Bus stands

[scott13]

Isn't anybody going to comment on the chance of getting more bus stands built. Jon, where are you? You always have a comment on everything and besides I think you made them. I know I have an H and it's sort of an outcast on the site but us H owners should be safe too when we need to climb under the bus. Don't throw us under the bus just cuz it doesn't say XL on it.

[truk4u]

Jon is on his way home today from Titusville, leaving early because he had to use his Webasto and is pissed off at the Florida temps causing him to use Diesel instead of free electric. The Webasto use will also askew his log book numbers and there's a chance that he could be as much as .00001% off with his ongoing fuel consumption chart from 1987. It's a break for me as I can't handle another day of the Lennon Sisters and the best of Lawrence Welk.

So, the POG Godfather wanted a lesson in cell phones and Wi-iF, a process that became difficult at best.The first hurtle was to try and convince him the cell phone he wears on his hip should be turned ON! No, that won't work, as long as it's off, he doesn't have to worry about cell use time. His plan is to call people back after he gets home if he has any messages.

So I took the time to explain Wi-Fi, Mi-Fi, Broadband, Droid, Iphone, Blackberry, Laptops, Ipad and Smart Phones in general. So the thought of mobil communication in this day and age with A-1 is hopeless and he kept asking about the possibilities of finding pay phones and wondered if Telex was still an option. We did string two beer cans between the Coaches and he seemed happy.

As he left this morning, he yelled out the window that his Roids were Tethered!:p

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Tom, that is toooooo funny.. !

Sorry the weather in Florida didn't work well for you guys either. Peg, our 2 new kids and I were there over the Xmas / New Years Holiday and it wasn't pleasant then either.

Did you get a chance to talk to the people at the Signature resort in Naples?

Gary S.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon is on his way home today from Titusville, leaving early because he had to use his Webasto and is pissed off at the Florida temps causing him to use Diesel instead of free electric. The Webasto use will also askew his log book numbers and there's a chance that he could be as much as .00001% off with his ongoing fuel consumption chart from 1987. It's a break for me as I can't handle another day of the Lennon Sisters and the best of Lawrence Welk.

So, the POG Godfather wanted a lesson in cell phones and Wi-iF, a process that became difficult at best.The first hurtle was to try and convince him the cell phone he wears on his hip should be turned ON! No, that won't work, as long as it's off, he doesn't have to worry about cell use time. His plan is to call people back after he gets home if he has any messages.

So I took the time to explain Wi-Fi, Mi-Fi, Broadband, Droid, Iphone, Blackberry, Laptops, Ipad and Smart Phones in general. So the thought of mobil communication in this day and age with A-1 is hopeless and he kept asking about the possibilities of finding pay phones and wondered if Telex was still an option. We did string two beer cans between the Coaches and he seemed happy.

As he left this morning, he yelled out the window that his Roids were Tethered!:p

That was priceless, put it in the articles section under :rolleyes: :p :confused:

[Kenneth Brewer]

Gary,
We're now thinking a mini Rally at Hearthside to coincide with Oshkosh, stay tuned!

When is that, please? We intend to visit the northern peninsula and have it coincide with Hearthside. Thanks.

[truk4u]

I'll make a new post Ken in Rallys.

[Woody]

This thread seems to have gotten off base but I'll ad this:

We took advantage of a very expensive brochure offer for a free week at Signature Naples.

We asked, several times, for a sales pitch but no one really tried.

We left after 4 very inexpensive waterfront days with the salesman arriving as we unpluged.

Nice place that has gone bankrupt twice before under other management. Hope these guys don't do it again.

[rfoster]

I heard that A1 got mad and left cause he couldn't use his OTR A/C because of the cold Florida Temps.

Truck: Can you redeem the empty Geritol bottles or do you just have to trash them?

[truk4u]

King - I think he threw the Geritol bottles in the back of the Hummer, but one thing I learned, you better get out of the way at 4:00 PM when the Senior Buffets start!

Woody - Sounds like you experienced some of Signatures no-service also. Sorry for the thread creep, I'm guilty on this one.

[scott13]

So you guys think when he gets back he'll want to make some bus stands to off set that extra diesel he had to burn to keep from freezing to death in Florida? does he know most of those people on Lawrence Welk are dead? Even the people in the audience.

