WATER HEATER II

[Jon Wehrenberg]

After reading of Paul's water heater replacement, and knowing of others in the not too distant past I decided to replace mine.

As every one of us knows nothing ever fails on our coaches when it is in the garage. All failures occur while we are traveling and trying to enjoy our coaches. My water heater is the original and at 15 years of age (105 in dog years) it owes me nothing. My motives are simple. I want to replace it before it fails. I want to deal with the excessive water temps as a result of heating from engine coolant while we drive, I want the resistance to corrosion a stainless steel tank can provide, and I want a hot water heater with improved efficiency. This HW tank is rated at 150 PSI and has a 300 PSI test pressure. It comes with a 150 PSI heat and pressure valve, unlike the special 75 PSI valve required for the Raritan.

This is what I chose: http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-13.pdf

It is not a direct replacement for the Raritan HW tank now installed so a simple remove and replace project is not going to be possible. All connections, cold water, hot water, engine coolant and overflow will all have to be modified or remade. The unit is taller by about 4" so all the plumbing now located above the existing tank has to be relocated requiring additional new or modified plumbing. The thermostatic control will be modified to not only control the operation of the electric heating element, but it will also be used to control or regulate the flow of engine coolant as a heat source also. That will eliminate the excessively hot water temperatures when driving.

The process is started and as it goes along I will take and post pictures for all the Liberty owners to see and understand what is involved if they want to make the change from a Raritan.

The first steps are studying to see the scope of this project. I know I have to make more room above the tank. I have to install a solenoid valve in the engine coolant line to the tank as part of the system to control water temperatures when driving. I have to make some changes to the wiring of the electric heater at the thermostat so I can use 24 volts to control the solenoid valve and the electric heater (via a relay). So the valve is ordered and soon I will locate and identify a relay suitable to control the heating element.

The water tank is draining and as soon as I get a chance I am going to pull it from the coach.

Pictures of the project will follow over the next week or two or three.

[truk4u]

Good stuff, can't wait to see the pictures of stainless work in progress.

[phorner]

Jon,

Your proposed replacement heater looks great. This is a really interesting project as it may pave the way for others looking for a viable replacement for the Raritan heater. I have been happy with the performance of the Raritan heater, but your replacement heater looks even better.

Those 4 inches above the heater may be tough to get. If yours is plumbed similar to mine, I ended up having to remove/replace 2 waste lines to get my tank out and there was plenty of plumbing above the tank that I didn't want to disturb if at all possible.

As it turned out on my project, one of the hardest parts was stopping a persistent leak at the fresh water tank drain valve. I finally ended up putting in a new valve.... and had to do that twice, before the final job was completely leak-free.

I'm looking forward to seeing the pix....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I admit I am not looking forward to moving the plumbing over the tank out of the way, but I see no alternative. Ditto on the waste line. I haven't gotten into it deeply yet, but I think a couple of no-hub fittings will make removal and replacement of that easy. It's the plumbing over the tank that looks like work.

[Mark3101]

Jon: I think you will be happy with the HTP heater. At home, I have their Munchkin boiler, Superstor indirect hot water heater, and a 20 gal buffer tank for the system. Works great and the tanks are insulated very well.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It's raining today, so I won't be spreading mulch or working in the garden so today's the day I bite the bullet and change out the water heater.

Pulling the tank on this bus isn't the piece of cake it was on the other bus. It used to take be 20 minutes to pull the tank on the forst bus, but this bus has trim panels. I always think converters use the panels so nobody can see what it looks like.

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Instead of spending the morning working on the inside fo the bay I spent the morning removing the trim panels and working to get the existing HW heater loose and out of where it was installed.

The time spent getting to where I was as shown in the second photo was 4 hours, of which 1 1/2 were spent getting the tank out. Now that I know the tricks I can cut the time down to about an hour. Ditto on what it took to get out the HW tank. Most of that time was dedicated to moving a lot of stuff out of the way such as cables, piping, disconnecting the wires, etc. as well as scoping out how extensive I am going to make this project.

[truk4u]

Jon,

On mine, it had an access panel in the front of the bay to the fuel tank. Couldn't tell if you had one, but it was a good opportunity to stick your nose in there and make sure everything is good.

