Water Heater

[phorner]

Looks as if the POG Rally Gremlin has struck in Florida! Just as we were making plans for entertaining our visiting POG friends..... our water heater decided it was time to expire!

One of the sights you DON'T want to see first thing in the morning is water dripping from your water bay... make that running out as you open the bay door... WARM water at that!!

Luckily, we have our resident POG water heater replacement expert in attendance at Saint Lucie West for the Mini Rally..... the one and only Truckster himself.

So, after encouraging me that "it-won't-be-pretty-it-won't-be-easy-but-we-can-do-it" talk, we started the removal and replacement process.

Stay tuned for further reports........

[truk4u]

It's a work in progress, but fortunately, Wild Bill Bunch showed up to assist in the heavy stuff!:p

Round 2 tomorrow, but at least Janice temporarily has hot water and more importantly, potty privileges.:cool:

[Woody]

Don't worry, I'll be there at noon with a case of Vodka.

[Woody]

The majority of you missed a great MINI rally.

4 buses and a Magna with many hours spent on the 5th replacing Pauls water heater - great job.

I came with a few questions and some concern and am leaving with fewer questions and a coach I understand a great deal better.

Thanks POG!

[truk4u]

It was a team effort and stand by you Raritan Water Heater owners, Paul's next post may surprise you!:cool:

[Jerry Winchester]

Trukster,

I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed by that weak looking hot water tank next to that robust looking water tank.

[truk4u]

The weak one was of course the Raritan, right!

[phorner]

OK...... so by now everyone is up to date with the saga of replacing my Raritan 20 gallon hot water heater.

Truk was right.....it wasn't easy...... it wasn't pretty...... but, in the end, it was possible to complete. Luckily, I had plenty of help.

It seemed to me that my water heater probably should have lasted a bit longer. I apparently failed to adequately maintain mine. A year or two ago, I replaced the original pressure relief valve and had planned to replace the anode as well. I had ordered one and even had it on hand.

I'm sure that only Jon has a schedule for inspection and replacement of the anode rod as part of his maintenance schedule.

Uh..... you guys ARE inspecting and replacing those anodes....... right???

In case you haven't seen yours lately, I'm attaching a picture of a new magnesium anode rod and what was left in my 10+ year water heater.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My 87 coach water heater was the original, still going when I sold it and it was 17 years old at the time. My current one is the original at 15 years old.

Kind of looking forward to replacing it with this.........http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-13.pdf

[phorner]

That's a great looking water heater. Looks as though it will even plumb up roughly the same as the Raritan.

Apparently, Raritan recommends replacing the anode every 5 to 7 years, maybe sooner, depending on water quality.

[phorner]

Installation of the anode rod....

[truk4u]

I'm appalled..... Is Jon suggesting that he will wait until his water heater starts leaking (fails) before he replaces it!:p

Gasp, will anything ever be the same again!:cool:

[phorner]

Aw.. c'mon.... give Jon a break.

I'm pretty sure that right after the slack adjusters are polished to the appropriate sheen that inspection of cathodic protection devices is the very next priority...:eek:

[rahangman]

That new tank Jon is showing looks to be SS. Perhaps he is daunted by having to keep one more piece of SS as shiny as the copper? Or maybe ...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

There are certain things in life not worth worrying about. Somewhere on the list must be anodes. However, on the list of things to worry about will be slack adjusters. When I changed brake chambers I noticed one of mine had this icckky grease stuff on it. I almost went and bought a new one until I realized it would wipe off. Whew!

[phorner]

Jon is exactly right. There are some things just not worth worrying about.

And changing out that anode rod, at least on my bus, is one of 'em.

The way my bus is plumbed, it's probably just as much work to replace the anode rod as it is to replace the heater itself.

And trust me, it's not something you're gonna want to do on any regular schedule.....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

On a Liberty of my vintage the least accessible converter installed component is the water heater. This is not a gripe, but just an acknowledgement that of all the stuff that is installed this one is likely to take the most time and effort to remove and replace.

I have made the job worse because I added a second back up water pump. So when a Liberty water heater needs to be replaced I will not hesitate to drain and remove the water tank. As difficult as that sounds it is a fairly easy process that just takes some time. The water heater is fully exposed with the tank out and to remove it involves disconnecting coolant lines, water lines, and the electric supply. If I ever have to access and remove the water heater it is a safe bet the one in there now is not going back in, even if all I am doing is replacing a heater element. At its age that water heater has been identified as something I will never try to nurse, and with the availability of a stainless hot water heater I have no problem replacing it, likely never ever having to access it again.