[dmatz]

If Jon makes more I would be in for a set.

[wayne]

So would we.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Truk.................

BITE ME!

To others inquiring about stands I am working with my daughter to see if she wants to include them as a standard product available to Prevost owners. There are two issues. Freight cost is a killer. If they can be shipped in bulk by truck as we did to Kerrville the cost per set is tolerable. If individual sets are shipped freight is very pricey.

A second consideration is the folks at the factory (Jamestown Advanced Products) have no clue about the height of stands for a given coach. Not to make the issue more complex than it is the H models have at least two heights for fronts and rears, and the 8V92 XL has different rear heights than later models. Additionally we know there are coaches out there with air bags that will not raise the front as high as others and the potential for the wrong height stands is significant.

They have always been made and distributed at cost. I would have to do some arm twisting to get these safety items made with no profit. I can offer something for consideration.

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-air-over-hydraulic-jack-95553.html

The jacks listed above are a safe, if not expensive alternate. I use them occasionally by having the hydraulic jack in the lowest position and threading the center adjustment screw up under the body support point. They are just shy of touching the support points with the bus in the fully raised position. Once in place I lower the bus on to them so it is a pure mechanical support to keep the bus from dropping. They are excellent for use in jacking because I attach an air hose to them and squeeze the handle. DO NOT USE THEM EXTENDED HYDRAULICALLY IF YOU ARE GOING BENEATH THE BUS UNLESS YOU HAVE A FAIL SAFE SUPPORT TO SUPPLEMENT THEM.

[AprilWhine]

http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-441310-sj-10--10-ton-sj-series-screw-jack/jetn441310,default,pd.html?ref=pricegrabber441310

This is what I am ordering. Use squares of 2x12 or plywood to get the jack close to the right height. The screw adjusts the rest.

And, before it is asked, we support Aircraft Carriers in drydock with wooden blocks.

Jim

[Denny]

I use Jon's stands when the bus is on flat ground; they work great and are very well made. When I have the bus on ramps and need higher stands I use regular adjustable jack stands for the extra height that is needed They are rated at 12 tons each and will support 48,000lbs. when two are used. That is more than enough to support either end of the bus.

[dreamchasers]

I use Jon's stands when the bus is on flat ground; they work great and are very well made. When I have the bus on ramps and need higher stands I use regular adjustable jack stands for the extra height that is needed They are rated at 12 tons each and will support 48,000lbs. when two are used. That is more than enough to support either end of the bus.

Denny,

I am interested in bus ramps. Did you build or order yours? Any pictures?

Hector

[Jon Wehrenberg]

At one time the company also made steel ramps which would support the coach, front or rear. They were sold through Sporty's and in the pictures showed a Prevost supported by them.

I guess I have to pull this stuff together and get some photos. I think Truk used a set I have (the prototypes) and I think i gave a pair to Mango.

[Denny]

Hector,
I went to a local Amish sawmill and bought 2 - 6 x 8 x 8 rough cut oak timbers. I cut them in half giving me 4 - 6 x 8 x 4 pieces. I then measured in about 18 inches from one end. From that 18" mark, I took a chain saw and cut the ramp angle going to nothing at the other end. I used the 8 " side for the base of the ramp thus raising the bus 6" off of the ground. Between the ramps and lifting the bus with the air system even a fat guy like me can get under it. I used this when redoing the OTR A/C system on my CC and I was able to get at everything.

This is a case where a picture is worth a thousand words. I do not know how to post a photo of the ramps on POG or I would. If a photo is needed, I can take a picture on my phone and text message or email it to you.

[dreamchasers]

Hector,
I went to a local Amish sawmill and bought 2 - 6 x 8 x 8 rough cut oak timbers. I cut them in half giving me 4 - 6 x 8 x 4 pieces. I then measured in about 18 inches from one end. From that 18" mark, I took a chain saw and cut the ramp angle going to nothing at the other end. I used the 8 " side for the base of the ramp thus raising the bus 6" off of the ground. Between the ramps and lifting the bus with the air system even a fat guy like me can get under it. I used this when redoing the OTR A/C system on my CC and I was able to get at everything.