What am I thinking, I know you already did that!:p

[garyde]

Hi Jon. I have a few electrical issues where I need to get to the cable trough in that bay. I need to r &r both tanks to do this. If you have some helpful information, please let me know. Troy at Liberty said it was a big job.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Left unsaid in my previous post is what I have encountered that is impacting the installation of the newer tank. At the top rear left hand corner of the water bay is a box, or trough that Gary mentions. That combined with the piping that is too low for clearance on the new taller HW heater is an issue that needs to be solved today.

As to the box or trough I removed the screws at the bottom and pried on the 1/4" thick plywood bottom panel to see what exactly is in the area of the box that will interfere with the installation. The answer is nothing. I honestly have no clue what the purpose of the box is so I have cut and sawed and chiseled that portion of the box out of the way. There is a pair of cables that runs through it, side to side from the fresh water side of the bus to the waste tank side, but I haven't taken the time to determine what they are. They are located high against the ceiling so nothing I am doing affects them. What is in the area of the trough or box is the piping for the engine coolant which goes to the HW tank and the bay heater. That piping however is up against the ceiling of the bay also.

I will take a photo of the area for Gary and post it later. I cannot imagine why any access to the area is required.

My unresolved problem is the location of the piping and valves which will carry coolant into and out of the HW tank. I am 1/2" shy of having the required height and I have done everything I need to shorten the distance from the valves to the bottom of the piping that has to cross the top of the water heater. To reposition the valves is going to be a task of monumental proportions since to do so I will need to drain the cooling system in that loop. As simple as that sounds I am going to consider every possible alternative, including grooving the top and insulation on the top of the HW tank to get the clearance. That will be the extreme approach and I am not ruling it out. A second possibility is to abandon those valves and Tee off of the valves controlling the flow to the bay heat exchanger and use only that portion of the loop for both the HW heater and the bay heat exchanger.

I will also spend a lot of time today considering the fittings I will be using because the removal was unnecessarily cumbersome due to the use of unions that were a pain to access and will be worse with the reinstallation trying to get them leak free. I am also not sure I want to retain the current electric bay heater which is a heat gun wired into a thermostatic circuit. I have had great success when it got well below zero using a small cube heater aimed directly at the mass of water in the fresh water holding tank, using that mass as a great big heat sink.

I am also not yet clear on how I want to install and set up the controls to regulate the HW heater temp when the heat is provided by engine coolant. So today is going to be a slow day in the process because I am now also focussed on making the installation one in which HW heater removal will be quick and easy. Essentially I am looking at this from a set of eyes that is focussed on repair and maintenance, and not from a manufacturer's perspective. I am presuming during manufacturing the coach is assembled from the inner components and systems outward, but to gain access to repair or replace the way mine was set up I have to reverse that process. I don't know how long it took to replace Paul's HW tank, but one of my goals will be to be able to do any repairs on the HW heater, such as the element or thermostat without tearing the bay apart, and if the HW heater ever does need replacement to make access and removal as easy as possible.

Liberty has in my opinion done an excellent job of getting a lot of components in a very small space and making every one of them serviceable. There is nothing I see that is complex, but I am trying to make future service a little easier, adding some features, changing to a larger HW heater, and modifying some of what exists to suit my purposes. When I am done I will know if my changes were worth the effort, or if replacing the HW heater with the same one and not making my planned modifications would have been the best approach.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

This is a photo of the trough or box at the top of my water heater compartment.

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I have crudely cut or broken away the "box" exposing what is in there out of sight. You can see by the faint discoloration on the rear wall the outline of the box as it existed before I wrecked it and there was nothing in there. In the area up above it is the coolant piping for the by heater and the HW heater.

Above the gray tubing, not visible is where there is some wiring running parallel to the water tubing which happens to be the tubing from the fill on the port side bay.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Today was a good day with a lot of progress. The progress is marginally visible, but I have made some huge gains.

In the previous photos you will note I wrecked a wooden "box" that would have prevented me from getting the new heater in place. I have not repaired or rebuilt that area yet so it looks lousy, but at least that is not going to prevent the installation.

I stewed about the valves interfering and decided to abandon them. I have closed them, and used the torch to remove the portion of the union that was attached and find the tank will slide into place easily.

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The first photo shows I am not dealing with a lot of head room, but I can easily slide it in place. It also shows my new bay heater to replace the industrial heat gun.

