VOLVO D 13 Engine

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

This information came from Millinieum as I believe they were the first convertor to get the new power plant in one of their buss's ?

Looks like a very nice power plant, and I am sure they will turn it into a beautiful new bus.

http://www.millenniumluxurycoachesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/VolvoD13Engine.pdf

Gary S.

[charlesebrownjr]

I was in Fort Worth at Prevost and they had one of the passenger buses in for repair. The mechanic told me they were having trouble with an oil leak on the new engine. To fix the leak, everything on the left side of the engine has to be removed. All coolers and radiators, fan Assembly, everything from the block out. There was a pile of stuff on the floor about the size of my Yukon XL. Not looking good.

[Jerry Winchester]

Spongebob,

You are gonna have to take those glasses off. Let's think about this for a second: two of the three most arguably successful engine builders in diesel engine history, Caterpiller and Detroit Diesel, quit building automotive diesel engines this past year. Wanna guess why?

It's not because Volvo builds a prettier engine. This emissions issue is so ill-conceived that we have had to install re-gen override on our tractor engines that power ancillary equipment so that the engine doesn't go into a decreased power regime while we are doing service work with it. In your seated coach, maybe it slows down from 70 to 68mph for 5 minutes. In our coiled tubing unit, it decreases the HP available at the tubing injector, thus effecting the extraction rate thus effecting the quality of the job if we can't simultaniously adjust the fluid and nitrogen injection rates / ratios while this unexpected EPA process takes over. Customer gets pissed and I get to no-charge him $800k

Cat wishes they had never seen these re-gen engines and so do we. So when someone has been building diesel engines since 1931 and pulls the plug on this particular engine variety.......

[Mark3101]

Hey Jerry, I thought that DD was still building the DD15 for trucks (Freightliner / Mercedes) and that just the 60 series went away. Did they quit altogether? I knew that Cat was done with the exception of building blocks for Navistar for the Maxxforce 15L that they will roll out this year with their own top end. Interestingly, Navistar is NOT using urea for meeting the EPA's retarded limits...they are doing it all with EGR.

I think that Cat wished it was still about 1987. They still built wonderful engines back then, but as the EPA stuck it's nose into diesels more and more, they went down hill fast.

[Mark3101]

This information came from Millinieum as I believe they were the first convertor to get the new power plant in one of their buss's ?

Looks like a very nice power plant, and I am sure they will turn it into a beautiful new bus.

http://www.millenniumluxurycoachesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/VolvoD13Engine.pdf

Gary S.

The email I got from Millennium said that the Volvo had "1,000" more ft.lbs of torque. I think they meant 100...<g> Still impressive to get 1750 out of a 13L engine, but I wonder how longevity will be impacted.

[Jerry Winchester]

Mark,

The DD15 is an MTU engine built by Mercedes but the Series 60 went away because of the 2010 emissions, so the reality is even the high horsepower industrial engines have been MTU engines for a good long time or ever since DD quit building 149's or EMD engines.

[Mark3101]

Mark,

The DD15 is an MTU engine built by Mercedes but the Series 60 went away because of the 2010 emissions, so the reality is even the high horsepower industrial engines have been MTU engines for a good long time or ever since DD quit building 149's or EMD engines.

I knew the 60 series was killed because of the 2010 EPA crap, but I didn't know about MTU's involvement in the DD15. The choices are dwindling in engines these days...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is the 1970's all over again. The cars of the 70's were strangled by add-on emissions gadgets and gizmos because technology hadn't caught up with the pie in the sky legislation. That was when horsepower went way down (165 for a Corvette), fuel consumption went way up, and people just started stripping the air pumps and catalytic converters off their cars to try to improve things.

Here we go again, only this time it is diesel technology that has to develop to meet the standards except for one problem. That technology has been highly refined and developed so anticipate a decade or more of crappy engines and performance while the engine manufacturers try to redevelop engines.

I feel sorry for the truckers and charter companies, but even sorrier for us because in the end we will pay dearly for this in the form of higher costs for everything.

BTW, Cat has not left the market, they are just supplying engines for their new line of on road trucks, just like M-B is doing.

[Loc]

Mark,

I saw the Millennium newsletter yesterday and promptly called them to tell them the 1,000 more of lbs/feet of torque was wrong it was more like 100. I told them that the real bus guys would catch that in a second.

Loc

[GDeen]

Did you tell'm the real bus guys want real motors not Vulvas?

[Mark3101]

BTW, Cat has not left the market, they are just supplying engines for their new line of on road trucks, just like M-B is doing.

Hmm...I will have to talk to my old Cat rep again about this. He indicated that the Cat branded truck was not for road use, but job site stuff. Who knows, that has probably changed as well.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

According to the Cat web site they are starting out with trucks that seem aimed at specific applications such as dump trucks or garbage trucks, but they make it clear they will have the full range.

