Serious Tire Experience Please Read

[Jim Skiff]

I am posting this message for Bill Price and will add pictures:


All:

I realize that some of you are not familiar with what happened to me and some are. Here is a thumbnail sketch of the event.

Oct 31 I had a inside dual on my Prevost explode while airing it up in my barn. The outside dual is what saved my life as the inside dual blew into the outside dual. This was a Michelin tire that exploded. By Michelin definition this was a zipper blowout. The tire has been returned to Michelin for a non-destructive evaluation. I want go into any more detail regarding Michelin for obvious legal reasons. I can tell you NTSB and NHTSA are now involved.

I did occur some slight physical damage to my Prevost which has been repaired. I might add I also have four new Michelin tires on the drive axle.

I did sustain physical injury from this event.
I am now being treated for post traumatic stress syndrome and ear trauma. The amount of permanent ear damage and etc is yet to be determined as I am still under the care of a Ear nose and throat Doctor.
To sum this up I am being treated as I have been in a bomb blast.

After this incident it became apparant to me we must find some safe way of airing our tires up while out on the road.

After assemblying three different versions I do believe this is the one to use. It is lite and mobile. I like the feature where you can add or subtract air with the push of a button. The dial is large and very easy to read.

I will list part numbers which will be different than those shown below in the Myers add. The part number I will list gets you the 11 ft hose. I was able to purchase all of this from the Dallas, Texas location.

For the Mast Air Guage part Number Myers 54930 $125.00 (http://www.myerstiresupply.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=766&info=Mast-Air-Gauge)
This part number gets you the 11 ft hose and clip on chuck. (http://www.myerstiresupply.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=766&info=Mast-Air-Gauge)

I did add quick releases to all the above which are available at all auto supply houses.


54102 25 ft additional air hose $32.00

I also ordered some additional clip on chucks like those above part # 54809

On these I installed a 90 degree elbow with a quick release so I can reach any combination of valve stems.


Again you must use OSHA aproved impact resistant eye protection and a set of David Clark hearing protectors.

Remain a minimum of 25 ft from the tire at all times regardless of whether it is mounted or not.

Trajectory Trajectory Trajectory This is the key. Stay clear !!

These Zipper blowouts are bombs period!!! Tire brand does not matter!! There is little to NO indication of when these Zipper blowouts can occur.

The RV community needs to be made aware of this immediately. In speaking with many RV owners in the past weeks few if any have ever heard of a Zipper Blowout.


Professional road svc is always first choice but as you all know we don't always have that luxury in our travels.

FYI Pictures are available.

I would be interested in your comments.


Bill Price

940-663-5105 home

940-663-2900 office

[Kenneth Brewer]

www.irsst.qc.ca/media/documents/PubIRSST/R-590.pdf

[Kenneth Brewer]

Sorry about your injury and vehicle damage. Without any knowledge on the subject, it seems this might be a defect since, as I understand it, the tire was cold, and you take good care and maintenance of your coach. I will have to find a air chuck clip on that will work on the outside dual because the air stem points inwards on those and it's almost impossible to get such a chuck to clip on because there is lack of room. Please keep us posted. And thank you.

[Bill Price]

Ken:

I know Myers tire supply does make such a clip on air chuck. You could also reverse your valve stems. If you run tire air pressure monitors reversing the stems is the way to go. Good to hear from you and hope all is well with you.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bill and I have spoken and corresponded at length on this topic and it is an eye opener. I asked Michelin specifically their reco0mmendations for safety procedures when airing up a tire and their answer was ..........NONE. Bill has a copy of that email.

I read the link Ken posted and one thing on Zipper failure jumped out at me and I think every one of us has to attach considerable credence to what we were told by Michelin and Goodyear at two separate tire seminars. Both said and emphasized if we run the tire at a pressure that is 20% less than what is called for the tire is effectively not good for service. On reading the detail regarding causes of Zipper failure that was right there. I am not suggesting Bill did this, but I am pointing out that what happened to Bill could have been fatal and it behooves us to be very careful monitoring our tires and especialy careful filling them with air.

I have never ever seen anyone, professional or otherwise do anything other than lean over and air up a tire.

Michelin in their response to me appears to agree with that, but I think from Bill's experience we need to consider the consequences of doing that.

