DASH CAM.....PARANOIA?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I suspect we experience the same insanity on the road as every other Prevost owner. So far we have avoided trouble but I fear the day will come when we will wish we had proof someone pulled in too close and spiked the brakes, or played with us as the fool did when returning from Kerrville.

So I am 90% sure I am going to install a dash cam. Research shows they range from simple cheap devices that just video what they are pointed at, to sophisticated devices that display forward views, interior views, and are GPS equipped so in playback they not only show the two views, but your exact location on a Google map along with your speed. They record sudden events such as hard braking.

We have come close to hitting people in the rear when it appeared they intentionally (or stupidly) cut in too close and then slowed suddenly. I guess we want a record of what really happened if we are involved in a situation that is not of our own making.

What say you? Are we paranoid? Is $60 to $290 too big of an investment for something that might protect us?

[Charles Spera]

Jon,
Although the idea of having a record it desirable, when do you turn the dash-cam on to ensure it?

[Coloradobus]

No
We have talked about doing that very thing. There have been several incidents when either of us have been at the wheel, where we about "Ate" a stupid motorist!

[merle&louise]

Jon,

How much storage does the camera have? Louise and I sometimes will drive 9 or more hours in a day.

I am sure that the video camera is digital - does it start over automatically or do you have to reset it when the storage card is full?

As far as the price, I would say that it is cheap insurance if it proves that someone caused you to rear-end them intentionally. You could save a bunch in attorney's fees for sure!

My advice would be, "If it makes you happy, buy it!"

[Alek&Lucia]

In case somebody did not see, here is a copy of my post from last month about few dash cameras:

Here is one link:

http://thevideocopilot.com/

model VC-100 looks interesting

or this one:

http://www.spytechs.com/spy_cameras/...FVB95QodW0T9LA

one more:

http://www.spytechs.com/Car-Cameras/dual-view-cam.htm

Model SCI-DR200

Alek

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The cam would come on as soon as we moved and would remain on. Depending on the memory it would record XXX hours and then start recording over earlier video. All I would care about is the last few minutes, including the accident or incident. Most have a memory stick.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jon, I think your idea is very sound.

A digital recording of what is happening in front of you while driving down the highway could be priceless. JUST look at the number of Police cruiser tape videos that have been put to good use these days.

Keep us informed of what you find out there as I am very interested in this too.

Thanks

Gary S.

[rfoster]

Get the one that is sheep activated after dark.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Alek beat me to it with his links. They are places I have been looking and right now I am leaning toward the GPS equipped cams because they are date and time stamped, show locations and speed and are likely to hold up well under scrutiny from an opposing attorney.

I think it is sad we even have to think along these lines, but in the 20 years we have been driving we now see truckers driving as stupidly as the car drivers. BTW I get a sense a lot of commercial vehicles are being equipped with these dash cams, likely for the same reason as I am considering one.

I like this one: http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/voyager-car-camera-gps-logger.html

[HarborBus]

I think it's a good idea, it's cheap insurance that you only have to pay for once. It is a daily occurrence where someone will squeeze into my "safe following distance" space in front of us while going through a town making it necessary to brake to regain that space, but it is that few seconds between when they close the gap and I regain the separation that I am vulnerable. I have always thought I would be arguing until I'm blue in the face trying to convince a judge that it was just seconds before that the other driver closed the gap because ofcourse the other driver would insist he had been there for many minutes or for that matter all along. So you see it doesn't have to be a vindictive idiot with some axe to grind, it just has to be someone (of which there are many) who doesn't understand the space necessary for us to stop 50000 lbs. It's a good idea, if there's enough interest maybe we could get a volume discount.

[Orren Zook]

Several of the truck fleets around here use a camera system that records the video front view, left side, right side, rear and interior of the cab, plus speed and a multitude of driver reactions - such as brake application, rpm, etc. in real time. Conversations with principles indicate that recording devices are necessary for protection in liability cases - peace of mind and to help keep insurance cost down.

[rahangman]

Several years ago, after the Ricky Gates incidence (Railroad locomotive sideswiping a Passenger train) the FRA mandated "Black Box" recorders in all locomotives. They have evolved into systems not too different than the Airlines Black Box. Along with all kinds of recording of engine/operator techniques and performance, I should think they could also incorporate a video readout also. Now most Railroad Locomotives purchased have a video recorder system as part of their standard equipment, and the RR's are all installing after market units as after market devices. Good idea, best if able to incorporate into existing equipment if affordable or available.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ordered today.

http://www.amazon.com/Dash-Dual-Camera-Mini-System/dp/B002XXHPIC/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1289598885&sr=1-2

This one was a little pricey, but it has the GPS feature so my speeds and locations are recorded. I hope I never have to prove its value.