They have partnered with Navistar who is building the Cat trucks alongside their regular Navistar production.

I wonder if there is much room for a new truck given that the industry is and has been hurting. Used truck prices are absolutely in the toilet (like bus prices) because so many operators have quit the business and the fleets seem to have contracted to match the drop in demand.

[Mark3101]

According to the Cat web site they are starting out with trucks that seem aimed at specific applications such as dump trucks or garbage trucks, but they make it clear they will have the full range.

They have partnered with Navistar who is building the Cat trucks alongside their regular Navistar production.

I wonder if there is much room for a new truck given that the industry is and has been hurting. Used truck prices are absolutely in the toilet (like bus prices) because so many operators have quit the business and the fleets seem to have contracted to match the drop in demand.

I wonder if the partnership with Navistar is getting them a top end for EPA certification? May be how they are doing it.

In any event, I hope the Volvo engines going into Prevost buses are better than the ones they had in trucks awhile back. I heard horror stories about them.

[Kenneth Brewer]

I wonder if the partnership with Navistar is getting them a top end for EPA certification? May be how they are doing it.

In any event, I hope the Volvo engines going into Prevost buses are better than the ones they had in trucks awhile back. I heard horror stories about them.

I have too. The fellow in the next storage stall here has a 45+ (yes, I know) foot truck/RV conversion with rear toy garage (bikes and tools), with the Volvo engine, and has had troubles with the injectors - but Volvo has evidently made good, more than once on this, and I think took care of the towing expenses. I just wish the US would compete as it should to take or retake the lead and keep it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

What I wish was our legislators would pass laws that reflect reality.

As newer buses hit the market I believe we will begin to have horror stories posted here. If we were to read the various forums that truckers participate in we would read of the grief they are encountering because the legislation was passed to require that engines meet certain standards before the technology was available.

They are doing the same thing with electric cars and hybrids with our money used to provide cash back to buyers. I wonder if the people who buy these vehicles with the expectation of saving the planet have come to realize the limited range and the short battery life and the expense associated with battery replacement. We could never use an electrical vehicle despite being only 8 miles from the center of Knoxville because we gang up errands and make a day of it. We would have to always be ready to run back home when the remaining energy demanded it rather than when we were done with our errands. Further, if we wanted to go for an even modest distance we would need to plan on an overnight stay so the car could recharge. Yet the powers that be want to have us all driving pollution free cars. I'm waiting for someone to actually prove the polution free ("zero emissions") cars actually do have a cost to the environment

I am sure this legislation makes our congress critters feel good and I am sure it gets them votes from those out to save the planet, but I am concerned nobody is pointing out the true costs associated with what is happening because that would be as bad a crime as speaking out against motherhood.

[GDeen]

What I wish was our legislators would pass laws that reflect reality.

As newer buses hit the market I believe we will begin to have horror stories posted here. If we were to read the various forums that truckers participate in we would read of the grief they are encountering because the legislation was passed to require that engines meet certain standards before the technology was available.

They are doing the same thing with electric cars and hybrids with our money used to provide cash back to buyers. I wonder if the people who buy these vehicles with the expectation of saving the planet have come to realize the limited range and the short battery life and the expense associated with battery replacement. We could never use an electrical vehicle despite being only 8 miles from the center of Knoxville because we gang up errands and make a day of it. We would have to always be ready to run back home when the remaining energy demanded it rather than when we were done with our errands. Further, if we wanted to go for an even modest distance we would need to plan on an overnight stay so the car could recharge. Yet the powers that be want to have us all driving pollution free cars. I'm waiting for someone to actually prove the polution free ("zero emissions") cars actually do have a cost to the environment

I am sure this legislation makes our congress critters feel good and I am sure it gets them votes from those out to save the planet, but I am concerned nobody is pointing out the true costs associated with what is happening because that would be as bad a crime as speaking out against motherhood.

Electric power as a pollution free alternative is the biggest fallacy of all of this. Gotta generate that electricity somehow, and much of it is by burning coal.

[Jerry Winchester]

Oh this just keeps getting better. We sent a snubbing unit out of the US to South America for a job. We finish the job and guess what? We can't bring the unit home because it doesn't meet the new EPA regs. It was grandfathered while it was here, but when we took it out, we had to remove the engine to reimported it. Now comes the good part. Because it's grandfathered here, we can slap a 6V-92TA back in the power pack and go back to work.

We had a fire pump that had a 12V-92TA that the State of Wyoming didn't want us to use to put out a 5000 bbl per day oil well fire out because it didn't meet Tier 3 regulations. The fact that there were no oil well firefighting pumps IN THE WORLD that met that specification didn't deter them.

