COOLANT CHANGE

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The coolant change project is well under way. It is a huge time consumer.

But I am encouraged at what the end result will be. I am changing from Power Cool which requires SCAs to an EC-1 spec extended life coolant. While I would prefer to use the Detroit Diesel extended life product they only offer it in a 50/50 mix here in Knoxville which will not work for me as explained below. Instead I will use the CAT coolant and as in all extended life coolants it is an OAT (organic acid technology) and it is the standard everyone else meets. As it turns out the pricing is not far off what I can get an ELC for at Truck Pro. Concentrate is $21.48 a gallon and pre-mix is $11.55.

I am assuming my listed cooling system capacity of 24 gallons is correct. I have OTR and Webasto so in addition to the engine, my system also contains a large volume of coolant in the heat exchangers in the OTR as well as in the Webasto and the HW tank. I have no illusions about being able to drain the system without some serious disassembly and I am not about to do that.

So I drain what I can at the petcock at the base of the radiator or the lowest coolant pipe from the radiator. When I do that I can drain 15 gallons leaving 9 gallons spread amongst all the piping in the house and the OTR system and the HW tank heat exchanger plus the transmission intercooler.

The first step is to flush out as much of the old Power Cool as possible. So four times now I have drained 15 gallons from the system and refilled with fresh water. At the last drain the water was almost clear with a pink tinge. The EC-1 coolant can tolerate up to 10% SCA coolant so I am OK if I fill the system now, but I am first going to flush the radiator and also change a pair of hoses on the Webasto system that need to be replaced. After each drain I run the Webasto, the engine at high idle and the OTR heat system at the highest temperature setting. I think this has circulated the fresh water throughout the entire system so I am draining the old coolant as well as possible.

Changing the hoses will drain more of the house portion so on the next fresh water fill I will have almost completely removed the old coolant. With each drain and refill I added 15 gallons to 9 gallons of contaminated coolant (the kind with SCAs) so by the time I am ready to clean and flush the radiator I will have maybe a few quarts of coolant with SCAs spread throughout the 24 gallon system. Theoretically I can have 2.4 gallons of 50/50 mix of old coolant and still be OK.

I will flush the radiator tomorrow or the next day. When I do that I intend to shut off every system valve isolating the bus engine from the balance of the system. The reason for this is to minimize the possibility I will contaminate the whole system with the harsh chemicals used to flush the radiator. I will flush that out at least three or four times to make every effort no radiator flush chemicals are in the system to contaminate the new coolant.

Assuming my system will retain 9 gallons just by using the drains mentioned previously, I will add nine gallons of concentrate so I have a 50/50 mix, and then top off the system with 6 more gallons of premix.

I have some things I am fortunate to have going for me. First, Knox County TN has convenience centers to bring all wastes, including anti-freeze, old oil, tires, etc. I have a lot of gallons of progressively less concentrated coolant to bring to the convenience centers. They don't charge so I have no fees associated with the drained coolant. (I save old 5 gallon pails from everything including oil, gear lube, and deck sealer to carry my old oil and anti-freeze to the convenience centers)

I also have a place to work that is easy for me to do this without spilling anything so I don't have to worry about my dogs or any animals being endangered by the old coolant with is poisonous to animals.

My cost apart from my time is going to be $270 or thereabouts and with any luck I will not have to do anything ()other than re-charge the coolant in 3 years), for the next 6 years.

I will do the same to the generator shortly so I only have to carry a gallon or two of the concentrate to deal with either cooling system.

[rfoster]

Damn, I thought I really did something when I changed my fuel filters this past weekend. And oil & oil filters. And power coolant can.

[travelite]

Jon,

Have you considered blowing the Webasto and chassis heater lines free of coolant using a regulated air supply? Also, after you're done it may be worthwhile to drain a sample and have it tested by CAT to be certain that the OAT is as prescribed. I understand that test strips are also now available.

[GDeen]

Between the remodel and this, you making me exhausted.....gunning to regain that A1 moniker are we??

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jon,

Have you considered blowing the Webasto and chassis heater lines free of coolant using a regulated air supply? Also, after you're done it may be worthwhile to drain a sample and have it tested by CAT to be certain that the OAT is as prescribed. I understand that test strips are also now available.

I considered a number of options but one impediment to clearing both the Webasto and OTR coolant lines is both have solenoid valves. If I broke the lines at the valves I may find myself with more problems when it comes to burping and filling the system. By the time I get through flushing the radiator, flushing that portion of the system, then re-opening the entire system and doing another flush or two I seriously doubt I will have enough of the Power Cool remaining to talk about.

I barely see a pink tinge to the drained water now so I think I will have almost no contamination.