[AprilWhine]

Sorry to read of your injurys, glad it was the inside. Thank so much for the post.

I will be the first to come out and say it. This scares the hell out of me. I remember the days of split rim wheels, and knew two individuals by name that were killed by worn out split rims.

I will not check or air a tire again until I have a remote air line with clip on chuck and remote valve. Going shopping now.

Jim

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Bill, so sorry to hear of your traumatic event. I'm glad you are still of this world.

Keep us appraised of the details and analysis as it unfolds. Makes me not want to even wash/wipe the wheels for cleaning. I will wait for you to tell more, but I can't help wonder the circumstances that warranted the addition of air. How much air were you intending on adding to the affected tire, had it been seriously low during use or were you adjusting just a few pounds all around for perhaps a temperature change adjustment.


JIM:)

[Bill Price]

Jim:

We had been home from the POG Rally for a few weeks and I noticed a flat on the inside dual. I figured another valve stem extension leak. I replaced the old one with a new one and added two new rubber stabilizers. Having only a small pancake compressor I started adding air at a slow rate. On that axle I carry 95 lbs. I checked the progress with a Snap On digital guage as I would level out the air at 95 lbs. Somewhere around 95 lbs it blew.

The tire was cool and had not been run in weeks. Air pressure in the tire when I started adding air was zero lbs.

I hope I am making sense here as I am still on some strong meds. I will be more than glad to answer any questions as I dont want anyone else to be hurt by such a senseless accident. I would like to thank Jon Wehrenberg and Jim Skiff for there help in posting this matter.

[jack14r]

This is a horrible incident that has apparently really hurt Bill,I am wondering if a TPS like pressure Pro could have prevented this accident.GET WELL BILL!!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bill's accident (if it can be called an accident) was as a result of just airing up a tire. If he has tire pressure sensors they would show the pressure or lack of it, but may not have prevented Bill having to air up a tire.

We all (I assume) check tire pressures before we drive and if needed give them a shot of air. But as careful as we may be about pressures stuff happens. I had a nail end up through the sidewall of an inner dual, and for a while I had to make a few pounds of air pressure adjustment every time I drove. It could have been a bad Schrader valve, a leak at the valve stem where it comes out of the wheel, a bead not seating properly or a tire puncture. I couldn't feel anything in the tread so when I got home from the trip I started to check it found a nail where it would not have been expected in the sidewall.

My point is we are always going to have to air up tires. Sometimes only a pound or two, sometimes a little more, but what happened to Bill can happen to anyone, any time and a TPS will only tell when the tire needs air, but it won't prevent air from leaking.

I have "learned" my tires and what is normal. If I haven't used the bus for a month I have a high probability all my tires will not need air. But if during a month of storage the temps have gone from 80 down to freezing outside I can expect to have to put 3 or 4 PSI in two of the tires and about 1 or 2 in the others. So here I am doing what Bill did. Bending down pushing the air chuck on all eight tires and giving each one a small shot of air. You can bet what happened to Bill is now going to be in the front of my mind and now I have a real problem because I have no intention of using valve stem extensions, but I don't want to be near an explosion either.

[Bill Price]

Jon:

I do have TPMS on my bus. At no time on recent trips did I receive any sort of low pressure reading or faulty indicators. In all fairness one must also realize I bought the coach used from Liberty. Thus we do not have an absolute tire history. As for tire date we do have a DOT date of 1506 on the blown one.
Tread Design Pilote XZA1

FYI the four new tires on the drive axle are DOT dated:

3310

They have approx 11 miles on them. Am I afraid of them; you better believe it!

[merle&louise]

I called my friend Jay Nobles who owns Nobles Tire Service and has 30 years experience in the tire business. He told me that they can smell a Zippered tire (after examining it) when the customer drives up, and they will REFUSE to air up that tire. He agreed with the 20% rule about running a tire low and said if a person knows that the tire has been run low DO NOT AIR IT UP. He says that after it cools down an experienced tire mechanic can add about 30# and listen for hissing - that indicates a Zippered tire. If you hear this hissing DO NOT ADD MORE AIR - CHANGE THE TIRE!

Jay said that customers think that he is just trying to sell them a new tire but a Zippered tire is nothing to fool around with!