[charlesebrownjr]

This is a prime example why our gov doesn't work and for the state of WY, the pollution from a well fire being fed by 5000 lbs a day well or what ever the choke has it restricted to has to be a KAZILLION times more polluting than a damn engine being run for a short period of time. Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GDeen]

This is the future since the EPA became judge and jury on global warming, greenhouse gases and health hazards. They can go on for years now with unfettered power to do what they want under the guise of self empowered public health concerns. By the time the courts and legislation catch up, the damage will be done - which is the exact plan.

[garyde]

Too many un elected self important beurocrats runnin amok.

[dmatz]

At NJ Prevo for some maintenance and saw a new xl bus with the Volvo engine. Tech said he liked the new set up, the change in the gear box for the fan he said was well needed and much better. Apparently the last design has trouble dispersing the heat causing seal leaks. Something to keep an eye on

[Mark3101]

I was at Prevost TN last week and there was one with the entire driver's side stripped down to fix an oil leak. Common problem that an updated gasket / seal is meant to fix. I have heard that performance is good, but I wonder about longevity vs. the 60 Series it replaces. I think I read that the Volvo with all the extra EPA required crap also adds about 600 pounds. Remember, there is no replacement for displacement.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Mark is right about Prevost having a fix for the seal leak. In our classes last week we learned a little about the Volvo engine and the information came from guys with a service background so I tend to think it is true. Volvo approaches the EPA standards a little differently from the others (such as Detroit) and they claimed mileage is back up where it was prior to being strangled with EGR. Volvo introduces less exhaust gas into the intake and as a result mileage has climbed. The engine also has a different torque curve from the Detroit, producing maximum torque early in the rev range and holding it longer at the maximum before it drops off. The Detroit develops maximum torque later, it peaks and drops off instead of being a nearly flat curve like the Volvo.

The significance is the Volvo is run at a lower RPM allowing it to run in high gear sooner which translates into better fuel economy. We worked near the Volvo engine when it was running and it is definitely a very quiet engine. I hope it proves to be as reliable as the Detroits have been.

[travelite]

You guys are all ready inhaling those rich Volvo exhaust vapors. A fair comparison would be to the DD15. I think DD/MTU have learned their lessons regarding the required back pressure to make EGR work. Their solution is the compound turbo which scavenges even more exhaust heat delivering power directly to the crank. The idea of torque rise and low rpm operation to deliver fuel mileage seems common to all the major manufacturers. What is Volvo doing that is necessarily different? Any brake specific fuel consumption (bsfc) figures available to compare the manufactures?

[Mark3101]

Mark is right about Prevost having a fix for the seal leak. In our classes last week we learned a little about the Volvo engine and the information came from guys with a service background so I tend to think it is true. Volvo approaches the EPA standards a little differently from the others (such as Detroit) and they claimed mileage is back up where it was prior to being strangled with EGR. Volvo introduces less exhaust gas into the intake and as a result mileage has climbed. The engine also has a different torque curve from the Detroit, producing maximum torque early in the rev range and holding it longer at the maximum before it drops off. The Detroit develops maximum torque later, it peaks and drops off instead of being a nearly flat curve like the Volvo.

The significance is the Volvo is run at a lower RPM allowing it to run in high gear sooner which translates into better fuel economy. We worked near the Volvo engine when it was running and it is definitely a very quiet engine. I hope it proves to be as reliable as the Detroits have been.

While I was talking with Bill Jensen at Prevost TN, he indicated that Prevost had to really study the proper gearing as to make sure that there was enough RPM to run the fan fast enough to get proper cooling. There is no ram air effect like in a truck, so cooling is a major concern for them. I don't know where the Volvo engine RPM runs at say 65 MPH in a Prevost compared to a truck. I also hope that the Volvo will be reliable and live as long as the Detroit. Time will tell.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You guys are all ready inhaling those rich Volvo exhaust vapors. A fair comparison would be to the DD15. I think DD/MTU have learned their lessons regarding the required back pressure to make EGR work. Their solution is the compound turbo which scavenges even more exhaust heat delivering power directly to the crank. The idea of torque rise and low rpm operation to deliver fuel mileage seems common to all the major manufacturers. What is Volvo doing that is necessarily different? Any brake specific fuel consumption (bsfc) figures available to compare the manufactures?

David,

There are apparently enough proprietary pieces of technology employed that apart from the obvious differences that information does not seem available. I wish it was because it would tell who is winning the battle between emissions and mileage.

If you will recall Detroit told Prevost to find another engine manufacturer, a position they reversed but not before Prevost committed to the Volvo. It was revealed the Cummins was also considered as a replacement for the Detroit but the study on that was cut short. Obviously Volvo wanted its engines in the Prevost. Which engine is going to be more durable, get the best mileage, have the lowest operating costs, etc. is going to be determined by the trucking industry. The entire development of emissions systems sounds like it is still being tweaked and with each year I expect the engines will become better. But until someone emerges as a clear choice and the data from the trucking industry becomes known I doubt if any manufacturer will be making that type of information available because so much of fuel economy and durability is directly related to gearing, loads, speeds, etc.