Why We Need to be Vigilant

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This week I have been poking around watching the progress on a POG member's coach as it gets some repairs and preventive maintenance.

One of the repairs was not anticipated and that was a leaky hub seal. What makes this one special is at some point a technician replaced the original hub seal (prior to our POG member's purchase of the coach) and the replacement was installed backwards. That replacement was due to fail before the coach rolled its first mile.

I bring this up because this repair may have been made by someone professing they knew what they were doing, but clearly they did not. It could be excused except for one very important fact. Hub seals are clearly marked "bearing side" to prevent an error such as the one that produced the condition pictured below.

7688

My reason for posting this is to try to stress that it is important when getting a service provider that consideration be given to not only the skill levels, but that provider's ability to stand behind the work.

[LNDYCHT]

That's a costly mistake which could have been much worse if not caught early. Although the seal was installed wrong the same results could happen with a defective seal or poorly installed one. You must know your coach and check it on a regular basis. Be an Operator not a driver.

Any one can make a mistake, to install the seal backwards and not catch it is definitely poor quality work. Further to that the person who did this job is not a "technician", they are a parts changer, almost any one can change out parts. A technician knows which way the seal goes and rechecks the direction after installing it in the hub. The dirtier the work the less a senior tech wants to do it. From my experience grease, oil and brake dust are avoided when possible.

I am a service provider and know how hard it is to get good technicians. Find a service provider that you trust or is recommended and stay with them.

"The bitter taste of poor quality lingers far longer than the initial sweetness of a cheap price"

" BE VIGILANT"

[phorner]

Excellent commentary. During my most recent visit to Prevost Jacksonville, it was discovered that the inner seal of my drivers side tag axle was leaking. I watched the replacement work but, as luck would have it, the brand new seal still leaked a bit the next morning and was replaced as a warranty issue that day.

Even new parts can be defective (and it appears the likelihood gets better every year) and as Jon stated, it's important to feel confident that the technician/service facility/parts supplier will stand behind their work and/or product. Anyone can look good when everything goes perfectly. It's the reaction when a problem arises that distinguishes the best from the rest as far as I'm concerned.

Glad you caught this before a more serious problem developed.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul and others,

Replacing a hub seal is not rocket science, but it appears Volvo lacks employees with the needed skill levels to even do that right. I know this is very harsh and will accept whatever criticism comes my way for shooting my mouth off in this way.

But a hub seal is a simple device, the replacement of which only requires a little care. First, after removing the hub and cleaning everything the new seal can be installed. The seal must be inserted absolutely straight. There is a specific tool for doing that or the installer can use a flat plate or board and tap gently in a circular fashion to push the seal until it is seated in position.

At that point verify the seal has not been damaged in the installation, other than visually verifying there are no dents or deformities to the seal, all that is required is to verify the inner portion of the seal rotates freely within the outer portion. If it won't rotate, remove the seal and start again with a new one.

Then when installing the hub with the new seal it is important the hub go over the shaft straight. I insure both bearings are lined up and against their respective outer races and the the seal has not bumped up against or been levered against anything when lining up the hub. Once the hub makes contact with the shiny portion of the shaft I push it on slowly but forcefully. The key is protecting the seal. they will last for hundreds of thousands of miles without leaking a drop, but if they are deformed or otherwise damaged during their installation or installing of the hub they have to be replaced. It just takes care.

Others on this forum have installed hub seals and I am willing to further shoot from the lip and say the track record is quite good. Maybe that is because we really care.

Volvo does deserve praise for checking it and replacing it with no cost to you.

[Prevost1111]

Great post Jon and great advice. It seems like it takes me forever sometime when i am in a place that i need to find a provider that i don't know but so far the extra time checking the person or place out has worked good for me. Merry xmas

[phorner]

Jon,

I completely agree with your comments.

I have had brand new thermostats that failed to open, brand new Norgren valves that leaked internally, brand new light fixtures that weren't tapped to receive the lens screws and even brand new body panels that needed straightening before use.

My only point was that it appears that it is also getting harder to trust that "new" part being installed. Maybe it's due to outsourcing more of our parts manufacturing, maybe it's simply an eroding work ethic of the folks making the parts or maybe it's simply passing on the quality control function to the end user to save cost. I don't know.

But it sure is frustrating to spend a lot of time and effort (and money) trying to do the job right the first time only to find out that the new part you just spent several hours installing needs to be returned for another.

Unfortunately, it has also been my experience that we need to be just as vigilant with the guy behind the parts counter.....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul gets a prize for pointing out what is sadly becoming common.

I have learned to bench test Norgrens before I install them because they are such a pain to replace. I'm not speaking of the time doing the removal and replacement, but chasing which valve in the systems have decided to not work.

I know of POG members who live north of me that had two brand new air bags in a row leak. The third one was OK, but you can imagine how frustrating that deal was. They not only had to go to considerable effort to find the leak, but then had to arm wrestle with Volvo because it was so unbelievable that the air bags would have a leak and especially two in a row. I wonder who got those air bags that were returned?

My new dash camera isn't in my bus, but was returned because it puked before I got the bus out of the garage. Maybe the replacement will work.

I'll bet there are still POG members whose bus will barely come up to ride height in the front because Volvo showed the incorrect part number for front air bags, and then argued like crazy for about a year that they had not made a mistake. The parts now specified are correct, but what happens to the folks who are driving around with the wrong air bags on the front of their bus?

I don't know how we can protect ourselves, and what's worse, if we take our coaches to other than Volvo for maintenance or repairs who ends up eating the extra cost associated with getting wrong or defective parts?

This is not a problem exclusive to our coaches.