This is a case where a picture is worth a thousand words. I do not know how to post a photo of the ramps on POG or I would. If a photo is needed, I can take a picture on my phone and text message or email it to you.

Thanks Denny....

Hector

[truk4u]

Denny - If you want to post the picture, text it to me at 770-634-7530 and I'll post for you.

Jon let me use two of his Prototype Ramps and they worked great, but I needed 4 and Mango stole the other two!

[Denny]

Thanks Tom. Will send pic to you later today.

[Denny]

Correction: The size of the rough cut timbers are 8 x 10 not 6 x 8 as previously posted.

Tom: I sent pics to you via text message.

[scott13]

Truk.................

BITE ME!

To others inquiring about stands I am working with my daughter to see if she wants to include them as a standard product available to Prevost owners. There are two issues. Freight cost is a killer. If they can be shipped in bulk by truck as we did to Kerrville the cost per set is tolerable. If individual sets are shipped freight is very pricey.

A second consideration is the folks at the factory (Jamestown Advanced Products) have no clue about the height of stands for a given coach. Not to make the issue more complex than it is the H models have at least two heights for fronts and rears, and the 8V92 XL has different rear heights than later models. Additionally we know there are coaches out there with air bags that will not raise the front as high as others and the potential for the wrong height stands is significant.

They have always been made and distributed at cost. I would have to do some arm twisting to get these safety items made with no profit. I can offer something for consideration.

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-air-over-hydraulic-jack-95553.html

The jacks listed above are a safe, if not expensive alternate. I use them occasionally by having the hydraulic jack in the lowest position and threading the center adjustment screw up under the body support point. They are just shy of touching the support points with the bus in the fully raised position. Once in place I lower the bus on to them so it is a pure mechanical support to keep the bus from dropping. They are excellent for use in jacking because I attach an air hose to them and squeeze the handle. DO NOT USE THEM EXTENDED HYDRAULICALLY IF YOU ARE GOING BENEATH THE BUS UNLESS YOU HAVE A FAIL SAFE SUPPORT TO SUPPLEMENT THEM.

Boy Truk you know how to ole' John excited. Maybe it was the extra cost for fuel down in sunny Fl. that has him on edge. Or the fact that he has to wait to get home to catch up on his email. Maybe we should all pitch in and get him a smart phone.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Scott,

Don't side with Truk. He is still all ashamed about how I know he gets up just before noon, lounges around in his Jammies until dinner time and then frets over where and what to eat.

The only excitement in his day is rebooting his droid.

His post was a little mean because he hasn't been sleeping well because his neighbors have three big dogs that bark every morning at 7:30 when he is still four hours from getting up.

BTW, I never bought a drop of fuel while in the Sunshine state. I have long rang tanks so I made the 1440 mile round trip and still had 100 gallons of fuel on board when I topped off at the local Pilot, the cheapest fuel along my entire route.

[johnklopp]

All,
I have been looking around at what was available off the shelf to support my bus. The stands seem to be available in standard or similar capacities. My concern has been in the rated capacity of available 6 ton stands. I would expect the rated capacity to be exceeded by a failure point or crash capacity of 50 to 100% above the rated capacity. It seems that 4 stands would be used in the rear of the bus alone providing a rated capacity of 6 x 4 or 24 tons or 48,000 pounds. The resulting failure point should be well over 60,000 pounds suggesting that the bus could be supported by 4 stands.
I came across the following report covering a bus that slid off its stands while in use by a professional bus mechanic. Part of the issue seems to be the lack of Lips on jack stands to cradle the area being supported, the placement of the stands on part of the movable suspension and failure to block the front wheels. Based on the report, I’m a little uncomfortable crawling under my bus even though I know it should be safe.

California FACE Report #99CA006
________________________________________
Mechanic Dies When Bus Falls Off Jack Stands and Crushes Him in California
________________________________________

SUMMARY
A 48-year old male mechanic (decedent) died when he was crushed by a bus that fell off jack stands. He had jacked the 37,500 pound bus up with lifts that cradle each rear tire. When the rear of the bus was lifted, the decedent placed jack stands underneath the trailing arms of the rear suspension. The jack stands were fabricated by a local welding shop. They were made with quarter-inch plate steel on the top and bottom with a square steel tube welded between. The front tires had not been chocked. As he was performing a brake job underneath the bus, the bus slipped off the jack stands. The bus crushed the decedent between the rear axle and the concrete floor. The CA/FACE investigator determined that, in order to prevent future occurrences, employers should as part of their Injury and Illness Prevention Program.