[Will Garner]

As previously posted, I have a pet peeve about Highway - Rail Grade Crossing crashes. Some time ago AMTRAK apparently has equipped their locomotives with video cameras as well. One crash in SC the train based video showed a Cadillac with several baggy britches type in it passing a stopped vehicle at the crossing, the gates down and finally the right front passenger about to take a hit on their chin. I think the body count was four in the Cadillac and zero on the train. Remember, at all Highway - Rail Grade Crossings, if it is a tie YOU lose!

One here in NC this year showed a Mother, on her cell phone, driving around the down gates and being hit on the passenger side rear door of her SUV. Her child in the rear seat was killed instantly. The local buzz was the gates weren't working, the train company had been called multiple times and had not responded to the calls. This went on for about three days, until the video was obtained and broadcast by local media outlets. Suddenly the business community in Mebane had nothing to say anymore.

Some people will never get the message they are not a multi-tasking computer, that they are in a dynamic and changing environment where 100% concentration is required for the safety of persons in their vehicle as well as those operating around them. No one ever mentions how the locomotive engineer, who can do nothing more than throw the train into emergency braking and hold on until the crash - hoping he does not get derailed. How sad and stupid can one get than to drive carelessly when approaching and crossing railroad tracks.

[Alan__]

Jon - This could be priceless footage as I see it takes the inside also. I can't wait to see the facial expressions on Lady Di as various idiots cut in front of you. Her stories are hilarious of the many previous episodes. Be sure to have plenty of digital storage so you don't over write some of the close calls!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have to be sure the sound is turned down. Lady Di has used some expressions that are not suitable for public consumption.

The facial expressions will not necessarily be as interesting as the hand signals.

[Don]

It is not only Teenagers, truck drivers, little old ladies, mature men that will pull directly in front of you.
2 + years ago, March 2008 to be exact I was traveling around the Capital Beltway approaching the Baltimore Washington parkway in Prince George County Maryland on my way to Florida.

I noticed a County cop in a marked car following me for several miles; suddenly he was almost rubbing my coach as he was passing me at a high rate of speed. If that was not enough he abruptly dove in front of me and slammed on his brakes. Fortunately I had applied my brakes as soon as I had observed him passing me so close, which helped me avoid the jerk cop.

He then tried his best to make me hit him by slamming on his brakes again and again I had slowed down to I guess 10 to 20 MPH when he sped off. Did I get his License # or car # h— no I was to shaken up emotionally to do any thing but thank God I was OK besides can you imagine telling the PG County or a Judge that one of their FINEST had done such a thing. As far as insurance is concerned hitting a cop I would have lost.

I am looking to install something to document things of this nature. To show his commissioner
Then again he probably was the commissioner. Knowing PG County

[gmcbuffalo]

Anyone made a move on these Dash Cams?
Greg

[Will Garner]

How about a sign, everybody thinks one of those will solve their problems, posted on the drivers side engine bay door. The sign would say, "Drive Safely, CAMERA EQUIPPED VEHICLE." Maybe even a very large sign so we cover those "very experienced" drivers out there!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Maybe something as esthetically pleasing as the signs that say "this vehicle makes wide right turns"?

I would confess to being opposed to signage which in a lot of cases implies the reader is a damn idiot lacking common sense. Is there anyone who has an IQ at or above room temperature that is not aware the bridge freezes before the road surface? Thank goodness the sign on the semi said it makes wide right turns. I didn't know that. I assume by the silence on the subject that its left turns are not so wide.

Do smokers need to be told that smoking is bad? Or that sleeping pills can make you drowsy?

Now I am beginning to see signs to warn drivers not to pull in too close after passing. As a nation we are apparently so stupid we have to be told the obvious. It is my opinion that the idiots that will be caught on tape on a dash cam causing an accident don't need to be told because if they lack the brains or common sense to drive properly having a sign warning them won't change their behavior.

Di wants me to install a large cannon on the front of the coach to blast these fools off our highway. I might be persuaded to put a sign on the back of the bus to warn the fools about that. If we blast some fool for pulling in too close and then hitting the brakes at least we know they will have been warned. My only hope is that these people will not have had an opportunity to breed before we blast them.

