEEN THINKING OF INSTALLING SENSORS, HAD SMART TIRE PREVIOUSLY AND LIKED THEM, WONDER ABOUT SOMETHING THAT SCREWS ON THE VALVE STEM COMING LOOSE OR PROBLEMS WITH EXTENSIONS LEAKING. ON THE OTHER HAND ALL THE TIRES HAVE TO COME OFF WITH SMART TIRE. SOUNDS LIKE THEY HAVE IMPROVED ON THE SMART TIRE SYSTEM NO LONGER REQUIRES METAL BAND AROUND THE HUB? JUST CAN"T MAKE MY MIND UP JUST YET BUT I DO BELIEVE IN SENSORS. Gary

[merle&louise]

OK, I admit the title was unfair to Double Coin.

Here's the story.........As is normal, prior to a trip this last week I checked my tires and the inner driver's side drive tire had no pressure. It is a Double Coin that was installed 4 1/2 years ago and has operated flawlessly.

The problem was the sidewall had failed catastrophically. Unfortunately I did not get a picture, but the failure of the sidewall appears to have been caused by a heavy damage in the tread area. It appears I drove over something that almost tore a chunk of rubber from the tread. The size of the damage is between golf ball and baseball size and appears to have not only caused tread damage, but broke the steel belts.

The tire held air when I parked it after the last trip. As is my practice I supported the chassis on stands so the tires and wheels had minimal weight on them until I removed the stands prior to the trip. At that time it still held air. Two days later, the day prior to our trip I found the pressure was gone and I did not need to even put a gauge on it. The outer tire was clearly supporting all the axle weight and just looking at it you could see it was doing so, and when I reached into the inner tire it was loose on the wheel.

When I removed the wheel the sidewall immediately adjacent to the tread damage had ripped radially. It had a tear of about 4 inches.

I have no knowledge of hitting anything on the road, but can only conclude I damaged it on a loose piece of crushed stone such as I have adjacent to my concrete driveway. The stone sometimes gets knocked into my driveway and if I ran over it trying to back up the hill to the garage it seems to explain why the tire got damaged and I did not have a failure on the road.

This has no got me thinking about tire pressure sensors but I still have to get past some of the concerns I have about their use.

Jon,

I feel that tire sensors are invaluable. I have the Smartire system(out of business presently) and I love it. You just never know when you can pick up a nail on the interstate. The sensors today show an increase in temp and a drop in pressure; also, there is an alarm when the pressure drops below a certain amount. You just can't beat a system like that IMO.

I guess the $64 question is: What brand of tire are you going to replace your Double Coin with?

I would go with another Double Coin, because the other 5 tires are doing great after 4 1/2 years. From a financial standpoint you are way ahead of the herd!

I change my rear tires every 5 years and my fronts every 3 years as do many of us.

I feel it is wrong to blame the tire because you hit something in the road.

Just my .03

[Terry J. Sturgis]

We use Double Coin tires on our small fleet of Volvo dump trucks. They hold up really well even though we are off road some of the time. Point being, any tire can fail even though Jon takes good care of his tires.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Out of expediency and because I was able to get a fleet price I replaced the bad tire with a BF Goodrich. I will not replace any more tires with that particular brand, not because it is a bad tire or I have anything against BFG, but because it has a sidewall with lots of grooves and outlined lettering. I want tires with a smooth sidewall and I do not want to advertise a manufacturer especially after paying big bucks for the tires. I'm looking for a smooth sidewall for ease of cleaning the tire and smaller lettering for the manufacturer's name. Since I do not have an immediate need I hope I am done buying tires for another year or two.

But getting a tire pressure sensor system is not something I can bring myself to do yet. I use the fill-through valve stem caps and ever since I have bought them I haven't added much more than a pound of air every six months, and likely when I do it is because temperatures have dropped. I really like and believe in the double seal those caps provide and the absolute ease in checking pressures and filling if needed with a long straight foot tire chuck.

I liked the concept of the inner sensor. But as has been posted they are out of business. I cannot convince myself using a tire pressure sensor that screws onto the valve stem and is only a single seal is a step forward. I have a concern that by giving up the double seal I now have (the Schrader valve is the primary seal and the fill-through valve stem cap provides a second seal) I am exposing myself to a greater chance of leakage out the stem.

But my concern also is prompted by my laziness. Now to fill tires I just stick the tire chuck on the valve stem cap and check pressure and fill all at once using my valve with a dial gauge.

To add pressure with any of the myriad of valve stem pressure sensors I have to remove them or install them so they are accessible in the case of the type that allow filling through the sensor. But my concerns also go beyond issues with the sensors and seals. I have first hand knowledge of a coach with tire pressure sensors that had 70 PSI in a steer axle tire that should have had at least 105 PSI. No warning was displayed. So my brain immediately thinks to the type of failures I have had on my coaches. Guess what? I have had more sensor failures than any other single mechanical failure. Coolant level sensors, transmission temperature sensors, turbo boost pressure sensors, etc. Being anal (hence the A-1 handle) I would hope the system alerted me of a problem while driving, but I know before a trip I would be manually checking tire pressures, not only to make sure they were OK, but to verify the TPS was working.