[jack14r]

My point was that Bill stated that the tire had no pressure,and I thought that it might have been run at too low a pressure and damaged the tire,but he has tire monitors and the alarm never went off.It sure seems like that the tire must have been defective.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If Bill parked the bus after Kerrville and had no alarms up to that point the presumption is it had the correct amount of air when parked. As an alternate consideration, the TPS failed to sound an alarm when the tire lost air.

It is entirely possible that from that time until he learned it had no air the tire was losing pressure from a leak that had not been known when parked. Unless Bill had those tires installed himself, he has no way of knowing if the tire had been run at low pressure by a previous owner.

Tuga's post reinforces what we were told by Goodyear and Michelin.

[AmeriStar]

I've heard of this happening. I guess I'm a little curious to what the air pressure was prior to adding air.
Usually 'zipper' purges are the result of operation of a low pressure tire for an extended period. The heat that builds up in the tire combined with the weakened sidewall are generally the primary culprit causing this to happen.
You were very lucky. Good luck in your suit.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

My point was that Bill stated that the tire had no pressure,and I thought that it might have been run at too low a pressure and damaged the tire,but he has tire monitors and the alarm never went off.It sure seems like that the tire must have been defective.

From what was told to this point I also made the same assumption as Jack.

I suppose one could coincidentally pull into the garage with pressure sensors and just before parking experience a leak that would not be noticeably alarmed because you left the bus unattended for a period of time as to loose major air. As I write this it comes to mind though there must have been an alarm or Bill wouldn't have been airing up the tire after changing a valve stem extension and bushing, this time. What was it last time? He did say there was a time before didn't he. Maybe the reason he thought he found was not the reason/cause at all. There are many unknowns to this. Does that tire sensor in fact function properly? Could a sensor possibly miss a low or high pressure? Not picking and pointing, just trying to understand as I do not relish or look forward to remote airing up under much stress to boot! I hope someone can point to a cause that will give us all piece of mind.

JIM :confused:

[Jerry Winchester]

I have been using a short hose with locking chuck since I bought the Supertank some years back. You can stand in front or behind the tire while you fill it. I've been in two tire explosions and while I was uninjured, both of the other guys with me were hurt - broken arm (guy reached into the cage we were airing the tire up in to remove the tire when the split rim lock ring blew off) and the other had a severely lacerated face.

I don't think its much to obsess about. Just don't stand facing the tire with your hand on the chuck.

[Bill Price]

Guys I am sorry I am not a better report writer. LOL I do appreciate your additional comments and thoughts.
Maybe this will help. I do want to keep investigating this for safety. There has to be a reasonable answer.
While in Kerrville I had a flat on the inside port dual. The tire people came out and found a leaking valve stem extension. THEY changed such and all was well. I did not have an extra extension or I would have changed both at that time. At that point all was well. I did maintain extra tire vigilance on the trip home just in case. Upon returning home I ordered extra extensions and rubber stabilizers from Prevost. After being home a few weeks I noticed the addditional flat. How long had it been flat I cant say? I am in the bus barn daily but i truthfully just cant say when the tire went flat.
I cannot point blame at the TPMS because the system had been setting there for weeks in sleep mode. Again on the trip home from Kerrville I would say we had a flawless event. I agree with Jon about ditching the extensions. Now how can I get a locking chuck in place to add air?

Of additional interest the tire being returned from Michelin should arrive here next week. Does anyone have any ideas from this point?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is not a good answer, but it is something to consider. I have been using these valve stem caps: http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-43-098.html

Since I started using them, incidents of having to constantly add a few pounds of air every time have dimished significantly. They supplement the Schrader valve so I have a double seal. They do not have to be removed for filling a tire. But for those who have TPS with the sensors that screw onto the valve stem these cannot be used. With the exception of TPS that uses internal sensors I am not going to consider a TPS because the sensors on the valve stems literally force you to use valve stem extensions on the duals and I am not comfortable with that or the fact that you are totally dependent on a single seal. At least with conventional valve stem caps they offer a second seal.

But getting back to my solution. In reading the causes of a zipper blowout it appears anyone that know the tire's history is unlikely to encounter a blowout unknowingly unless the tire had a manufacturing defect. I have to put that down as a risk I am prepared to take.