[michaeldterry]

Di wants me to install a large cannon on the front of the coach to blast these fools off our highway. I might be persuaded to put a sign on the back of the bus to warn the fools about that. If we blast some fool for pulling in too close and then hitting the brakes at least we know they will have been warned. My only hope is that these people will not have had an opportunity to breed before we blast them.

I agree with Jon - with all the warning labels/signs for things that have been previously painfully obvious (no doubt brought on by the increasing trend toward litigation instead of personal responsibility for one's own actions/stupidity), I'm led to believe that no sign would overcome the poor judgment of someone hell bent on demonstrating their stupidity. However, I must admit that I'm loving Di's idea of a grill mounted cannon to blast the SOB's to kingdom come! Now, that's an aftermarket upgrade I'd definitely buy!

[garyde]

I hope you will agree some signs are necessary and important, like our POG sticker , or 'do not pick up hitch hikers, Prison Ahead'. How about the one in Nevada 'Alien abduction zone'. When you live in California you get used to all kinds of signs since everyone has at least two bumper stickers and the legislature makes up new regulations on a daily basis for new rules of behavior.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jon, you seem a little testy this moriing ? Get up on the wrong side of the creek this morning?

I thought you already bought a camera for inside the bus? Did it not work like you hoped?

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I always get a little grumpy when dealing with stupidity and the American public is either very stupid, or the lawmakers who insist on those signs think we are. And if as I suspect lawyers had some influence on the signage because their client lacked common sense then my grumpiness goes up a notch. I mean, really, do we need to be told the bridge freezes first? At this point I'm prepared to have all signs removed and will consider the resultant rash of fatalities survival of the fittest.

As to the camera, its back for repair or replacement. As instructed I tested it before I routed the wiring and it worked as advertised. Then I spent hours routing wiring and changing the power outlet because I was getting too many devices for the one I had. When I plugged in the camera after everything was done it didn't work. So I tested the power and it was good, right to the camera so I let Amazon know I had a problem. That night the owner of the company (Stunt Cams) called, we discussed it and without hesitation said send it back. I'm awaiting my new camera. Shouldn't have quit working, but pleased with the fast personal response.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon did you get one that records the interior also, I wonder how important that is?
Greg

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Yes it records the interior. Maybe if and when I hit someone in the rear because they pulled in too close and took away my stopping distance it will record me in full panic mode trying to get stopped while recording Di talking to them with sign language.

I don't car about the interior views but it comes with it. I did want the GPS and Google Maps feature because it pin points time, place and my speed.

[gmcbuffalo]

Thanks
Greg

[Devin W]

Wow - look what this guy caught with his dash cam (sorry for the short ad):

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[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, you've gotten a few trips under your belt since the install, how's the "CAM" working out?

JIM :confused:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The original dash cam failed to function as advertised so Amazon refunded every penny, including shipping. I then bought a different dash cam that did not have the GPS function, or the ability to record the interior.

As it turns out I like the second current dash cam better. I give up the GPS feature, but at any time I can push a button and see exactly what is being currently recorded. This feature was not on other dash cams. It records any time I have power to my GPS and my Tattle Trail since all three are on the same 12VDC circuit and I have a dash switch for that circuit. When power is off the cam still records for 15 minutes so I could have a functioning camera even if I turned off power. I have it set up to constantly overwrite old video which would be an hour old. If I wanted to absolutely preserve something all I have to do is pull out the little card.

I hope I never have to make use of the dash cam. But as long as I have it is nice to see the green light tell me it is recording and the flashing red light to tell me it is powered up. And anytime I can display the current video or actually see the previous history in 15 minute blocks. Even though it does not have a time stamp or speed record function if it ever had to be used to offer that information it would be easy for anyone to time the distance between mile markers to determine my 62.5 mph speed.

If you are interested in installing a dash cam just do a search. I realized in the short 2 or 3 months I struggled with the original one that the number and types of dash cams changed dramatically so I presume electronic devices such as the dash cam are changed almost daily. Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they really aren't out to get me.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Thanks for the comments and update on your install.

JIM :)

[merle&louise]

I would like to pose a question for discussion: Why do other driver's cut you off by swerving in front of you?

Are they jealous of the shiney bus and the "obviously wealthy guy" inside?

Are they just aggravated because you are driving slower than they are?

I have been shot the "bird" for trying to merge onto an interstate hiway! I mean really; I had my blinker on, and accelerator to the floor to try to merge with hiway traffic.

Also have been flipped off when making a right hand turn and I cross over into the other lane (just a little) because the road was not wide enough to make the turn.

I would just like to know if anyone else has had these situations arise.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, were you able to mount your "CAM" to get the right and left mirror views as well as the front?