Two of the short sections of hose I have to replace are in the supply and return line for the forward Webasto units so whether I want to or not those will be drained. I previously drained the system aggressively and I was burping it for several hundred miles. I am not looking forward to what it will take to do that again just for the forward Webastos. Getting lazy.

[travelite]

Jon,

I recently used one of these when changing the coolant on my genny:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?store=snapon-store&item_ID=66765&group_ID=12500

I haven't yet used it on the S-60, but on the genny it worked well. No spills, air pockets, or overheating. When I pulled the vacuum, I found that my radiator drain petcock was leaking a bit; if it doesn't hold a vacuum there's probably a leak somewhere. Once a good vacuum was created, I put the fill tube in a 5 gal bucket of premix and opened the fill valve. Really cool to watch the fluid being sucked into the coolant system. Very fast.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have one and I have used it quite a bit. I think my end result and plan will work well because I use the Webasto to do a lot of the purging as I have done in the past. Once the Webasto cirulating pump starts circulating coolant I just keep adding to the header as necessary. Then I run the engine until the thermostat opens. If I cannot get it hot enough on high idle I just back up my driveway twice. It is steep enough to put a big load on the engine.

It takes forever to pull a vaccum on the bus system.

[travelite]

Jon,

To warm up the engine so the thermostat opens, there's nothing wrong with applying the brakes, putting the transmission in Drive, and bringing the revs up to 800 to 1000 rpm. Have you ever seen Prevost Car do a stall test on a new transmission?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You haven't seen my driveway. Believe me. Two trips back up it and I'm done.

[travelite]

I once saw Prevost Car do a stall test on a newly installed Allison transmission. The tech applied the brakes, put it in drive, and ran the engine up against it's governor and held it there for what seemed like an eternity. The transmission grunting, the brakes holding it back, the engine screaming, quite a sight. :)

[mikedee]

Changed my coolant before summer, drained the radiator and use a light amount of compressed air to get an extra gallon or so out, filled it with fresh water and drove it 5 miles at low speed. Drained, blew out, and replaced the coolant with pre-mix, my water in Vegas is way to castic to make good coolant (PH of 8.1 at my house).

When I was an Iowa farm boy we did all the equipment this way, but instead of fresh water we used a mixture of water and a couple handfuls of Spic&Span. It worked well getting the crud out of the equipment.

I changed my coolant about four years ago and have put about 115,000 miles on the bus since then. The coolant looked good and has always tested fine on the strips.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The coolant change is done. I probably was a little more cautious but I figured if the coolant is good for 6 years I don't want to have to get into the cooling system again so I took extra pains with things I could have probably avoided. I changed two coolant hoses that had not been previously changed, rechecked the entire system for potential leaks and made the final steps to install the new extended life coolant.

I drained and flushed the old coolant four times total before using cooling system cleaner. I used Cat 4C-4611 which is a 90 minute fast acting cleaner. I installed 1 gallon in a 15 gallon capacity. I shut off all valves leading to the bus OTR and Webasto portions of the bus and isolated the engine and radiator, added the gallon and about 14 gallons of water for a 7% mix. The instructions call for 6 to 10%. I ran the bus for 90 minutes as instructed. The engine temp on high idle sat rock steady at 195 at the end of the 90 minutes.

When I drained the water and cleaner it was pretty black. I ended up draining it 4 more times, running the engine for a few minutes each time to circulate the water. At the end of the fourth flush it was almost perfectly clear. I then opened all the valves to the balance of the coach systems and refilled the coach cooling system with water one last time. I again ran the coach, the OTR and the Webasto and drained what I could out of the coach. I drained another 1/2 gallon in the morning and filled the coach with 12 gallons of EC-1 spec Caterpillar Extended Life Coolant. I added several gallons of water to top off the system, ran the Webasto until it shut off to burp the system and I will recheck the system tomorrow.

Bottom line, the bus cooling system has been cleaned, all hoses are within 2 years old or newer (except the engine hoses which appear bullet proof) the old coolant and cleaner were flushed out of the bus at least four times each and without any Herculean efforts my bus appears to drain a maximum of 17 gallons out of 24 if I let it drain for about a day. A quick drain yields about 15 gallons. I just don't want to open the system any more than I did to try to drain the balance and with the number of drain and refill cycles I doubt if there was anywhere enough old coolant to contaminate the new.

I did pull a vacuum on the system after I had about 5 to 6 gallons short of a full system, then again at about 2 gallons short of a full system and I think it is sufficiently burped. I will know when I drive it around the block (8.3 miles). Now cooling system maintenance will be an extender added in 3 years and a change in 6. No more conditioning filters to add SCAs. I will put a blank filter in the system when I get one, but for now I just shut off flow to the filter.