I cannot argue against the logic that having a system will one day save my ass, but until I can get past my concerns I am still not ready to commit to a system. On the road, at every stop just to get some walking and bending exercise I shoot the tire temps and it is amazing how much in line with each other they are and I almost believe that is as accurate as any TPS if the temps are taken as soon as the coach is stopped.

[Reagan Sirmons]

Jon,
As an interesting aside to this story and the discussion on Chinese tires, etc., yesterday an auto analyst for Mizuho Securities was in our offices and as usual I sat in on the presentation. One point this man made about the Japanese market was the apparrent reasonable outlook for Bridgestone ( a Japanese based entity). He said that the Bridgestone tires were returning to a 90% rubber content and the balance synthetic. During the presentation, I asked about Chinese production and their tires. He did not have sufficient specific knowledge of the tire business in China yet he did say China has over 100 separate tire companies competing against each other. I was amazed by the number and concerned as to the potential cost cutting procedures that might be used to gain market share. I am glad you found your problem before it found you out on the road.
In this light, if any one is interested in statistics that can blow you away, Mizuho predicts that China will build out office space within the next 15 years equal to TEN times New York City and India will construct space equal to EIGHT times NYC. Amazing.
Pres
Pres

[merle&louise]

Jon,

What do you think about a system like this:

http://www.tyron.com/

It really is more for protection and also the ability to get to a truck stop to have a flat tire replaced with a new one.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I didn't understand what the band was for and how it allows you to run flat. I see they have internal pressure sensors but did not see any specific to large truck type tires (tyres).

[mcirco]

Unless something has changed SMARTIRE is still in business although they have discontinued their old RV product. They were acquired by Bendix and Bendix now sells a system designed for Buses and Trucks. The system is available from Bendix distributers although most do not fully understand the system. I talked with my local bendix rep and he was able to supply part numbers and ordering information. The current emphasis is to market to companies who have bus and truck fleets since the smartire product was really only sold to the high end RV owner which represents a relatively small market. The current system is still using the same wheel sensor which monitors pressure and temperature. I am a firm believer that anything you can do to determine a tire is going down before something catostrophic occurs is money well spent. Checking tire temperatures when you stop is great but their is nothing else that can catch a problem that occurs while running down the road. FYI - I installed the system on mine last summer.

Miles Circo
2004 Country Coach 45' XLII D/S

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Miles, do you have a link for the Bendix Smart Tire system? The Smart Tire site shows the product discontinued and the only parts or service may be from former Smart Tire dealers.

[michaeldterry]

Miles, do you have a link for the Bendix Smart Tire system? The Smart Tire site shows the product discontinued and the only parts or service may be from former Smart Tire dealers.

Jon - try this: http://www.bendix.com/en/products/tpms/tpms_1.jsp

Google is your friend! :p

[flyu2there]

Maybe others have had good luck with tire pressure monitoring systems but I sure have not! I have nothing on this bus but in a previous incarnation I had the ones that mount on top of the schrader valves. They leaked, failed to report to the computer and were an overall nuisance plus that hideous box mounted to the dashboard that looked like a flour sack dress!
I have a big German sedan that has the sensors mounted on the inside of the wheel, I received a false alarm about once a month....big red triangle appears where the speedometer was with an exclamation point in the center and an annunciation of tire failure, stop vehicle immediately. I cannot count how many of those sensors have been changed, suffice to say they are victimized by moisture and rubber junk that floats around inside of the tire. Nitrogen helped a bit, reduced the incidence of false alarms, but still routinely received them......kind of like the cry wolf thing. I had the system disabled. The only smart system that I have seen is on my Mini, it uses the ABS wheel speed sensors to detect low tire pressure. Guess their engineers figured out that when a tire looses pressure it slows down fractionally....a light illuminates indicating tire pressure....and no moving parts! If I were to design one (which is about four steps above my pay grade) I would use a laser or infrared to monitor tire or wheel temperature that would turn on a single amber light when a delta temp. has been reached. Should be simple to design and once again, no moving parts....remember that dongle or sensor inside of the tire or on the wheel is a moving part.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Looks like John is singing from the same page I am. That single seal and the failure to report low pressure I previously mentioned is enough to concern me.

[truk4u]

I have not experienced false reports or air loss from the Pressure Pro. I don't understand the downside of having a full time monitoring of tire pressures, instant pressure checks at the touch of a button and an audible alarm at multiple pressure loss stages. All of this for the price of a Michelin tire.