JIM :confused:

[Seabyrd]

AMEN to what Jon said !!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I would like to pose a question for discussion: Why do other driver's cut you off by swerving in front of you?

Are they jealous of the shiney bus and the "obviously wealthy guy" inside?

Are they just aggravated because you are driving slower than they are?

I have been shot the "bird" for trying to merge onto an interstate hiway! I mean really; I had my blinker on, and accelerator to the floor to try to merge with hiway traffic.

Also have been flipped off when making a right hand turn and I cross over into the other lane (just a little) because the road was not wide enough to make the turn.

I would just like to know if anyone else has had these situations arise.

Tuga has nailed it. In order from our perspective here are the things that make a dash cam important to us.

The driver who passes us on a three lane interstate and then cuts in too close only to cross the slow lane and get off at the exit. He cannot possibly see if someone is passing us on the right. The worst violator of that so far is a UPS double. A variation is the driver who passes, pulls in too close and then hits the brakes.

Next in line for things that irritate us are the folks who don't know how to merge. Especially bad ar the ones that pace us as we travel in the slow lane and get pissed off when we don't move over. They could car less if the car next to us in the fast lane prevented us from moving over. Those idiots who don't know how to merge have given us the finger or pulled in front and spiked the brakes on purpose.

Then there are the people who see our need to change lanes, who see our turn signal, and who speed up to close the opening we needed to make a lane change. The statute of limitations has run out so I can confess to running a driver into the median when he purposely accelerated to fill the space we needed and then paced us so we were stuck. I was tired, it was a long day and he just really pissed me off. I have been a good boy since then.

I can go on, but I doubt if I am telling anyone something new.

[Coloradobus]

I hate those that pace you in the dark. They see ahead that we would have the need to move left, and sit either next to coach or the towed, blocking us from changing lanes. So, with the last coach that had cornering lights, I would hit the blinker to activate them and illuminate their vehicle. That seems to make them react to get moving. Our current coach, has separte buttons on the overhead for the docking lights, and too far for the driver to reach. Don't have the luxury of side flashing a car now.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Since you can't make mean people nice, those drivers that go out of their way to impede you from changing lanes will not respond to a bright light from the cornering lights. The problem today is we don't know if people are being mean, or if their brain has taken a break while they yak on the phone. I used to fret about the person who was daydreaming and tailgating a few feet from the toad. But a trucker taught me that when someone does that, just put on the turn signal. It works. Someone that has been in your camera for miles will change lanes and pass. I have done it numerous times now and it works every time.

[AmeriStar]

I know we are all expert drivers, but within the last 6 months there have been 2 serious bus accident law suits that have been decided by 'drive cam' evidence. In both instances the professional drivers of the buses were killed and the dash cam video was the deciding factor in the civil cases filed by the surviving passengers, bankrupting both of the companies involved.
My point is simply, this can be a double edge sword. My company does not employ the dash cam, rather we choose to educate and test our drivers skills on an ongoing basis. Dash cam evidence can be very ugly, and usually can be mannipulated to show how unprepared an average coach driver really is in an emergency situation.
I would think twice before mounting this in a personal vehicle.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Kevin,

If I were in your position I would adopt the same policy. The deciding factor that led me to install the dash cam was an incident with a driver in Cookeville, TN who got pissed because I did not move over or hit the brakes when he was entering the interstate. Traffic alongside of me and behind me did not allow me to make room for him, but he got pissed and pulled in front of me and proceeded to spike his brakes, bringing our speed down to about 35 while traffic had been moving in the 60 to 65 mph range. When we called 911 and then the TN Highway Patrol after we got home it was apparent they could care less. Had we rear ended the guy we would have been at fault. Had we been rear ended we would have been at fault for not maintaining the minimum speed. There had been other instances where drivers cut in too close or hit the brakes intentionally so I opted to record what was happening.

I understand how the data from the dash cam can work against any one of us. But having 50 plus accident free years, and zero moving violations I suspect I am a little more cautious than the average driver so I am prepared for the risk. Further, if I do get involved in an accident that is my fault you can be pretty confident I am not going to volunteer the presence of a camera that will prove my guilt. But should a car load of professional accident victims choose to stop unexpectedly in front of me after pulling in too close, or if another wacko wants to play games on an interstate I feel pretty good about being able to present a video of the incident.

