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aggies09
11-07-2010, 10:52 PM
The Conder family and several friends spent a most enjoyable weekend at College Station, TX with Loc McNew and family and friends, as well as Gordon and Jenny Deen, tailgating and watching the Fightin' Texas Aggies (Whoop!) of Texas A&M University beat up on a lesser known team from Norman, OK. Fun was had by all, although a little less by Gordon.

We departed mid morning headed back to home base in Abilene, TX and all was going exceptionally well on a beautiful fall morning when the Yellow engine warning light came on followed immediately by the Red stop engine light and then followed immediately by loss of power and engine shut down. Now this series of events has the possibility of really ruining your day.

After checking all of the gauges to make sure I hadn't missed something, I began checking all of the things that you would immediately think of a) Is it low on coolant.....b) Is there adequate oil and no contamination from diesel, etc. c.) Can I see anything that has come unplugged or a ground that has come loose. ....d) Maybe something electrical has tripped out that has caused me to stop......

None of those were the case. All looked good. So I first called and received some thoughts and advice from my buddy Loc, who was under the weather a bit, but still tried to help me. (Thanks). That left me searching, so I called our resident expert, Jon Wehrenberg, who gave some assurances that there were really only about three things that could shut us down. Coolant/temperature sensor, oil pressure sensor, and I believe oil temperature sensor, so I began chasing down those items. Thanks Jon for the assistance.

After trying the coolant sensor and having no luck, and not being real sure where the other sensors were located, I called the Prevost emergency road service number and they began walking me through a process of elimination. The process began with disconnecting the sensor at the coolant reservoir and then removing the oil pressure sensor connection below the intake manifold on the passenger side of the engine. When disconnected that will allow you to continue driving, but you must rely solely on your manual gauges to insure that you have correct oil pressure. This is what I did and it allowed me to get home safely today and begin the necessary repairs later this week.

Now the important thing about all of this is that I learned how to flash DDEC codes without a reader. As you may recall, I posted a question in early September, and asked if anyone knew how to flash the codes, but received no responses, so I am going to detail that in this thread for future reference by other POGers in need.

A. Turn the ignition key to the start position, but do not start the coach.
B. Immediately to the right of the ignition key is the red engine override switch. Press it once and release.
C. This will begin the DDEC diagnostic. A code is interpreted by a series of flashes. The red stop engine light will show you active codes. The yellow check engine light will show you historical codes. All codes have two digits. So, after you follow the steps above you see the red light flash two times quickly followed by a brief pause and the five quick flashes again that would be equal to code 25. The diagnostic tool will progress through all active codes (red) first and then show all historical codes (yellow). This can be very valuable at helping to narrow the possibilities of what is going on when you are stranded.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I thought this was very valuable information if you don't have a DDEC reader. I hope these instructions are clear enough to understand for most. If you can make them clearer, please feel free to add your input.

Jon Wehrenberg
11-08-2010, 08:38 AM
Don't apologize for the length of the post Tony. I hope everyone understands the value of the post. This is one of the nuggets of knowledge that can save the day for an owner who ends up along side the road.

I wondered how you got it going with a bad sensor and that tip alone about disconnecting it has been worth my dues for POG.

The second tip on reading codes without a reader will also pay huge dividends to owners who get a check engine or stop engine light.

Just so all understand there are only three codes that will initiate an engine stop light on our coaches. They are low coolant level, low oil pressure, and high coolant temperature. Every one is serious if a real issue, but if the gauges indicate everything is good and the problem is a sensor as Tony tells us we can disable the sensor and be on our way.

Good post Tony.

dreamchasers
11-08-2010, 08:54 AM
Great Info! Thanks for posting.

Hector

JIM CHALOUPKA
11-08-2010, 11:22 AM
Good job Tony, glad you got home safely.

JIM

Ray Davis
11-08-2010, 02:06 PM
I know I've seen them before, but it would be a good thing to locate and post the primary codes here in this thread. Perhaps even better (if it's not already there), we should have this procedure and the codes posted in the articles section.

So Tony, I guess your DDEC code came up for low oil pressure?

Ray

aggies09
11-08-2010, 08:57 PM
Ray you are correct. The code 25 is low oil pressure according to the Prevost service tech. There were four other codes that flashed that were not active but were historical. I am in complete agreement that there should be a list of codes attached to this thread for future reference. This event was not necessarily a fun way to learn about your bus, but I have to admit I have a better understanding of my sensors and how they operate than I did before.