So you stop at a rest area, use your temp gun and thump your tires. If you have the Pressure Pro, you don't thump anymore, you push the button and instantly know your pressures. Checking pressures often becomes part of your routine and how can you find fault with that. Checking tire pressures cold before a trip now takes 15 seconds. At the same time, you're monitoring your Toad tires.

A-1 would have instantly known his Chinese Maypop was losing air, whether is was sitting in the garage or driving because the Pressure Pro alarm would have been screaming.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Truk, There is no downside to having a properly functioning TPMS. But there is a downside to placing complete trust in a system that you are not using on a daily basis. I let my coach sit for long periods. I am not about to get ready for a trip and push a button and trust the tire pressure reading it gives me. I will do my normal pressure verification. That means a seal that worked before I removed the sensor to check pressures and verify the system functions correctly may leak when I replace it. Until I used the fill-though-cap seals I hated checking tire pressures because about once every three or four years the Schrader valve would fail to seat. I don't want to go back to a single seal.

As much as I would like to have a notice of a tire leaking while I was driving I cannot get past my primary concern.

I also tow two different vehicles with different tire pressures. So I will have sensors that have to be on two toads. Will I have to re-program the device every time I switch toads?

I want a TPMS, but so far I am not yet satisfied with the choices.

[rfoster]

Believe it or not I saw some Amish folks using electricity.

[merle&louise]

I had Newell install a Smartire system in Oct. 2008 - no problems - no false readings. Shortly after it was installed the large hose clamp band broke inside the tire; Smartire sent me a new one @ no charge. No problems since.

I only have it on the front tires so I still have to check my rear tires every morning when traveling. I check the front tires just to double check - they are always right on the money compared to the reading of the Smartire display.

A long time ago I had Tiremate; it was a system that was attached to each Schrader valve and it had 3 little watch batteries inside each sensor. It was not a good system; false alarms etc.

If I win the lottery, I would like to put Smartire on my rear tires and my TOAD.

[jack14r]

After almost 5 years of using pressure pro I can say that I have not had any false alarms or any kind of problem with the system,I do think that you must have the repeater to be sure the signal is transmitted to the receiver.I agree with Truk,Jon it is time to get a TPMS.

[rahangman]

I think we should rally up our in house engineer type, Mr John Klopp for his input as to reliability and/or construction

[johnbrowder]

Add me to the list of happy and impressed Pressure Pro users. I have had my system about 6 months with no pressure leak, no failure to communicate, and the great piece of ming that comes with watching the tire pressures inch up while driving, and return to the original pressure when stopped. I still pay attention to this, and will continue to look for alterations in this pattern.

I, too, think the display is awkward to deal with and look at. That is why I have just installed a Silverleaf VMS330. This unit displays a myriad of engine data on my Alpine display. It also displays Pressure Pro data and alarms. Seem great, and no new eyesores on the dash.

Just my $0.02 worth...

[flyu2there]

Looks like Jon and I are out numbered! I do have a couple of questions however I must preface by saying that any tire pressure monitoring system will not help in the case of a blow out. Anyone with a modicum of awareness will realize that a blow out will pretty much announce itself. So now we have a tire losing pressure going down the road, alarm goes off, then what? Immediately pull off the road and call your towing service....lets say in the midst of the Nevada desert in late July or perhaps in the middle lane on a rush hour freeway somewhere? So you didn't catch the low tire warning because of a monitoring system, you catch it at the next stop and yes, you may well have to buy a tire. I think I would rather be in a rest stop or pulling into a parking place than at mile marker 231 on I-80 hoping that the service truck will show up before night fall. So now, instead of a proper "pre-flight" one can push a button on the dash and read pressure, don't even have to go outside. Tire pressures are all good, course didn't notice the axle seal leaking like a sieve! And what about calibration? The airplane business cause us to use all manner of tools and even our lowly torque wrenches must be sent in annually for certification, prop balancers, boroscopes, scales....all have to visit Joe the Calibrator, one time a year for re-certification. I still like roll up windows, manual door locks and three on the tree:cool:

[johnbrowder]

Having TPMS does does cause me to skimp on pre-trip or mid-trip inspections, I just don't have to physically check the pressures. I see it as another tool and a potential early warning system. And I would pull over as soon as safely possible if I had a pressure warning underway.

[merle&louise]

I don't know about how Pressure Pro works, but Smartire has 2 little facts you need to be aware of.

When you first start up in the morning the Smartire needs to "wake up". It does this when you drive forward for a short way. This maybe (depending on where you are) a disadvantage; i.e. if you slept in a rest stop on the interstate highway. The problem being that you would be a half a mile down the road before you could use the SMartire to check your pressures. Of course you could still manually check your tires before you depart.

The second disadvantage is that you can not use Equal inside the tire.

That notwithstanding, the Smartire is a good "warning system" to notify the driver when a tire begins to lose air. It does an excellent job and is very reliable.