Whether we like it or not in our current production vehicles data is already being recorded and in some cases has been part of an investigation. The good news is so few personal vehicles have a dash cam nobody is going to be looking for me to produce the data from one, and my bus is too old to have the data recording devices now on vahicles. The bus accidents that have recently garnered a lot of media attention both involved drivers who were clearly at fault and who should be punished along with the companies that employed them. The H3 that was split open down near NYC had to have been speeding at a high rate in order to run along a guard rail for 300 feet, lay over on its side and then with sufficient energy still remaining slide into a sign pole and have that pole tear thru the bus from the windshield all the way back to the engine. The second accident had a driver that fell asleep. From my perspective it is hard to not want a dash cam in those buses to prove the drivers were at fault.

[LA-HODAG]

Anyone who drives a 20+ ton vehicle should be well insured against liability for causing damage or injury, because even a minor mishap or mistake can have bad consequences when it involves such a big hunk of steel. This applies especially to Poggers, who are not pro drivers, have sufficient incomes to afford a very expensive toy, and presumably have other assets to protect. As most on this site already know, an umbrella policy to bring your liability coverage up to $2 million will probably cost just a little more than a tank of fuel and a $10 million umbrella will likely cost less than your annual bus maintenance. I say buy the insurance, drive safely, and don't worry about the lawyers, regardless of whether you choose to install a dash cam.

[Yankee802]

I am about to order the dash cam Jon showed in his first link, the BrickHouse View-I™ Dual Car Camera. (http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/voyager-car-camera-gps-logger.html) I like the idea of CYA.

With respect to the previous post, I agree for the most part. I would like to point out however, that not everyone here has their Prevost as a toy, nor is everyone here loaded. Of course that makes it even MORE important to have adequate insurance, and I would once again like to thank Skiffer and POG for helping me get covered by National Interstate! :)

[LA-HODAG]

Yankee, I was talking about the investments that many Poggers have plainly made in their awesome coaches which make me both me and my 21 year old bus jealous. Did not mean anything derrogatory by the 'toy' remark. In fact, I bet that most POG owners use their bus for business. After many years I still get a big grin every time I drive mine, which is why I think of it as a big toy.
Bryan

[Yankee802]

Bryan, no offense taken at all. I know what you mean, some of those newer coaches are very nice. Honestly though, I LOVE my older coach, it's simple and simply beautiful to me. If we didn't live fulltime, I'd consider her my toy as well, but she is so much more to me, and brings me joy to drive her as well, when I get the chance.

[garyde]

I have to say, having been on the recieving end while driving my Bus has made me a more careful and considerate driver. Not all the time but enough to understand.
I also am not always the best bus driver as well but I make the effort. When I am driving the Bus I have to remind my self I'm not in my truck or sports car, so I don't have the same accelleration, stopping ability, and manuvering. I can't hide in traffic. I stick out.
One mistake and everyone around me will be thinking, ' another 80 year A--hole, there should be a law.'
So, you can't be right , no matter what you do , therefore you have to be overly cautious.
Driving a shiny bus kind of makes you an easy target.

[rfoster]

Gary D you are so right. It is like someone painted a Bullseye on your butt.

[Abaco]

Jon- Which camera did you buy ? I'll save myself the shopping and just get the one you got. Was it the first one you posted from Brickhouse or another ?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have to dig up the info. The first one was a dud. It did not work, and then the software wasn't available so I got my money back and went with a cheaper, simpler one. I just got thru driving 653 miles so I am about to have an adult beverage and collapse for the night. My day started at 2:00 AM.

[Coloradobus]

Havent bought the dash-cam yet. In response to LA and Yankee. We have had a 2001, 2002, a 2000 model year 45ft coaches in that order, but we are thoroughly enjoying our 1992 Bus. Its quicker, and as a 40 footer, its nimble and with the solid front axle no abnormal steer tire wear, Yeh! "-)))), and it easy to fix-no computer. And,,, we have room in the garage ahead and more importantly behind the coach for STUFF.

[gmcbuffalo]

Jon
I know you don't drive at night but how well do these cameras work for night driving? Anyone know?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Define night Greg........As every ball breaker in POG knows my day of driving may start at 2 or 3 AM. Even if details visible in daylight are not caught by the camera when it is dark out, the camera does pick up lights. The biggest factor that motivated me to stick a camera on the dash was the idiot that just had to pull in front of me, about 15 feet from my front bumper and then for whatever reason chose to spike the brakes. I am sure the camera will record not only his tail lights, but because of my headlights the car I am about to run over will also show.

I guess I will have to play back a section of the data recorded in the dark to see how much detail it shows.

[gmcbuffalo]

I was thinking that the dash lights reflecting off the windshield would cause poor to no video.