• Ensure employees use only tools and equipment that have been tested, certified and rated.

• Ensure employees chock the wheels of vehicles that remain in contact with the working surface.

• Ensure employees do not place jack stands on portions of a vehicle that are not fixed in place.
•
INTRODUCTION
On May 12, 1999 at 4:36 a.m. a 48-year old male mechanic (decedent) died when he was crushed by a bus that fell off jack stands. He was performing a brake job and was underneath the bus. When the bus slipped off the stands the bus crushed the decedent between the rear axle and the concrete floor. The CA/FACE investigator learned of this incident on May 17, 1999 from the local legal office of the California Department of Industrial Relations, Division of Occupational Safety & Health (Cal/OSHA). On May 19, 1999 the CA/FACE investigator traveled to the incident site where he interviewed the company district manager. The CA/FACE investigator took photographs of the bus and the jack stands involved in the incident.

The employer, a public transportation company, had been in business for 45 years at time of the incident. The number of employees in the company was 79,500 with 150 employees working on site at the time of the incident. The decedent had worked for the company for 7 years at the time of the incident, 3 years of which were spent at the site. The decedent, according to the district manager, was trained and had worked at another company location as a mechanic prior to his employment at the facility where the fatality occurred. No training documents for the decedent could be located.

The company had a complete Injury and Illness Prevention Program (IIPP) and a code of safe practices as contained in the company safety manual. The district manager had primary safety responsibility and his delegates were responsible for the implementation of the IIPP. Regularly scheduled safety meetings were held once a month. Workers on the 11:00 p.m. to 7:30 a.m. shift, the decedent's shift, could come early or stay late for the safety meetings since they were held only during the two other shifts. Normally they would hold over since the subsequent shift's safety meeting was held at the beginning of the shift. The shop supervisor held safety meetings in addition to the regular meetings for the workers under his/her jurisdiction.


INVESTIGATION
The site of the incident is a large yard where transit buses are dispatched, stored and repaired. The incident occurred in a garage used to repair transit buses. The garage has a number of large bays, the length, width and height of which, will accommodate the largest single-unit transit bus.

On the day of the incident, the decedent was scheduled to perform a rear brake job on a 37,500 pound transit bus. The bus had been backed into one of the bays. The decedent had jacked up the bus and removed the four 24½ inch diameter rear wheels with their tires mounted. Normal procedure thereafter is to set the emergency brake and chock the front wheels. It is unknown if the emergency brake was set. The front wheels were not chocked.

Jack stands are used to support the bus while work is being performed. Usual parts of the undercarriage where jack stands would be placed are the frame rails and the axle housing. In this instance the decedent placed the jack stands under a moveable part of the suspension called trailing arms. The trailing arms were 4 7/8 inches wide at the point of placement.

The jack stands the decedent used were shop-made by a local welding company. According to the district manager, they were brought on site by a mechanic that no longer works for the bus company. In addition, he stated that they were apparently made to the specifications of another bus company.

The jack stands used was 13½ inches high. They were constructed by welding a 7½ inch square piece of ¼-inch plate steel to the top of a piece of square tubing. The square tubing served as the support post. A 12-inch by 11-inch piece of ¼-inch plate steel had been welded to the bottom of the square tubing. The top plate was completely flat, having no lip unlike commercial jack stands that always do.

The decedent's job was to remove the 19-inch diameter brake drum assembly. At the time of the incident he was using hand tools to perform this task. As he was under the bus, the jack stands tipped and the bus suddenly shifted sideways to the right. It fell off the jack stands and the rear axle pinned the decedent between itself and the concrete floor.

The paramedics were dispatched at 3:45 a.m. and arrived at 3:53 a.m. They found the decedent unconscious. He was transported to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead at 4:36 a.m.

CAUSE OF DEATH
The certificate of death stated the cause of death to be blunt abdominal and pelvic injuries.

