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Just Plain Jeff
11-12-2006, 08:55 AM
I thought I might just drop in and bring together some of the discussions we have had both on p-stuff and on this board much earlier on.

When we first were looking at coaches, a new coach buyer could find a quality new conversion for $600-800K. There were a ton of converters in the marketplace and it seemed that at least some of them were profitable. Nice coaches, given the technology and materials which were available.

Things have changed.

About a year ago, I was able to look at the build sheet on a new, one-off H3-45 double slide coach which was just finished by a converter. The hard dollar cost of the coach was just over $1 million. ($1,086,000.00) That signalled to me a number of things.

First, that coach had to bring at least $1.3-1.4 million to provide some profit to the converter, with overhead, marketing costs, sales commissions and the like.

That's a long way away from $600-800, even with inflation and the like.

Now with about half of the number of converters in the marketplace, the old idea of producing 200 new conversions a year seems to be on the wane. There are fewer people who are going to shell out (sorry) double the money for a new bus, in my opinion. Further, the cost of a new shell is almost double and will rise dramatically with the new Volvo engine and all the work the conversion companies will be doing to accomodate EGR requirements and to have a nose up on their competition.

For those of us Po' Folks who will likely never be new coach buyers, what this means is that the guys who are shedding their perhaps slightly used coach are going to a) be taking a bigger hit on depreciation and/or b) the acquisition of a newer previously owned coach will be somewhat higher than it is at the moment.

Further, there is now a greater concentration of active conversion companies in the market. We can all think about Angola, American Coach, Executive, Custom Coach, Royale, and so on which were either abandoned or taken in by other companies. That will mean, from my uninformed perspective, that there will be heightened competition in terms of features and marketing by those who are left in the business. It should also bode well for the new coach buyer. Each and every qualified sales lead, hopefully should result in much better customer service, support and attention to detail. If you sell a guy a $1.8 million camper, that customer is going to demand seamless support throughout the buying process. And should.

The larger question is with fewer new coaches being purchased, who will remain in this tightly competitive and marginally profitable business, given the up-front investment of capital and expertise required to make a good conversion. The days of, "let's bang out another coach," are likely over.

So, off I go, something to think about.

garyde
11-13-2006, 12:07 AM
In speaking with Liberty about their current Inventory. They can not make enough Coaches per year. They make about 28 Coaches a year and they are trying to figure out how to ramp it up to 35. Now , that is not many but the price tag is 1.7 to 1.9 Million. When several other Converters were having problems, these folks are trying to figure out how to expand.

Jon Wehrenberg
11-13-2006, 09:15 AM
If we disregard the fact that Liberty makes a great coach, it is impossible to ignore the fact that they are unmatched when it comes to supporting their coaches when they are out on the road. That alone takes a huge amount of their resources.

As a formerly employed manufacturer I can say with confidence that ramping up production is not real difficult if you are making widgets on a production line, but when the product is built by true craftsmen you not only have a staffing and training problem, but with this particular type of product you will have facility issues.

Sometimes the best thing a manufacturer can tell it's customers is you will just have to wait because we don't want to rush it. Delivering even a few coaches of lesser quality will have long term repercussions.

Joe Cannarozzi
02-14-2007, 11:13 PM
Here is a web site I found today.

I really like the clean interiors they do.

Check these out. What do you think? Anyone know anything about these guys?

www.superbus1.com

Gary & Peggy Stevens
02-14-2007, 11:36 PM
Here is a web site I found today.

I really like the clean interiors they do.

Check these out. What do you think? Anyone know anything about these guys?

www.superbus1.com

Hey Joe, Peggy and I saw the SuperBus coach they brought to the Tampa RV Supershow. It was very nice.

Their "Niche" market is:

They have the Exclusive Purchase Rights to all of the 40' Prevost Shells that are produced by Prevost. I know, you didn't think they were still producing any 40' shells, but they are, and SuperBus I guess has the rights to purchase all of them. Nice Market, if you are interested in a 40' Prevost.

The one we saw at Tampa was very nice, still priced around $1M, but in the scheme of things, I guess that is cheap for a NEW 40' Prevost. Here is another website for you to look at if you are interested, ?

http://www.heritagecoachsales.com/

Gary S.

TedK
09-19-2007, 06:46 PM
I know where you can get a new H3-45 for under a million.

Petervs
09-19-2007, 07:42 PM
Well guys, it is always about supply and demand. Today you would expect seamless support when buying a $1,500,000 coach; but a few years ago you would have expected seamless support for a $995,000 coach and back in 1994, when my coach had the unbelievable sticker price of $745,000 anyone would have expected perfect factory support too.

There is plenty of money being spent. Just go check out the $1MM-$3MM-$100MM yacht marketplace. One thing rings true there and in coaches though: It has to be quality or there will be no repeat business.

And don't forget the new plastic coaches keep going up in price too. In 2001 a brand new top of the line Country Coach went out the door for about $300k. Today's version is more like $600k. For my money you get a much better value in a used Prevost than a new plastic anything, and amazingly there are people who spend more for a used plastic than a used Prevost. We should be pleased that we have the opportunity to enjoy the quality for the measly little we spend!

Just Plain Jeff
09-19-2007, 08:20 PM
And don't forget the new plastic coaches keep going up in price too. In 2001 a brand new top of the line Country Coach went out the door for about $300k. Today's version is more like $600k. For my money you get a much better value in a used Prevost than a new plastic anything, and amazingly there are people who spend more for a used plastic than a used Prevost. We should be pleased that we have the opportunity to enjoy the quality for the measly little we spend!


Doesn't this posting speak volumes!

As a prowler around various lots, the base level MSRP of most plastic diesel pushers is $295. You can find a nice Prevost coach for that kind of money.

Here's a personal experience: We were parked with the ol' 89 Angola and a guy in a new Monaco Executive, which at that time sold for about $500K, came up to me and said, "Prevost, huh? Someday I'll have one like yours, but for now I have to settle for this."

There is not a high level of awareness among some sectors of the RV industry what a terrific buy a preowned Prevost can be. But that's why we're here and on p-stuff; to help people get out the word.

Thanks so much for bringing up this important topic.

garyde
09-19-2007, 08:38 PM
Hi Jeff. I have to think the Prevost is too much Coach for most people aside from the implied costs. Also, People tend to like to buy new with all of the new features. It takes a rare bird to see the value in a used Prevost.

phorner
09-19-2007, 08:56 PM
You guys are exactly right. Two years ago, I figured that I was losing more in depreciation on my Monaco/Beaver than a real nice used bus would cost outright.

There are also a number of my friends that believe that "buying new" avoids problems, having failed to realize that no matter what you buy, the first year or two is spent resolving issues, most minor but some can be major.

We could not be happier with our "old" Prevost. I still wander around it in amazement muttering wow....

Just Plain Jeff
09-19-2007, 08:56 PM
Yup, you ar right....except I think we would say it takes a 'smart' bird to figure out the system.

Good stuff.

lewpopp
09-19-2007, 11:09 PM
Paul, I understand it is time to go to Home Depot for more polishing rags. I have heard you are working on it daily . Getting anything else done?

phorner
09-20-2007, 09:38 AM
Ya caught me, Lew....

Every time it rains more than a couple of drops, I feel compelled to wipe down the stainless... still trying to perfect a method of actually USING the bay doors without leaving finger prints... hey, maybe a pair of micro fiber gloves kept by the entry door???

Any way, it's been a wonderful challenge keeping this baby in the condition that befits it's status of being your neighbor.

Gotta go... thought I heard a rain drop