Maintenance Records

[Jon Wehrenberg]

From time to time we have discussions from coach buyers in which the coach for sale has been "well maintained", or that all service was done by Prevost or the converter, etc.

I think we are coming slowly out of a period where sellers have been beat up on pricing and some coaches have been sold at prices that don't even come close to the real value. I am concerned that when a coach with a high value is bought at prices so low as to be ridiculous that if the buyer is a bottom feeder who is struggling to put together the money to make the purchase (one of the reasons for the low price) that future maintenance might suffer. I am also concerned that people who do an excellent job of maintenance are not documenting that maintenance so future buyers will not really be able to discern if the coach has or has not been maintained.

Maintenance is not fixing something when it breaks. That's a repair. Maintenance is developing a schedule for care that is based on the owner's standards for maintenance. Obviously the Prevost maintenance schedule for our coaches is a good starting point for developing your own schedule, but however the maintenance plan is structured it should be followed.

Doing the maintenance is not enough. If you never ever intend to sell the coach, the only thing keeping records does is help you remember when to replace the air dryer. But if you anticipate a sale in the future, no matter how far out that might be, then maintaining the maintenance records is probably going to add more value to the coach than a new dinette.

There is too much on our coaches that must be maintained for anyone to keep track of. We have components that need maintenance based on miles, components that age out based on the calendar and others that get maintained based on condition. By keeping a running record of work performed you not only have an easy way to schedule the next maintenance, but when the time comes to sell the new owner can pick up where you left off and not have to wonder if it is time to change coolant or Transynd.

I mentioned earlier about ads which list Prevost or converter performed maintenance. I am sure that work is of high quality, but nobody but an owner can pull together the maintenance schedules from all we have to maintain such as tires, batteries, air conditioning filters, generator, engine, transmission, water system, etc. No commercial service facility in the world is going to pay attention to the details like you will and certainly none of them will do the research to find when you last cleaned the AC filters, or polished your slack adjusters (just kidding except for Kevin and David).

So if you want to add serious money to the value of your coach pull together all of the owner's manuals and start setting up and keeping your coach's maintenance history.

[AprilWhine]

Real value is what someone will pay for a coach.

Perhaps if you bought up all the coaches that are "Too Cheap" for twice what the owner is willing to sell it for, store them in your garage until the "Right kind of buyer" came along, you could single handedly pull the value of used Prevosts up.

We paid what the seller was asking for our coach. We have been told by POG members that we paid too much, now we are classed as bottom feeders for not paying what YOU think is the correct price?

What maintainance did I neglect by replacing the dinette in our coach?

What type of buyer do you think is going to be looking for a 14 year old coach with 220,000 miles on it? Where is the dividing line, replacing Michelins with Double Coin?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

I wasn't even thinking of you when I penned the above words, but of a couple of sales of coaches dumped by lending institutions for nowhere near their true value. A guy could sell them for parts and make money. Most of us bought our coaches for fair prices through a dealer or individual. One coach sale I know of was on a coach which would have a value in today's market of $200,000 or more. Nice coach, good colors. appears to have no mechaniical issues, OTR, well established converter, and it sold for just over $100,000. Your coach and mine just went down in value.

The dinette comment was a jab at the King who commented on your other post.

Since I have no intention of selling my coach any time soon I haven't a clue who would buy a coach with 233,000 miles (now) or Double Coin tires.

You and I need to be concerned about coaches selling too cheap. And coaches not well maintained. When and if we decide to sell or trade if coaches are selling so cheap that the marketplace decides that is normal every one of us loses. Those who own coaches see a level of depreciation that literally turns them off and they just walk away from future purchases because of the loss when they do sell. When buyers get into a $60,000 Prevost compared to a buyer of a $200,000 Prevost the ability to pay for the required maintenance is presumed to be better for the guy buying the more expensive coach. The price of the coach doesn't matter because your coach and mine cost the same to properly maintain as a $60,000 coach or a $500,000 coach. So I think it is safe to presume the guy who "stole" a coach has less incentive to maintain it and his philosophy becomes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

When coaches are not maintained and hit the market, that shoddy maintenance shows up as exceptional costs to the buyer who in turn makes sure the world knows it costs tens of thousands of dollars to maintain a coach. That's not true, but if not maintained that's what it can easily cost to bring one into decent shape, and I am not talking about interior or paint, just mechanical stuff.

No need to get defensive, because I have no clue what you paid, nor does it matter. The only people qualified to judge is the purchaser. My concerns are about the purchases that have an adverse impact on us as a whole, and when the market started to tank we devoted a lot of bandwidth opining on that topic.