RECOMMENDATIONS/DISCUSSION
Recommendation #1: Employers should ensure employees use only tools and equipment that have been tested, certified and rated.

Discussion: The jack stands used in this instance had not been tested or certified as to their rated capacity. They were not permanently marked with a rated capacity. Their construction was not in accordance with commercial jack stand construction. Lips are employed on jack stands to cradle the area being supported. The missing lips meant that the jack stand's center of support could not be determined because the part of the vehicle being supported could not be cradled. When the part being supported is cradled equally between the lips of a jack stand, it is placed so the weight has been placed over the center of the jack stand. This makes it very difficult for the jack stand to tip. In addition, using a flat plate on the bottom of a jack stand, as in this case, does not allow for the possibility of an uneven surface. Commercially made jack stands have legs, normally constructed in a tripod fashion. Tripod jack stands are able to compensate for small surface imperfections or make larger surface imperfections readily apparent. Their legs make an uneven surface apparent by one, or two, legs not touching the surface. If the decedent had used the commercial jack stands available in the shop, placed them correctly, or if the employer had removed the shop-made jack stands from service, this incident may not have happened.

Recommendation #2: Employers should ensure employees chock the wheels of vehicles that remain in contact with the working surface.

Discussion: The decedent failed to follow shop policy and chock the wheels of the bus prior to beginning the brake job. Chocks keep vehicles from moving while parked. In this case, chocks placed under the front wheels may have prevented the front wheels from shifting when the jack stands shifted slightly. Enough movement may have been prevented to keep the bus from falling off the jack stands.

Recommendation #3: Employers should ensure employees do not place jack stands on portions of a vehicle that are not fixed in place.

Discussion: In this fatality, the decedent placed the jack stands under the trailing arms of the rear suspension. Although trailing arms are meant to move up and down, the do have some sideways movement. Jack stands are normally placed under the frame rail, axle housing, or another fixed area capable of supporting the weight of a vehicle. Both the frame rail, 3½ inches wide, and the axle housing were available for jack stand placement in this instance. To do this, the decedent would have had to use the available commercial jack stands since the shop-made stands would not work. If the decedent had placed the proper jack stands under fixed parts of the undercarriage, this incident may not have happened.

[scott13]

Jon, I'm looking for something to put under the bus to take the load off the airbags when it is in the shop. Do you think it's even worth the effort or should I just forget it. The Jet 10 ton screw jacks look like they would work for this purpose. I have a service manual and I think it should tell me where place the jacks to take the load off the air bags. That is if you guys think I should bother with it. It's a shame to use even cheap fuel to drive to Fl. and almost freeze to death!

[truk4u]

Here are Denny's pictures:

7754

7755

[Denny]

Tom,
Thanks for posting the pictures.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The report on the mechanic that died was chilling. What struck me immediately was he appeared to do two major mistakes.

First, the stands were not placed beneath body support points, but under a part of the suspension. That is a critical error since suspension members can move and offer no protection against an air bag failure. A slow leak in the air bags could easily result in a bus shifting as the air bag loses pressure.

The second error was a failure to prevent the bus from moving. Chocking the wheels is important if the bus is raised at one end or the other.

It is sad he lost his life and points out that nobody should ever go beneath the bus unless it is properly supported. What is sadder still is the number of times I have seen professionals slide under a bus that was not supported to check on something or do some work. I think it is easy to get complacent, something we should all avoid.

[TerryM]

I did a quick Google search on bus ramps and found an interesting set of homemade ramps. Here's a link to the page with instructions and many pictures. http://users.cwnet.com/thall/bus_ramps.htm

I think a ramp building project is in my future.

http://users.cwnet.com/thall/images/ramps_25.jpg

[michaeldterry]

I did a quick Google search on bus ramps and found an interesting set of homemade ramps. Here's a link to the page with instructions and many pictures. http://users.cwnet.com/thall/bus_ramps.htm

I think a ramp building project is in my future.

http://users.cwnet.com/thall/images/ramps_25.jpg


Terry - I built a set of ramps for my old Eagle entertainer bus that looked jvery much like those. I used 4X8's stacked and screwed together and then cut on an angle to create the "ramp". They were easy to build, worked great, but were heavy as lead to haul around!