Now that Paul's post has got me thinking maybe I should treat the hot water heater like I do air bags and just order its replacement and install it before the current water heater pukes. Hmmmmm......

All kidding aside, I developed my preventive maintenance schedule with the intent to replace certain items before they fail, regardless of condition so I will have less unexpected problems. But I did not include the house in my thinking, but there is no reason why not. After all I have already added an inverter by-pass capability and a second water pump. I have no solution to a leaky hot water tank so maybe I should consider my 15 year old tank as having outlived its usefulness.

[phorner]

The good news is that, with the way Liberty Coach plumbed our water heaters, in the event of even a catastrophic failure of the tank, it is easily isolated from the rest of the water system.

You will still have full water service to the bus..... although none of it will be hot.

Once I closed a couple of easily accessible valves, our "emergency" was over.

[phorner]

......... our "emergency" was over.

Let me re-phrase that. My emergency was over.....

Janice held a differing opinion...:cool:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You convinced me.

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-13.pdf

It's on order. Looks like I may have to do a little re-plumbing but that will be one less thing to think about for a while.

IMPORTANT........For those of you that have a Raritan type of HW tank it is critical that you do two things. First, make certain you do not lose the air pressure in your accumulator tank. That pressure is listed on the tank, but if not a rule of thumb is to set it to the pump kick in pressure. The reason for doing this is the accumulator tank handles the expansion of the volume of water as the water expands from heating. Going from a cold start, and heating the hot water via engine coolant is going to cause the water contents of the HW tank to expand a considerable amount. To check and add air to the accumulator tank there is a fill valve on the tank usually under a plastic cap. You know the accumulator tank needs air if the pump short cycles. You should be able to draw several quarts of water before the pump kicks on. If the pump kicks on almost instantly it means you have no air cushion in the system and your HW tank could experience excess pressure. That makes the second improtant thing to remember critical.

If you find the HW tank pressure relief valve dripping or leaking water, before you replace it note the advice above. But if the pressure relief valve has failed or developed a leak and must be replaced DO NOT REPLACE IT WITH A VALVE WITH A HIGHER PRESSURE RATING. Most if not all of our HW tanks use a 75PSI pressure relief valve. A twin to that valve readily available at Lowes or Home Depot is likely to be a 175 PSI valve. The use of a higher pressure valve is almost a guarantee you will expose the HW tank to so much pressure it will bulge out at the ends, if not rupture. The correct valves are usually available from the tank manufacturer. If you have a valve with the wrong pressure rating to protect yourself and the tank at the very least make certain you keep the accumulator tank bladder properly pressurized until you can get the correct valve installed.

Equally import

[LNDYCHT]

I beg to differ. The purpose of an accumulator tank is to accumulate water in reserve to help keep a constant pressure in the system. This in turn keeps the pump from short cycling when a faucet is opened only slightly and also keeps the pressure constant when the faucet is fully open. The larger the system the larger the tank. Many newer systems have no accumulator tanks, these systems use pumps that run at variable speeds keeping a constant pressure whether the faucet is partially or fully open. Many of the manufacturers of these pumps do not want an accumulator tank installed.
When I retrofit a water system I always install a check valve in the inlet to the hot water. If this is not done it is possible to get hot water from a cold faucet if the water is hot and the pump is not turned on. The expansion of the heated water is absorbed by the air space at the top of the water heater.
If the hot water tank has 75 psi in it the whole hot water system will have the same pressure, the only way you could change that is with a pressure regulator on the outlet of the water heater.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Wrong. I was specific and spoke only about systems that have an accumulator tank. There is no guarantee a system set up like our Libertys with the accumulator tank bladder pressure to zero will have an air bubble in the HW tank to protect it from expanding. There are photos on this site showing at least one and possibly more tanks that have tanks that expanded. In every case that I was aware of the accumulator tank pressure was nil.

If the bus has pump(s) that do not require or use an accumulator tank then I presume the converter has some method to insure no damage to the water HW heater.