[AprilWhine]

There is no easy money available to support high dollar purchases. Esentially what you are left with are the people who have saved enough money to pay cash for a coach, no matter what the price.

IMHO, people who have saved enough money to pay cash for a Prevost conversion are the type people who want the best value for their money.

Sherry and I own two homes, and in the current economy, wish we didn't. The prices of all goods in this country are taking dives, except for fast food. I don't believe that I will live long enough to see the easy money come back.

My Prevost will be worth a higher percentage of the purchase price in 10 years than the Winnebago we traded in will be in the next 10 years. We will get to enjoy it, and what it is worth when we sell it will depend on the perceived condition of it by the buyer, and Most of all, the condition of the economy. We bought it to use, travel in, and enjoy.

Paranoia about what it will be worth in 10 years is not really in my agends. I may not be here in 10 years. I will maintain it in the manner I maintain all of the vehicles that I have ever owned. An expert may pass on my coach when I chose to sell it, however there is always another bottom feeder who will buy it. ;)

Any one who buys something that rusts as an investment is a dreamer.

Jim

[AprilWhine]

Sherry here.

Jon, I see your point but it is moot. :) Look at the sales of 25 year old Bluebird Wanderlodges to see the future. Some people, whether bottom feeders or not, view the bus conversions as bullet proof and do not do any maintenance. It's just human nature and something you have to live with.

As fuzzy Jim pointed out, these coaches are not cheap. Someone buying a coach over 10 years old is probably paying cash. If all they have is the $57k that Mr Oliver's RVs is asking for his cheapest coach, do you really think they will not take as good care of it as someone who pays $500k for one when that $500k is just pocket change? When I was 16, I took all the money I had earned for two years to buy an old used Vauxhall. Yes, it was a POS, but it was MY POS! :D I took really good care of it and managed to get another three years use before it made the inevitable trip to the great junkyard in the sky. :)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Wanna bet on that paying cash theory? I don't gamble but I would put serious money on a wager that a substantial, if not majority of the coaches owned today are financed.

That is part of the reason why the market is in the toilet. Yes there are people with cash making good deals, but there are folks who also finance these coaches, and when the market tanks and puts people upside down, lending institutions get nervous and irrational.

No coach purchase makes sense. They are the dumbest things anyone can buy. They depreciate, they cost a lot of money to maintain, and no matter how nice our coaches are, they keep making nicer ones and we want to keep pouring money into our dumb purchase. But it is a lifestyle that has no parallel. And as an owner I want to keep the prices from going in the toilet, not because I am selling, not because I want someone else to lose on a real steal, but because when the fit hits the shan as it did a couple of years back we not only lose money if or when we sell, but because the very people we depend upon to service and sell us coaches and parts and upgrades get a poke in the shorts also. As they disappear because they cannot survive then we really start to feel the pinch.

To accept a rapidly declining market is like whistling in the graveyard. If each of your two houses had meth labs in the house next door, and both of those houses were taped off with yellow hazardous waste site tape, even though your own house was prefectly maintained and priced fairly your only chance to sell would be to someone that could care less how you feel about your property and what it is worth. All of a sudden you may understand why none of us should be happy when our prices are artificially depressed.

If you negotiated fair and square with an owner or dealer to buiy your coach and it was not a forced sale you paid fair market price. You are not a bottom feeder (my term and I accept responsibility for using it).

[rfoster]

What? What? Sure a Dinette adds value - don't it? Jab me? How dare you. I'm tellin on you.

[phorner]

Getting a bit closer to back on topic, I purchased a surveyor's field book to keep maintenance records in. It's compact and the pages are already lined and divided into columns.

I keep a running log of EVERYTHING done to the bus (and the car as well, for that matter) making note of date, mileage (or hours as the case may be), description of the work, where performed and cost. I also keep all receipts.... for everything, to back up my log book.

Now, when the time comes for us to sell our beloved bus, the eventual buyer may not care a lick about my log book. It will probably ALWAYS mean more to me than anyone else, but I have to believe that an informed buyer will surely understand the value of a maintained bus versus one that has no real proof of proper care.

Sometimes beauty is more than clear coat deep.

FWIW......

[Orren Zook]

OK Jon, let me see if I have this right: Prevost ownership is the most efficient way to turn money into diesel emissions.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

As we say in the flying business, we convert money into noise.

[JIM KELLER]

Jon, Buying our Bus is not the dumbest thing " I " have ever done.