Pete
11-08-2010, 10:56 PM
Tony, good post! I also wish the codes could be posted, so we could print them for future reference. Also the numbers to call at Prevost to get help.

hobobimmer
11-09-2010, 07:52 AM
The codes are listed in the spiral bound prevost manual that is usually part of the books one receives when he/she buys a coach. If not the small spiral, it is one of the small books. In our previous bus we had an issue and identified it easily. It turned out to be a failed sensor, but at least we narrowed it down. If we were able to find the codes, they must be pretty easy to find. If no one can find them, I can copy and post, if it is like posting a picture.

Jon Wehrenberg
11-09-2010, 08:35 AM
I know I have a copy somewhere in my maintenance books. I just need to find it and scan it for inclusion in the information sharing or articles section. Everyone should have a copy available at the driver's seat.

Remember a check engine light means DDEC has an issue, but it is OK to keep driving. The problem just needs to be checked. (Maybe that is why it is called CHECK engine.)

A stop engine light means just that. You need to stop the engine and if you do not DDEC will do it for you.

You can override the stop engine command, but be aware that if the problem is real, and not a bad sensor your over riding may be damaging or destroying the engine. The best and only way to keep yourself out of trouble and your coach healthy is to constantly include your engine gauges in your scan and to react to changes, especially coolant temperature and oil pressure, before they exceed their limits and cause DDEC to light the stop engine light.

The low coolant sensor has been the biggest problem based on posts about it over the years, but it is the early warning that a hose has failed or there is a coolant leak. Our engines, under high power situations, generate a tremendous amount of heat and the loss of coolant can turn a perfectly good engine into scrap metal in a very short period of time which is why that is one of the three reasons for a stop engine light.

AmeriStar
11-09-2010, 11:12 AM
Here is a handy downloadable DDEC Fault Code list. Our coach manuals included a factory Detroit Diesel 60 series manual. This manual is very handy in determining the factory specs. regarding service and operational tolerances.
http://library.motoralldata.com/techRef/WebHelp/Powertrain_Trouble_Code_Charts/Detroit_Diesel/Detroit_Diesel_Electronic_Controls_(DDEC_III).htm

gmcbuffalo
11-09-2010, 12:13 PM
Are these codes universal for 60 Series and V8's?

merle&louise
11-09-2010, 02:52 PM
Back in October of 2008 I purchased spare sensors that could shut down my series 60. I keep them just in case a sensor goes out on the engine in the middle of nowhere.

Hope these part numbers can help anyone who wants to keep some spares on board.

Oil Pressure sensor DD # 23532797 $66.08
Air,Oil,Fuel sensor DD # 23518092 $59.46
Coolant Temp sensor DD # 23515251 $32.09
Synchronous Reference Sensor 08929387 $71.81
Timing Reference Sensor 08929388 $52.50

MangoMike
11-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Ameristar

Great first post. You've set the bar high.

Mango Mike

Kevin Erion
11-09-2010, 07:26 PM
I see that the heading is for DDEC III, what about DDEC IV, are they the same?

AmeriStar
11-09-2010, 09:40 PM
Thanks Mike,
10 years in the bus business... I must have learned something.

I'm enjoying reading the q and a's from this great group.

AmeriStar
11-09-2010, 09:47 PM
To my knowledge, the III and the IV have the same flash fault codes. The IV has a few more bells and whistles with regard to engine operation.
The best advice is when you have an issue with a check engine light and fault codes, have a tech plug a computer diagnostic system. This will provide a complete history of what and when things have happened since the last "clearing of codes".
This is also a useful tool to check various things like total mileage, injector timing just to name a few.

AmeriStar
11-09-2010, 09:51 PM
Are these codes universal for 60 Series and V8's?

Probably not. The early DDEC I system ere prone to many problems and proved to be part of the cause and not the cure.

truk4u
11-09-2010, 10:08 PM
Here's a link to the DDEC II codes for the 8V that I used with my Pro Link:

http://library.motoralldata.com/techRef/WebHelp/Powertrain_Trouble_Code_Charts/Detroit_Diesel/Detroit_Diesel_Electronic_Controls_(DDEC_II).htm