With my double seal fill through caps my straight tire chuck works on all tires without valve stem extensions, On the inner tires I always mount them with the inner stem 180 degrees opposed to the outer stem so I just stick the straight chuck that is about 6" long through the hole in the outer wheel, feel around a little and stick it right on the valve stem cap. The cap has ridges and they tend to hold the tire chuck in place until I get a pressure reading and fill if required. Since I know my tires (all were new since I bought the coach), and I know I never ran low pressure or hit any objects my safety program is to check and fill my tires as Jerry says by standing slightly to the side.

I realize what works for me right now in the absence of an ideal solution is not likely to work for anyone with TPS, and I also realize most with valve stem extensions are not going to give them up so my answer to this issue is not going to work for very many. I'm going to accept the fact that doing anything with our tires is a risk, but so is waking up in the morning and slipping in the shower.

I've had one complete engine failure and two partial failures (a cylinder went bad) and I still fly so I guess others would think me a risk taker.

[gmcbuffalo]

"Bill did you heard anything like a zipper noise? I have heard they call these zipper blow out because the first sound of it starting to blow is the "zipp" sound of the casing coming apart. The TPM could tell you early on that you are low pressure and therefore you would be able to fill up with air and not run on the tire for a long time with a low pressure.

[gmcbuffalo]

Looking at the amount of damage to Bill's fender shirts I think the 6-8 hose extension is the safest procedure.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Guys I am sorry I am not a better report writer. LOL I do appreciate your additional comments and thoughts.
Maybe this will help. I do want to keep investigating this for safety. There has to be a reasonable answer.
While in Kerrville I had a flat on the inside port dual. The tire people came out and found a leaking valve stem extension. THEY changed such and all was well. I did not have an extra extension or I would have changed both at that time. At that point all was well. I did maintain extra tire vigilance on the trip home just in case. Upon returning home I ordered extra extensions and rubber stabilizers from Prevost. After being home a few weeks I noticed the addditional flat. How long had it been flat I cant say? I am in the bus barn daily but i truthfully just cant say when the tire went flat.
I cannot point blame at the TPMS because the system had been setting there for weeks in sleep mode. Again on the trip home from Kerrville I would say we had a flawless event. I agree with Jon about ditching the extensions. Now how can I get a locking chuck in place to add air?

Of additional interest the tire being returned from Michelin should arrive here next week. Does anyone have any ideas from this point?

Bill, when did you find that flat and how or why. What is important to know is did you drive on the flat tire!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

This is a good read!

http://www.irsst.qc.ca/media/documents/PubIRSST/R-590.pdf


JIM

[Bill Price]

Jim:

I found the tire flat in my building approx three weeks after the POG Rally. I noticed it by the bulging outside dual. The coach was not driven on a low or flat tire since I have owned it.

As I bought the coach used I dont have a complete history of the tires. I think we would be accurate to say we have only two piecies of reliable evidence.

1. We do have a DOT tire date.

2. We know that since I have owned the coach the tires have never been driven low.

I check the tires each day while we are traveling. A Snap On digital tire gauge is used for this procedure.

I have Commercial, Instrument, multi-engine and commercial rotary wing ratings. The bus is pre-flighted daily while we are on the road. I take nothing for granted mechanically from my aviation background. I feel the preflight is most important for safety. Not to mention what this could save in uncesssary repairs.

I hope I answered some of your questions.

Jim I keep returning to the following:

1. Remain a minimum of 25 ft. from the tire.

2. Consider trajectory in case of a explosion

3. Wear OSHA approved impact resistant eye protection

4. Wear OSHA approved hearing protection


I am certainly open to suggestions.

Today I return to the Eye, Nose and Throat Dr for additional test. I am now up to three Er visits, and at least 5 regular Dr visits. The meds have been about as bad as the accident. I would much more enjoy being home today polishing on the bus!!

[Bill Price]

Greg and Huong:

@5 feet it the minimum safe distance. I had found that information on the www but sorry to say I did not save it in my favorites. However I do remember 25 ft as being the minimum safe distance.

[Bill Price]

That first number should read.