[Gary Carmichael]

Interesting conversation, I spent a lot of time and grief getting all the service and maintenance records together for my coach, Thanks to the previous owners help with Prevost I have them all." Prevost would not give them to me" . I feel that when I sell this coach,the new owner will feel better knowing the bus was well cared for! I am not a mechanic, nor electrician, and get work done by Prevost and others on this POG site. I make sure to service and check the bus regularly for potential problems. Just sort of gives you piece of mind.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OK, poor choice of words. But if we step back and quantify what we get for the money the purchase makes no sense.

When we who do not full time it in the coach measure the cost per night of use we could be spending our nights away from home in the Ritz Carlton like Tuga says he will be doing. Just the estimated depreciation on my 2 coaches is approximately $260,000. If I start to add in the fuel, maintenance, repairs, upgrades, campground expense, insurance, licenses, and broken fingernails from fixing things we are talking real money. Probably $500,000 for our 20 years spent hollering at other drivers. The depreciation would have gone up significantly if our purchases were newer and more expensive.

Could we or would we have as much enjoyment traveling on $25,000 a year? Maybe, but I doubt it so I guess dumb wasn't accurate. If we did not have the bus, and we had to use commercial airlines (or even our plane) we wouldn't travel as much or see all that we can and do in the bus. There is nothing appealing about a hotel room or sharing a restroom with about 10,000 of our closest friends. In that respect nothing beats the coach.

But if we look at it as business owners it wouldn't seem to be the brightest decision.

[Loc]

Jon,

I am a big believer in keeping detailed maintenance records on the bus. I have two logs that I keep in the bus. The first is a log of every day we somewhere in the bus. It has the date, beginning / ending mileage, starting point and ending point for that day. I also have a comment section where I can put comments about things done, people met or places visited for that day. The second log tracks every service or fill up (anything done to the bus). It includes date, mileage, service provider, type of service, location, and what was done or gallons and cost of fuel. In addition I keep every receipt for every thing for the bus - fuel, service, etc. I do this for me. I think that it helped me sell my first Prevost because it gave the purchasers some confidence that the bus had been serviced. I will try to find my logs next week and post a copy of them. There are Excel spreadsheets.

Happy Holidays,

Loc

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My bus was formally owned by another POG member, Kim Sloan. At the time I did not know the status of the maintenance on anything except all indications were the coach had been well maintained. It was. But in the absence of records I zeroed all maintenance. I literally changed every drop of fluid and every filter, installed all new belts, and polished the slack adjusters.

For almost a week I lived in my pit working on the bus and inspecting everything I could. My point is if the records of the maintenance status had been available when I took possession I'm sure most of what I did that first week would not have been required. I'm lucky because I turn my own wrenches and have a great place to do so. But most owners are not in that position.

When someone takes possession of a new-to-them coach what does it cost to get the maintenance on schedule? In my case I replaced all batteries, changed engine oil, oil filters, fuel filters, air filter, transmission fluid and filters (Transynd), coolant, coolant conditioning filter, belts, etc. Then I spent hours doing the various inspections of things like brakes, AC filters (and cleaning them), hubs, lubing the entire coach, light checks, etc. Then within the first year I changed all air bags, brake chambers and all Norgren valves. All tires were within the age range, but the fronts were so-so and they were replaced.

I get tired just thinking about this. If I had to have Prevost or someone else do this I would have spent serious money. But now, because even when starting from zero as though it were a new coach, I don't have too many items due at the same time. That means if a new owner were to pick up my schedule right now it needs an oil change and lube in 1300 miles and that's it. Tires are becoming due on some of them in 2 years, but look good so that might not be required, batteries are due in four years, Transynd in 2, brake chambers in 5 and coolant change in 6 years. All that means is a new owner can shield himself from the serious money and effort I spent because he has the details. That helps make my bus more valuable and saves the new owner money, a win-win.

I also log every mile driven and every gallon of fuel put into the coach and the price per gallon. I note where we have been. No long stories, just a few words. I record if we were towing. So while I may not be able to detail every day in the coach I have a fair idea of where we were and why. That history will not go with the coach because we can match up photos we took and be able to know when we took them. We have a lot of memories.

Just as a tidbit, we paid as little as $.63 for diesel fuel, and at one time over $5.00. The low priced diesel was not an anomoly because for several months that was where it was priced with it being available for that price in GA and on the Seneca Indian reservation in western NY state.