In the second photo it shows a wider view of the HW heater in place. I still need to make sure the plumbing drains will not interfere, I need to attach the hold down straps, and I need to redo the "box" that had to be destroyed to get the heater in place, but all in all there are no issues now, and I am just doing the detail work to complete the installation.

In the bottom photo, hard to see is the roughed in plumbing that will attach to the water heater drain piping. I have a few copper fittings to buy tomorrow, but I have all of the piping done with the exception of the union at the drain pipe which will be done tomorrow.

I will be using "Y" fittings to carry the coolant flow to the HW heater from the bay heater valves. By doing the installation in that way the HW heater slides easily into place and if I ever have to remove it the use of water heater hose to carry the engine coolant (as it does to the Webasto heaters) will make it easy.

I have made changes of minor nature that should make the bay more user friendly. I have the same wattage heater, but the cube heater allows me to use a low heat setting or a 1500 watt high heat setting. If I ever have to protect the water bay from freezing (perish the thought) it is aimed directly at the holding tank where the mass of the water will heat up making temperature swings due to excessive cold unlikely. Relocating the heater provides an easier access to valves for the water heater and if I should ever have to replace the lift struts I will not have to take apart half the bay to do it.

The heater will use the Liberty installed thermostatic control.

I have also added another shut off valve to the back up Shurflo pump. That will make removal and servicing easier. I should have done that when I installed the pump.

I am going to relocate one of the lights on the bay ceiling to put more light into the area adjacent to the holding tank. There is no benefit to having light shine on the top of the tank.

I am modifying the drain for the water tank to make the use of a hose possible. This will keep my garage floor drier than jury rigging a drain hose to flow the water to the floor drain. I never get it right because there is no way to position or hang a hose now. I santize the tank at least twice a year and that should make it easier to drain and flush the tank.

I'm hoping by tomorrow I have the HW heater tank fittings in place and the tank installed. I am postponing the installation of the engine coolant solenoid valve and the controls until after our next trip. I have a couple of ways I am thinking of doing this and I want to make sure I have thought of all possible conditions. With any luck and availability of the needed parts and materials I'll be done and back working on the garden by Monday.

[truk4u]

So the bottom line, is you have removed the water heater coolant loop from the engine and now the heater will be heated by coolant from the Webasto via the bay heat exchanger loop. Did I get that right? If so, that's a great idea as long as you don't want/need the engine heating the hot water and in my opinion, I could do without that deal anyway. The hot water always gets hot pretty quick from either the Webasto or the electric element.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

No, the bay heat exchanger and the HW heater coolant loop are one and the same. They are both teed off the same supply line. All I am doing is teeing them off ahead of the bay heat exchanger, which may compromise the coolant flow to each slightly. If I feel at some point that there is insufficient coolant flow as a result I can reconnect the HW heater at its original connection point at the valves I am abandoning, but to do that I have to shut off and drain a portion of the cooling system loop because I will have a bunch of sweat soldering to do.

The coolant loop that goes to the water bay comes from a line that originates at the water pump on the engine. It goes forward into the top of the waste bay, makes a 90 degree turn to the right going across the coach to the top rear of the water bay where it splits. One leg goes into the abandoned valves, the other leg goes to the valves for the bay heat exchanger. All I will do is tap into the coolant line downstream from the bay heat exchanger valves. The return line traces the same path back and connects into the coolant loop return near the transmission heat exchanger.

[truk4u]

That clears it up for me. At your age, are you still able to get out of bed each morning after living in the plumbing bay the previous day or does Di have to bring in the Bobcat and hike your sorry butt off the rack?

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon you say the cube heater is pointed towards the fresh water tank, is the tank metal or plastic? Is the thermostat that controls this cube heater just a household thermostat in a electrical box with an outlet? I would like to add a electrical heater to my water bay, right now I have to use the Webasto to warm the bay.

My Beaver has the square RV heaters, they have a wire coming out of the thermostat that can be connected to solenoid to open and close the coolant lines. I never thought they worked because the water was alway too hot, but on this trip to the Mini rally in Indio I notice that the water was just as hot just using the electrical elements. I think H2O HTR are turned up so high that you only need to use a little Hot H2O to get a comfortable shower, thus saving hot H2O.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The cube heater is controlled via the thermostat Liberty installed for use with the commercial heat gun. The cube heater also has a thermostat that I set to the highest setting, and a control to regulate full wattage (1400) or i/2 wattage. It points to a stainless steel fresh water tank.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That clears it up for me. At your age, are you still able to get out of bed each morning after living in the plumbing bay the previous day or does Di have to bring in the Bobcat and hike your sorry butt off the rack?