25 feet

[dmatz]

I think this would be a way to fill a tire from 20 feet away that could be kept on the coach?

http://www.myerstiresupply.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=726&info=Remote-Mount-Inflator

[mike kerley]

Each to his own devices, but if I have a tire completly flat or even close to it, I'm calling road service knowing that I'm most likely going to need a new tire! I'll not try to air it up on the bus!

[Bill Price]

Mike:

You certainely have my vote!! There are just those few times we dont have those luxurys.

I do agree; call road svc if at all possible.

[rahangman]

I am looking at a clip on type air chuck and am wondering how I can use the angle to attache to my outside dual, since the stem is inside the wheel. What does it take to move the stem from that position to say, north/south so that it would be infinetly easier to add air.

[dmatz]

I had a tire company come out and turn the two outside drive valve stems. It rook lesss than hour to complete both tires turn stems fill and remount. Not a big deal. Not sure why they all face in, there must be a reason.

[LNDYCHT]

I had a tire company come out and turn the two outside drive valve stems. It rook lesss than hour to complete both tires turn stems fill and remount. Not a big deal. Not sure why they all face in, there must be a reason.
The stems all face the same way so that the tire can be used in any position without turning the stem.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lee, You need to understand that POG members rotate the valve stems and add extensions so the big black sensor caps can be installed on the valve stems. It gives me the shakes to think about how some valve stems with extensions and caps are flexing while the tires are spinning but I don't know of another way those type sensors can be installed. The outer dual has the stem rotated 180 degrees so the cap which is quite large can be installed. Trying to install it while the stem points through the hole in the wheel is not practical

Your buses and mine likely have standard stems with no extensions and we just reach them with a long, straight chuck.

[LNDYCHT]

Lee, You need to understand that POG members rotate the valve stems and add extensions so the big black sensor caps can be installed on the valve stems. It gives me the shakes to think about how some valve stems with extensions and caps are flexing while the tires are spinning but I don't know of another way those type sensors can be installed. The outer dual has the stem rotated 180 degrees so the cap which is quite large can be installed. Trying to install it while the stem points through the hole in the wheel is not practical

Your buses and mine likely have standard stems with no extensions and we just reach them with a long, straight chuck.


Jon

My answer was in response to the question as to why all the stems face the same way. From the center of the rim to the mounting surface. I spooned tires on and off when I was a apprentice and the stems always face the same way so that no matter where the flat is the wheel can be fitted once.

If I were to install external tire pressure monitors on the outside dual of my coach they would be mounted on stubby stems. In fact if interchangeability is not a concern short stems could be used on all outside duals. This would make checking pressure and airing much easier.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

On your model coach you have an aluminum inner dual on the drive so theoretically any wheel can go at any position.

On later model buses when the wheels went from 8.25 to 9.00 the inner dual was a steel Budd wheel so now not all wheels are acceptable for all positions.

[AprilWhine]

Just ordered the Milton safety tire inflator this morning. Amazon was the solution for me, as I have no in with commercial tool suppliers. I feel much better with 15 feet between me and the tire. Link for the curious.

http://www.amazon.com/Milton-98-A1-501-Truck-Tire-Inflator/dp/B000IYKKMG/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1294337264&sr=8-4

[Bill Price]

Sir:

You are one of the smart ones for ordering a device to stand clear !! Be sure you purchase a locking chuck and additional hose to meet the 25 ft requirement. Dont forget the OSHA approved eye protection and a set of David Clark hearing protectors. I continue to suffer with the after effects from my event. The Dr. told me Wednesday I have post concusion syndrome along with barotrauma. The post concusion syndrome recovery time can be up to one year. The ENT Doctors at Scott & White in Temple, Texas tell me two years for the ears to heal. This is not a fast recovery. So far 10 Doctor visits 3 ER visits. Needless to say our traveling is on hold ! Guys spend the small amount of money and get set up safely to deal with your tires !!! It is not worth the chance of going thru this.

[AprilWhine]

Thanks for the reminder about the length Bill. I will extend the hose. The Milton safety setup includes a self latching chuck, it will remain to be seen how well it works. If I am not happy with it, I will investigate the newer locking valve stems that are available now. Looking at my car hauler yesterday, I have it slated to use the safety inflater set up with it also. ST trailer tires don't have the best reputation.