As to maintaining constant pressure, on your Liberty which is undoubtedly set up with a Groco pump and an accumulator tank draw water until the pump cycles on and then turns off. Turn on a faucet and measure the time it takes to draw a quart of water. Play around a little until you know how much to let the water run so that you can draw a second quart of water just prior to the pump restarting. There is no constant flow or pressure. The pressure in an accumulator tank rises and falls and is exactly the same pressure the pump control switch sees, thus varying both pressure and flow.

If you want constant pressure, leave off the accumulator tank or allow its pressure to drop to zero. Then the pump will kick on as soon as you draw any water and will not turn off until the water stops flowing, or in the case of minimum water flow will short cycle. The pressure swings will be of such a frequency it will appear you have a constant pressure.

[LNDYCHT]

Your correct someone is wrong.

The water heater must have a check valve to prevent back flow. You can refer to the installation instructions here http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-03.pdf for this particular tank. The use of a check valve is noted in item number 2. Here is a link to Raritan http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/water_heater/L206waterheaterv0502.pdf they call for two accumulator tanks, but also call for a check valve.Tell me how the water will return to the water system accumulator tank with a check valve in the line. My system and the two newer Liberty's that I checked all have check valves just before the inlet to the water heater.

Here is a link to Shurflo regarding the use of accumulator tanks http://www.shurflo.com/files/Education-Center/Product%20Manuals/Water%20System%20Accessories/911-731_D_24oz.Accumulator%20Tank%20182-100%20200.pdf Remember to install a check valve before the inlet to the hot water tank in the diagrams provided. Although this is a small tank the principles hold true no matter the size.

Gould is now owned by ITT. Here is a link to there large accumulator tanks http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BCPT.pdf Take note that the maximum working pressure is 100 psi. The Raritan has rated pressure of 150 PSI The HT products water heater working pressure is 125 PSI and is tested to 300 PSI. Which will fail first the Hot water tank or the accumulator. Probably neither, the plumbing is the weak link. There is little chance of a water heater expanding a rupturing due to over pressure with out other issues coming into play.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You are correct about the check valve. Now there is a question that we should find answers to. The HW tanks that were bulged due to excessive pressure showed they were subject to more than they were ever desiigned to withstand.

Fred Lloyd posted pictures of his here: http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?4944-My-Big-Fat-Water-Heater-Liberty-Coach&highlight=hot+water+tank

His has not been the only one that has bulged due to excessive pressure.

Since our Liberty Coaches do not have a second accumulator to absorb the extra pressure due to expansion of the water, it seems evident there is no head of air at the top of the tank when this happens. So as a part of a maintenance schedule are we to drain the tanks periodically to allow air into the tank? Or should we just accept the fact that when we experience the greatest expansion, which is when we start a bus with cold water in the tank, and drive the bus until it reaches operating temperature. Unless HW is drawn during that time pressures are going to get quite high. It is not a safety issue as long as the relief valve is the correct 75 PSI pressure since the excess will be bled off. If the valve has been replaced with anything higher then there is a problem.

I am almost certain the greatest pressure occurs after a long period of driving with no HW drawn. The water is so hot it is dangerous and we have always exercised great care when using HW after we have been driving. I am sure that the HW tank does not bulge all at once, but over time with each subsequent unrelieved pressure event it bulges a little more each time until it looks like what Fred posted.

As to the principle of the check valve, I can see where someone in a plumbing code can say if the water pressure is low or zero, the lack of a check valve will prevent HW from backflowing and potentially burning someone. But in our coaches I have an issue with that. First, if the valve is eliminated it brings the accumulator tank into the system to absorb the expansion. That equalizes the pressure throughout the entire coach so as the water pressure drops, it drops in hot and cold equally minimizing any chance of HW burning someone.

But our coaches do not comply with any plumbing code so to add a check valve just to meet a code is ignoring the other violations which are more severe such as cross contamination.

What think ye?