[Gary Carmichael]

Well as a newbie, I bought a Prevost because of the "quality of construction" I am now seeing and hearing that they too! are mere mortals. I know that I will face some of the problems that are being noted here down the road, I am glad to be a part of this group,a lot of info to be had! Still I am a little saddened that Prevost Quality control is a bit slack to say the least! I guess with parts, and repair, hopefully the QC on the line is better, I mean after all, that's why we pay big bucks for these machines.

[AprilWhine]

Well as a newbie, I bought a Prevost because of the "quality of construction" I am now seeing and hearing that they too! are mere mortals. I know that I will face some of the problems that are being noted here down the road, I am glad to be a part of this group,a lot of info to be had! Still I am a little saddened that Prevost Quality control is a bit slack to say the least! I guess with parts, and repair, hopefully the QC on the line is better, I mean after all, that's why we pay big bucks for these machines.

We don't have that much experience with Prevost, as this is our first, however Sherry and I have extensive experience with automotive forums. You sort of have to force yourself to keep trouble reports in perspective. For every failure that gets reported, there are the great majority that do not have that problem. Problems get vented, or posted for help. Pick any automotive forum, and all you read about is the people having problems. I am sure that we will have systems failures over the coming years, but we anticipate that they will not be as frequent as the ones we were having in our plastic coach. If we do have a problem, I believe that it will be easier to fix or have fixed than the problems we were having with the plastic coach.

I did have to replace a broken door bell intercom, and I never had that problem on the plastic coach. Of course, it did not have an intercom. :)

Jim

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Because we have Prevost coaches it does not mean they are totally free of problems or that they never need repairs.

But it does mean while lesser quality coaches are long gone ours will still be providing years of service. I suspect strongly that most problems we encounter can be attributable to a prevailing attitude today in which nobody wants to accept responsibility. As a former business owner I can say it is hard to get people to step up and accept responsibility. For us to have traceability and to have everyone know they were accountable the goods we produced had "signatures". The people responsible for the construction of the products put their mark on the product so if it was ever returned due to defects we could go to the responsible employee.

Nowadays it seems it is always someone else's fault. Our folks got paid for building the product. They did not get paid for building it over. It came out of their bonus. I suspect if every business used our method and held the employees responsible for repairing their own work on their own time it would happen a whole lot less.

Of course we as customers have to understand we have to allow people adequate time to do work right and not complain when it takes longer than we think it should take. I'm not advocating we pay for time wasting, but I am saying it takes time to do some jobs right so they don't have to get done over.

[Woody]

Because we have Prevost coaches it does not mean they are totally free of problems or that they never need repairs.

But it does mean while lesser quality coaches are long gone ours will still be providing years of service. I suspect strongly that most problems we encounter can be attributable to a prevailing attitude today in which nobody wants to accept responsibility. As a former business owner I can say it is hard to get people to step up and accept responsibility. For us to have traceability and to have everyone know they were accountable the goods we produced had "signatures". The people responsible for the construction of the products put their mark on the product so if it was ever returned due to defects we could go to the responsible employee.

Nowadays it seems it is always someone else's fault. Our folks got paid for building the product. They did not get paid for building it over. It came out of their bonus. I suspect if every business used our method and held the employees responsible for repairing their own work on their own time it would happen a whole lot less.

Of course we as customers have to understand we have to allow people adequate time to do work right and not complain when it takes longer than we think it should take. I'm not advocating we pay for time wasting, but I am saying it takes time to do some jobs right so they don't have to get done over.

My vote is for Jon to head the Commerce Dept and straighten this GOVMENT out!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't think I would be too popular with the government employees, and there would be a whole lot of changes in the laws and regulations, especially those that allow people to collect checks without doing anything for them. Don't start as Ken Brewer says.

Unless I am sadly mistaken I think any POG member would be a good candidate to clean up the mess we have.

[michaeldterry]

I move that we start a grassroots campaign (POG Party anyone?) to draft Jon for President! (and I'm only half joking)...

[phorner]

I suppose that it would be easy for a newcomer to the forum to perhaps browse the postings and arrive at the conclusion that the majority of us have an abundance of problems with our buses. I guess that's because we hardly ever take the time to recount the thousands of trouble-free and completely enjoyable miles that we have collectively driven. There probably is a disproportionate number of posts dealing with repairs.

Since we live full time in our coach, and travel at least 6 months out of the year, safety, durability, and livability were our priorities. Having owned our share of "plastic" coaches, (they were all quite nice, really), not one of them could even begin to compare to the quality of a Prevost converted bus.

Jon said it best. When those "other brands" are long gone, or simply are no longer supported with parts, our Prevost bus will still have thousands (likely hundreds of thousands) of miles yet to go.

These are truly commercial-duty machines with redundant systems that require a kind of perpetual maintenance routine. Our biggest deterrent to keeping cash in our pockets is depreciation, and that occurs no matter what motorhome you own.

These buses truly are a pleasure to travel this great country in.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have had two buses since 1990. I put 250,000 miles on the first. I can count on the fingers of one hand, with three of them blown off, the number of times I had on-road unscheduled incidents in the 15 years of ownership.

One was a defective 28 pin connector into the transmission that was giving faulty codes, and the second was a broken tie rod end on the radiator fan belt tensioner.

That does not mean I did not make other repairs. Over the years I had numerous minor issues that were resolved as part of the maintenance and associated inspections, such as hub seals, and I also had a hairline crack in one cylinder head.

Of course I had a bus fire but that was not a result of poor quality on the Prevost, but a direct result of an AC technician that replaced the AC compressor and left off parts that Prevost installed because in his opinion we didn't need them.