I checked online for tire failures, they are not that common, but the injuries are severe to fatal. A tire shop installed a new tire on a rim, using a cage, left the assembly in the safety cage for 2 hours. The driver removed the assembly from the cage and checked the tire pressure, and the tire exploded. No inflation, just handling.

I totally relate to your trauma. Several years ago I fell and suffered a concussion, took perscription seasick medicine for 6 months so that I could walk a straight line. I hope your recovery is rapid.

Jim

[Bill Price]

I wanted to provide a update this morning on my on going experience after the tire explosion.
What I really want to do is to remind everyone to get set up to air up your tires 25 feet away. I dont sell or have anything to do with the tire eqpt. nor do I have a axe to grind with the tire mfgs..

Here is were I am now.
After being overdosed with predisone around Christmas that set me back at least 30 days. That took around 3 trips to the ER to get that one worked out. Being overdosed I had to get off predisone cold turkey which is another experience we want go into here. Next up was a 6 hour trip one way to Scott & White Hospital in Temple , Texas for additional hearing exams. They determined I have 100% in my left ear and 90% in my right ear. The doctors were amazed and so was I to say the least. I have slight tinnitus in my right ear which they will began treatment for Wednesday at Calliers Center a division of The Univ. of Texas Health Science Center Wednesday in Dallas, Texas. That will go on for 4 months to 2 years.
The next thing they discovered is I have post concussion syndrome which takes 6 months to 1 year to recover from with medication. Full ear recovery or I should say as good as it will ever be will take two years according to the head of Scott & White ENT Department. I am in pain most of the day with headaches, stuffy ears, nausea and tinnitus in the right ear.
I am lucky as we have insurance to cover all this mess.
The bus is now sold and our travel plans are scrubbed for now.

So after reading this short update ask yourself is it worth buying the proper safety eqpt.?

[Bill Price]

I do want to add the new owner of my 2001 Liberty will be joining POG. We told him what a great group this is and how much fun we had at Kerrville. He and his wife are great people. I want divulge the new owner as that is his business. He and his wife will be great members. He has great technicial knowledge of the Series 60 Detroit.

[Dthomas9572]

Hello All,

After reading this thread I understand I need to take precautions. Please clarify if this is correct. I have ordered the following from Myers 1) Inflation gauge with hose part 54930, 2) 25 foot extension hose and 3) Clip on air chuck.

I am assuming when I get these, air tank placed 25 feet away, air chuck clipped to tire then air up tire. Correct? I would assume it is fine to check the tire pressure with a gauge next to the tire as there should not be a safety issue with this? In an earlier it was said to order a few chip on chucks. Is this needed? Or is one fine.

Thanks everyone!!

[Gil_J]

Are you going to be mounting your own tires? If not, there's no safety concerns with doing routine inflation checks and adding adding air while standing at the tire. If you are doing your own tire mounting the tire and wheel should be caged before inflating. Tire explosions as a result of mounting are no where near as frequent or as deadly as they were in the split rim days, but it still happens occasionally. Again, the safety precautions are solely for tire installations although some might argue the precautions apply to flat were the tire bead has broken.

[Dthomas9572]

Hi Gil,

I am confused. The whole basis of this thread is that a POG member was just airing up tires in his garage. It was an inside drive tire and that probably saved his life.

[Gil_J]

I guess you can never be too safe. I'm not aware of any truck tire place that airs up a tire that's a few pounds low with this level of safety. I guess the lesson here is that when in doubt, call a road service. The tire that failed had a zipper failure that you may have read about in one of the references. It's not likely to be a manufacturing flaw given the tire wasn't new. Of course, anything is possible. What was known was that the tire was flat some time before the incident and a valve stem extension was replaced. Also know is that it was flat again just prior to the explosion. If you don't know for sure that the tire was properly inflated prior to being parked and later discovered to be flat, you might want to call a road service. If the tires was ran at extremely low pressure it could explain what happened. I'm not suggesting that to be the case. I'm simply saying if you don't know, have it checked by a professional. In fact, it should probably be dismounted to inspect the internal sidewalls.

Yes, this was bad situation were someone got hurt. I certainly don't want to downplay what happened. I just have never seen professionals take the safety measures suggested.