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Last fall just before we hit the road, I too noticed that my Raritan had bulged and grown lengthwise to fit the bay space. I noticed this after experiencing rust colored water after the bus sat for about a week without use. This directed me to remove the water bay decorative facia to expose the plumbing. After thinking about it I concluded that one of two items in the plumbing chain could cause rust, their being the accumulator tank and the hot water tank. The easiest to check was the accumulator and sure enough after turning off the water pump and relieving the water pressure I discovered no pressure in the bladder/accumulator tank. Checking it further I pressurized the tank and after several days it was again at zero. I R&R'd the bladder tank with new.
During the course of investigation I discovered that the Raritan had grown in height and that the pressure relief valve was the $4.00 garden variety with a 175psi value. I R&R'd it with the correct 75psi $50.00 valve.
It was known from the beginning of my ownership that the electric heating element was burned out so that was R&R'd as well.
We always have had the problem of the engine heat over heating the potable hot water, at this time I experimented with regulating the engine water circulating through the tank and have concluded that a lesser flow than Liberty specifies is correct for me, (I think every coach has it's own happy setting).
The last hot water difficulty I had was that the tank thermostat was defective(shot). The symptom was all worked well after resetting the thermostat until the coach was taken out on the road after which time when the water heated by the engine was depleted there would be no electrically heated water as the thermostat had poped. I concluded that the engine heat was affecting the thermostat and even though others disagreed with my postulation I R&R'd it out with success. Now except for the bulged tank, I have resolved the hot water issues.
Raritan was out of stock at the time of my troubles and I was out of time. We had a schedule to hit the road and took off with the bulged tank knowing that we would change it out for the SS copy after returning to the bus barn in the Spring.
As of last Fall the SS model was only about $200.00 more and I think well worth it!

One more thing and a HOT TIP :eek: set your hot water tank to something over 120 deg. to kill legionella bacteria.

To the best of my recollection Jim Elmore and Lloyd and Pam also had the tank issues.

JIM :rolleyes: :o

[Woody]

Thanks for solving an old problem I had with my Vogue - when I sold it it was found to have a bad WH that had "frozen" which was impossible since it was never exposed to freezing temps.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

In order to "regulate" the flow of engine coolant into the coils of the HW tank, and thus reduce the HW tank temperature when driving someone would have to do some pretty fancy calculations which take into consideration how much or if any water will be drawn from the HW side while driving, and most importantly figure out how to reduce the coolant flow to the cols such that the heat gain from the coolant is equal to or less than the heat loss from the HW tank.

If that can be done the issue goes away. It can be done thermostatically by using the existing thermostat. In addition to energizing the heating coil when shore or generator power is available, it can also be used to open a solenoid valve on the engine coolant supply but open the circuit when the set point is reached. This limits the hot water temperature, but if not more importantly it eliminates the extraordinary heat rise that causes such expansion that bulges the tanks.

I'm still thinking about eliminating the check valve.

[truk4u]

Just a couple more items to keep this going...

1. On Paul's Liberty, there was no expansion tank unless is was over on the driver side.

2. On the Liberty's, why not just shut off the valves for the coolant and forget the engine heated hot water. I takes no time at all to heat the tank with electric or the Webasto.

OK, now I'm going back to sleep...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul has a Headhunter pump. I think it has a small internal accumulator and is intended to cycle on as water is drawn. It is a companion to the Headhunter toilet and provides a lot of flow at a fairly high pressure.

I have no idea how or if HW tank pressure issues are addressed on coaches with that set up other than puking as necessary through the T&P safety valve.

[LNDYCHT]

I believe that the bottom line is at what pressure does the tank expand. If the correct relief valve is installed and it functions properly why does the tank expand.

In the case of Fred Lloyd his tank had a 150 PSI relief valve, Raritan clearly states in there literature that the tank is rated at 150 PSI. His tank expanded toward the bottom which was likely rusty after 13 years, it was the weak link. In my business I see it all the time, a boater will go to the local hardware store to buy there replacement pressure relief valve rather than buying one from me. Most marine water heaters are rated at a lower pressure. They are designed for a system that runs around 65 PSI on the cold side. There is a calculation for pressure rise when water is heated http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/expansion-tanks-d_885.html

What you say about heat exchangers is true. In new marine water heaters they install mixer valves. This device is basically a thermostat on the outlet side of the water heater which mixes cold water with the hot preventing scalding. If the engine runs at 190 degrees and you have a heat exchanger than the water in the tank can reach the same temperature. Mixer valves reduce the outlet temperature of the water heater to a predetermined temperature. These high temperatures will not damage the tank as the pressure relief valve protects it. If we do a long run with our coaches the water heaters will probably always go into a relief. It takes very little water loss to reduce the pressure.