[aggies09]

I am in complete agreement that a well organized history of service for your coach will certainly add value somewhere down the road. I know that there are some of our members that have very detailed systems. If I remember right, Jim Shoen keeps a complete digital copy of every receipt and repair ticket. With today's technology this is getting easier to do and is certainly easy to share when required to do so.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

But if we were to take a poll I wonder what percentage of owners had the records or access to them on the day they got the keys.

The new owner of my first coach had every service logged and every shred of paper relating to service from 1988 when it was delivered until it was sold in 2005. It filled an entire file box.

You have a hard time selling a plane without logs because they are required to prove airworthiness. I treat the bus records as equally important.

[GDeen]

A-1, I couldn't agree more with the intended spirit of your treatise on the value proposition of maintenance.

Although I am not as detailed as some, we are keeping records of all trips and maintenance with our coach. I say we because Jennifer is the designated scribe for our log book since her writing is so much prettier than mine (legible). I did have a do-better talk with myself about making more detailed notes on parks and travel related highlights and lowlights in the coming year. Either that or just put Loc Star on speed dial.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gordo,

I HAVE to keep good records because I cannot remember stuff anymore. Without those records I have no clue when service is due. This is meant in all seriousness because our coach maintenance has so many different intervals, unlike an old car where you just did it all every 3000 miles we have far to many maintenance events, some of which are very important that I can't leave it to chance.

The King's former coach is a good example of the value of records. With apologies to him and Jim for getting specific, when Roger and I changed out his air bags there were two that were almost new. Had he had service logs or records he could have saved $250 and a couple of hours labor.

[Gary Carmichael]

Jon, diesel at .63 cents a gallon? That must have been BC "before cars" Hope those good ole days return,but know they wiil not!

[AprilWhine]

I have plenty of memory, at least 250 gigs. ;)

Seriously though, I keep track of scheduled maintenance on both our vehicles and selves. I keep a tickle file with an online calendar set up to email reminders to me. :) And keep an Excel file of service as completed.

Fuzzy and I are both due for service next months, the bus not for a bit longer.

Cheers,
Sherry

[gmcbuffalo]

When I got my diesel Audi in 1980 diesel prices were less then regular gas.

One thing I don't understand is why Prevost is relucant to give us the maintaince records on our buses done by previous owners. i don't need to know anything about the owner, just the bus.

[garyde]

Hi Jon. While I agree with you fully regarding maintenance, The price depreciation in the Market place presently and in the future has little to do with maintenance. The values of our Coaches have declined
over 50 percent or more in the last 3 years. The Market is depressed by financing, too many sellers, and not enough buyers.
Now, when someone is ready to purchase, and they look at two coaches side by side. One with maintenance records, the other not. All things being equal, which they never are, a discerning buyer should purchase the one with the records. But he isn't going to pay a substantial premium . Its all about the market place.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Maybe a buyer will not pay more for a bus with good maintenance records and history, but as you say all things being equal that is the bus that gets sold.

In my opinion then the seller of a bus without a good provable maintenance history gets to keep his bus longer, incur more expenses while hanging on to it, and if you can go by ads on various sites, he gets to lower his price while he awaits a buyer.

Fortunately for sellers of coaches without good maintenance or good records there are buyers who place colors and decor higher on their priority list.

[garyde]

If we say , like Kelly Blue Book, a rating of say Excelent, Good, or Fair. The buyer would have at least a definable rating to see. But in the Conversion Bus industry it is not defined. To a great degree it is subjective first and then some kind of verification of condition. Maybe we should develop our own POG based rating .

[Sawbonz]

Jon,

I am a big believer in keeping detailed maintenance records on the bus. I have two logs that I keep in the bus. The first is a log of every day we somewhere in the bus. It has the date, beginning / ending mileage, starting point and ending point for that day. I also have a comment section where I can put comments about things done, people met or places visited for that day. The second log tracks every service or fill up (anything done to the bus). It includes date, mileage, service provider, type of service, location, and what was done or gallons and cost of fuel. In addition I keep every receipt for every thing for the bus - fuel, service, etc. I do this for me. I think that it helped me sell my first Prevost because it gave the purchasers some confidence that the bus had been serviced. I will try to find my logs next week and post a copy of them. There are Excel spreadsheets.

Happy Holidays,

Loc

I would pull my hair out. If I had any.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Ditto to Loc's statement. I try to keep logs just as he does. We keep a journal in the bus for each year. Also it helps alot when preparing taxes each year. All the receipts are right there. I like to look at it also and get a few laughs with some of the happenings of the days!!!
Sandy