What I could not believe was how much draining and refilling was required before I could get the water drained from the bus to run clear. In fact it never did run perfectly clear, always having a barely discernable pink tinge. The dyes used in the coolants must be very strong. I also could not believe how black the water was when using cleaner. I had been changing coolant and conditioning filters on schedule yet despite that the cleaner I used loosened up a lot of black crud from the engine and radiator cooling system. The service techs at Caterpillar use Calgon dishwashing soap if the cooling system has been compromised with engine oil, but I see no evidence my system ever had engine oil in it.

[Gary Carmichael]

Jon, just walking up your drive is a challenge in it's self, not for the clogged artery crowd!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I avoid walking up it. On weak moments such as to get the Sunday paper I question my sanity when I get about 50 feet from the top. It sure is a good way to warm up an engine however.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I avoid walking up it. On weak moments such as to get the Sunday paper I question my sanity when I get about 50 feet from the top. It sure is a good way to warm up an engine however.

Maneuvering the steep drive!

[BrianE]

Once again Jon, thanks for sharing. I just checked "Quick Links" - Information Sharing and saw that you had written a cooling article ages ago in reference to changing coolant in an 8V-92 bus. Would it be too much trouble for you to add another information article using the info you've shared in this thread? Some of us have made the extended life coolant change but I must admit that when I did it I was not so meticulous. Nor did I document the process. By the way, you don't need to worry about losing the title of A-1, it's a well earned and appreciated moniker.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Brian,

I will look up the other article and see if I can re-write it. I hope everyone realizes I took short cuts in the respect I did not try to purge the entire system since I found difficulty in burping it when it starts from dry. I think I became overly sensitive to that because Lloyd and I had some conversations when he recently had his coolant removed and replaced and the shop that did the work replaced about 3 gallons less than they removed. The result was a ruined engine and a considerable amount of grief for Lloyd and Pam. I still remain in awe of despite having removed and replaced at least 15 gallons on the whole coach system five times and removed and replaced at least 15 gallons on the engine and radiator portion only four times that I could still see traces of pink in the water that was drained. I suspect even if I completely drained the system I would still have pink traces.

Thank goodness for Knox County TN and their convenience centers who glady receive the old coolant and diluted coolant from subsequent flushes.

I also saw some ways I could have done a better job of flushing other than just refilling, circulating and dumping. The petcock fitting on the bottom of the radiator lends itself to removal and replacement with a 90 degree ball valve with fittings for a hose so I could back flush.

I am not familiar with conversions other than a Liberty, but my Webasto system has petcocks at each heat exchanger that also lend themselves to using air to purge old coolant or to back flushing as well.

My point is I think each owner may choose to vary from what I did depending on how the conversion is set up and how they want to remove the old coolant and clean the radiator and engine, or the entire system.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I have found this Caterpillar PDF from 1999 and believe it to be important information answering many questions that have come up about the EC-1, ELC Extended Life Coolant.
I am surprised it was only discovered now after being in print for such a long time.

I suggest all read it as it addresses all the questions I can remember being asked about the EC-1 product compatabality, application, maintenance and more.

I think it should go to the Sticky or Articles location or both and do not have the ability to insert it there.

http://www.rvcruzer.com/docs/CatELC.pdf

JIM :)

[travelite]

Things have changed a lot since 1999 in the coolant world. We now have 2nd and 3rd generation OATs, extended life organic acid technology coolants. The first generation came on the scene in 1996 and used hexanoic acid as its organic acid base which attacked solder and silicon seals and gaskets,. The second generation uses other non-hexanoic organic acids and is NAP (Nitrite, Amines, Phosphate) free. The 3rd generation is a hybrid of organic and inorganic technologies, NOAT is an example - NOAT is an OAT containing a nitrite additive. I'm not an expert in this area and have been pretty much educated by a gentleman named Gary Spires, whom is an expert, you may have seen his posts on the various RV forums. IMPO, the only organic coolant to consider in our Series-60's is the type that doesn't attack solder, silicon hoses or gaskets. These are the non-hexanoic acid OATs, and there are three to choose from: Old World Industries (OWI) Final Charge, Shell Rotella Ultra ELC, and Fleetguard ES Compleat OAT. I believe Detroit approves of these three. These three are all OATs not hybrids. Detroit Diesel Power Cool Plus is made by OWI and is the same as Final Charge. You can read lots more here: http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10182 The good stuff starts on page four where Spike45, Gary Spires, chimes in.

[AmeriStar]

Shell Rotella Ultra ELC has been our shop's choice for several years. All Shell distributers handle this product. DD had some input in the development of this, so have piece of mind in using.