Caution you could be poisoned !!!!!!!!!!
If you have an engine coolant heat exchanger in your water heater and the heat exchanger fails and you drink water from your fresh water system you could be poisoned. Think about it. The heat exchanger has a minuet leak. The glycol from the engine contaminates the hot water. The water you wash your dishes with has glycol in it. The hot water contaminates the faucet with trace amounts of glycol. You turn on the cold water and it is contaminated with trace amounts of glycol. This is why new marine engines that have water heater heat exchangers use non toxic antifreeze. At my shop all the techs are instructed to use non toxic antifreeze in boats that have water heater heat exchangers connected to the engine

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm not saying you are wrong about glycol, but I suspect the minute it does leak you are going to know it.

I just changed to EC-1 coolant and I drained and refilled the system at least 8 times and I still could not get rid of the old red coolant color which came out with every drain. The forth drain was a flush and after flushing the flush four times it was still showing a strong pink.The Aquahot uses non toxic coolant in its heat exchanger, but our Libertys use engine coolant. Detroit Diesel stipulates the type of coolant to be used so non-toxic may not be an option. I am surprised the coolant heat exchanger is not wrapped externally around the heater, but since I have never had to deal with one I will take your workd for it that the coils run internally.

If the HW tank does lose its head of air and becomes completely water logged then the system acts like a hydraulic system and it will only take a minute amount of water to escape to relieve pressure. I doubt if it even has to function on the electric heater, just when the engine coolant passes through. Which now makes me wonder if I can use the electric heater thermostat to open or close a solenoid valve in the engine coolant line to the HW tank.

On our coach the shower uses a pressure and thermostatic mixing valve. The sink faucets however are not mixing valves and real care needs to be exercised when driving or just after driving.

[phorner]

Is it possible to adjust the gate valves that control engine coolant flow around the hot water tank to regulate the temperature a bit? I've never tried it. Always had the gate valves either fully open or fully closed.

Would be interesting to experiment with it a bit. I'll bet that if you slow the flow of coolant to a trickle that the water temperature will at least somewhat cooler.

[jack14r]

Jon,The headhunter pump does not have a accumulator that I am aware of,sometimes Liberty hides the accumulator tank behind the refrigerator, and Truk I think that if you turn off the valves for the coolant to the hot water heater won't it also turn off the flow from the webasto to the hot water heater?

[phorner]

Jon,The headhunter pump does not have a accumulator that I am aware of,sometimes Liberty hides the accumulator tank behind the refrigerator, and Truk I think that if you turn off the valves for the coolant to the hot water heater won't it also turn off the flow from the webasto to the hot water heater?

Yes. Turning off the valves keeps the Webasto heater from heating the hot water. The coolant lines running to the water heater don't care about the source of the heat whether it is the engine or the Webasto heater.

I was wondering if you could adjust the gate valves to regulate the flow of hot coolant in an effort to maintain a somewhat lower water temperature in the hot water heater.

[jack14r]

I turned mine down,because on a long trip it was too hot.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

The accumulator tank behind the refrigerator may be dedicated to an RO system. I installed one when I put in an RO system for our refrigerator. That suggests the Headhunter pump is almost an instant on device.

As to turning down the valves, there are valves at the HW heater for engine coolant. if the flow of coolant to the HW tank is adjusted so it matches the heat loss at a given temperature the water will not get so hot. Since I have a new SS HW tank on order, when I put it in I am going to see if I can add a solenoid valve controlled by the HW tank thermostat to regulate flow of engine coolant to the tank heat exchanger. The problem is I have to isolate the power sources since the HW tank will not have 120 VAC to it while running down the road unless I have the generator running and the switch on.

[truk4u]

Yep, brain fart Jack!:rolleyes: I should have said electric only.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jack,

The accumulator tank behind the refrigerator may be dedicated to an RO system. I installed one when I put in an RO system for our refrigerator. That suggests the Headhunter pump is almost an instant on device.

As to turning down the valves, there are valves at the HW heater for engine coolant. if the flow of coolant to the HW tank is adjusted so it matches the heat loss at a given temperature the water will not get so hot. Since I have a new SS HW tank on order, when I put it in I am going to see if I can add a solenoid valve controlled by the HW tank thermostat to regulate flow of engine coolant to the tank heat exchanger. The problem is I have to isolate the power sources since the HW tank will not have 120 VAC to it while running down the road unless I have the generator running and the switch on.