While you are still in your PJ's at noon I am either spreading mulch on the hillside, tilling in the garden or splitting firewood for next year. I work on the bus to rest up. I need to know how you know if you are resting or not because I haven't seen you work?

[rfoster]

whew, That's harsh, way harsh.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

When we were parked next to the sheepherder in FL we were instructed not to make any noise before noon. He needs his beauty sleep.

So I didn't make any noise, but I got the dogs parked on the other side of him to start barking at 7:30.

[truk4u]

Don't force me to make the sewer thing public!:p:rolleyes:;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tonight I am going to be hoping I am assembling a leak free bay.

Real progress was made this morning. The water heater was "dressed" to the extent possible before installation.

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The photo above shows the heater with all the piping I could assemble onto it and that is how it was when I slid it into place. The cold water supply that looks skewed was left that way for clearance. When it was in place I gave it a few more degrees of tightening to line up with the supply line.

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With the HW heater in place I connected the cold water and hot water lines and at the bottom a union for the HW heater drain line. With the tank oriented as it is, and flexible supply and return lines for the engine coolant as well as a flexible line for the relief valve discharge the tank is going to be easy to remove and replace. But by removing the original bay heater and using a cube heater in a different location I can now get my hands on everything in the bay for service without removing anything. Both pumps are accessible and can be removed independent of each other. I can access the HW tank heater and thermostat, I can access and service the relief valve.

Lee will be happy to hear I left the check valve in place. No reason other than it was there and it hasn't posed a problem.

Tomorrow I have to get a few feet of coolant hose to complete the connections that will be above the holding tank and then the tank goes in and I fill and check the system. I will be repeating no leaks, no leaks, no leaks all night long.

What may not appear to be substantial change is in fact numerous minor changes that should justify the effort. I have added shut off valves so everything in the system can be isolated and removed or serviced if required. I can pull the coolant and overflow hoses out of the way easily such as to access the heater or thermostat. I modified the waste plumbing so it easily is moved out of the way if I need to slide the HW tank out, something I have no intention of ever doing again because of the stainless steel construction.

What I cannot justify is going to the extra trouble of changing from a Raritan unless the owner intends to keep the bus for a long time. If I made none of the changes and just swapped one Raritan for another I would have saved hours of work, but I can only imagine the words Paul and Tom used when they put the new Raritan heater in place and then tried to line up three unions and two compression fittings. They were a pain getting the tank to move when pulling it out. I can only imagine the effort to slide the new one in and line everything up. This one slid easily in place and I only had to align the bottom union.

No leaks, no leaks, no leaks, no leaks...........

If there are no leaks I will post it tomorrow. If there are leaks I will be busy beating myself up.

[LNDYCHT]

Lee will be happy to hear I left the check valve in place. No reason other than it was there and it hasn't posed a problem.

Jon, I am always happy. I would be even happier if you were to install one in my coach.:D I could even supply the band-aids.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This was one project on the bus that did not entail a lot of blood. The all time winner for shedding blood was pulling the carpet out when I re-did the living room floor. I spent hours pulling staples and a good number of them bit me.

BTW this does not yet include the valve and controls to regulate the water temp when using engine coolant as a heat source. I have plenty of room to make those changes without taking anything out except for panel removal and I think the coolant flow will be compromised because I am using the bay heater valves as the supply and return. I want to see how that affects my HW temp. My next trip will involve 12 hours of driving so we will know if heating has been impacted. If not I am thinking of a circuit to control it that is only functioning when the engine is on or the Webasto is on. Haven't quite got that resolved as to how to route the wires so I am not jumping into that right away.

[phorner]

You're right, Jon.

Getting everything to line up perfectly again, even on what is essentially an identical replacement heater, can be a real challenge.

But patience and perseverance pays off. To date my bay is as dry as the proverbial bone.

I didn't notice a waste holding tank drain in your photos. Do you have one on the passenger side of the bus? Mine consisted of a 3" rubber drain line which was crimped between the hot water heater and the rearward bay bulkhead. It stayed crimped too because the HW heater had to go back in the exact same spot for everything to line up again.

Your installation looks great!