Jon, you could use a 24v solenoid valve taking the 24v off the water pump.

JIM

[jack14r]

I have seen both(RO tank and accumulator) behind the frig on different year conversions,I am just wondering if Paul's could be hidden behind the frige,I thought that when the Headhunter pump became SOP that all coaches had an accumulator.

[LNDYCHT]

"The problem is I have to isolate the power sources since the HW tank will not have 120 VAC to it while running down the road unless I have the generator running and the switch on. "

Jon

If you are going to use a 12 volt solenoid you will need two relays. If you are going to use a 110 volt solenoid you will need only one relay. In either case you will need a separate 110 volt supply that is powered from your inverter while the coach is running. The 110 volt supply will only be used to power the relay ( and possibly the solenoid).
Let me know which way you want to do it and I can provide a wiring schematic if required.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't have any problem designing the circuit, I just want to think through all the options. I do not want to use inverter power to keep 120V at the thermostat because that will get adding a circuit with protection into the equation. I have no desire to add another circuit to the inverter output, nor do I want to piggy back on a circuit that might be convenient to tap into that is powered from an inverter.

What I may do is a variation of what Jim C is suggesting and that is to use an external 24V relay to switch the 120 V AC. The same thermostat switch could be used to open and close the solenoid valve. There may be merit in using the 24 volts from the water pump because unless the pump is switched on the HW tank will not heat. I have added a second pump and I need to see how that influences my approach.

For those rare occasions when the bus is using the generator or shore power and the engine is running I think having the ability to heat the tank from coolant and the electric heaters (like I can do now) is an advantage which is why I am leaning to running 24 V through the thermostat switch. I just haven't given enough thought to whether I want the solenoid valve to cycle every time the thermostat switch cycles and may have to have a second relay to power the solenoid coil with an engine on 24 V circuit.

[phorner]

I have seen both(RO tank and accumulator) behind the frig on different year conversions,I am just wondering if Paul's could be hidden behind the frige,I thought that when the Headhunter pump became SOP that all coaches had an accumulator.

I do have a small accumulator tank behind the fridge which is fed directly from the Culligan RO system.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That tank, like mine is isolated from the entire water system via internal check valves in the RO filter unit.

[joelselman]

The adjustment of the gate valves regulating coolant flow to the hwh was done on my coach in the left webasto bay. I don't believe I have addl valves at the hwh. In theory, I suppose this limits hot water volume to the webasto htg system, road heat, and driver heat also but has not been a problem. Failure to adjust these valves may (did in my case) result in overheating of the water in the hwh which trips the overheat protector on the hwh thermostat which must be manually reset before the hwh will heat electrically. In theory, there could also be a scalding danger with excessively hot water.

[joelselman]

Also, my Liberty had an accumulator tank behind the fridge for ro only. Early headhunter pumps (can't remember the model) had a small accumulator tank built in to the pump housing. Upon replacing my hh water pump with the current model w/o built in accumulator, I found it necessary to add one to prevent excessive pump cycling and overheating, per hh's recommendations. I suppose a tank in the cold water circuit anywhere should work, but hh recommends it be located close to the pump.

All this water htr replacement talk has me freaked...I'm only 6 serial numbers away...my time is almost up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Take heart Joel, my coach is 5811 and Liberty 346. Theoretically mine should go first.

I believe there should be a valve for engine coolant on both the supply and return line at the HW tank. But also they should be supplemented with valves immediately behind the accessory housing on the engine, LH side when looking at it from the doors, and another valve accessible from the small webasto door straight in almost six or 10 inches further than you can reach.

Closing or opening the gate valve impacts the entire coach.

[dmatz]

I have been reading all this, why is there not a simple expansion tank with a blader in it to absorb the expansion. Then you do not need to layer in all this complicated stuff that is mechanical in nature and sure to fail at some point in the future? it would only need to be a gallon or two in size.

[garyde]

Just to add to the comments, I have a valve above my webasto , adjacent to radiator, which is the hot water heater coolant valve. Troy at Liberty said this should be more than half way closed. I was havng a problem where my hot water heater was not heating by the engine coolant after several hours on the road. The coolant was not circulating thru that loop. so closing it half way created the needed balance.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lee,

Check your PM. Interesting find.