Extended Coolant Alternative - Real or Snake Oil

[truk4u]

This company claims an alternative to ELC without draining or replacing your coolant and meets EC-1. It appears you just add this Final Charge, change out your coolant filter to a blank and your good to go 6 years or 600,000 miles.

Any words of wisdom from the brain trust?

http://www.finalcharge.com/converter.html

PS - A lot of folks on another forum have been using this for some time.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You know this is coming......is there any documentation to show Detroit Diesel has approved this? Conceptually I like what they claim. But I am not prepared to risk an engine.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Just to clarify my previous remarks, look at the page that shows testing http://www.finalcharge.com/fleet_tested.html and note very carefully that it does not say it was approved by DD. The key is in the wording.

If I read it right it says they ran an engine 600,000 miles and no signs of cavitation, but nowhere does it say any manufacturer has specifically approved or endorsed the use of the product.

The cynic that I am would say that since I chew gum and never had my tonsils out that gum chewing prevents tonsilitis. That's a parallel to their claims. I want to see specific proof that Detroit Diesel approves the use of the product for extending the life of the coolant.

[Orren Zook]

Right on Jon - I'd be curious to see the Detroit Diesel liner cavitation reports on the extended service interval quoted.

[gmcbuffalo]

Maybe they are found out what the secret additive is to the ELC coolant and are just selling that, the rest is coloring and water.
Greg

[johnklopp]

SNAKE OIL... Water alone is one of the best heat transfer agents available. However water alone will not prevent freezing below 32 degrees F or boiling at 212 degrees F assuming sea level pressures and will not lubricate seals, prevent corrosion and cavitation.

Modern heat transfer fluids almost without exception are water based and have a variety of additives selected based on the temperatures, type of block, hoses, gaskets etc. Engine manufacturers spend millions on selecting the right combinations to determine the maximum recommended life of a component or systems. To simply remove or change the formulation based on unsubstantiated information would be foolish even if the new stuff was free.

John

[gmcbuffalo]

Do you think the engine manufacturers are engineering coolant or are they making engines that accept the available coolant already out there?
Greg

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is solely a guess, but I suspect the engine manufacturers design their engines to meet the demands of the market place and the certification standards such as the EPA requirements. If the engine requires fluids with certain qualities they then seek companies that can develop or supply those fluids.

All of these inter-related products (engines, oil, coolant, etc) are always evolving. Way back when engines used straight weight oils, then multi-viscosity oils, and now complex formulations of multi-weight oils with additives to serve many purposes. I suspect as the engine is being developed the engineers designing the engine are working closely with the engineers that develop the fluids.

Look at how many cars today are requiring synthetic 5W30 oils. Not too many years ago it was unheard of to use viscosities lower than 30 weight, and then only in the winter months. Like oils coolants are getting complex with manufacturers such as GM having very specific requirements for their coolants.

The only exception is the government, such as California that demands gasoline meet specific standards requiring engines to be designed to operate on fuels which meet those standards. A parallel is the low sulphur fuels we now have to use in engines that were not designed to use those fuels.

[truk4u]

Well boy's, I think there is more to this Final Charge product. It is on a DD approved list right along with Chevron Texaco ELC and many others.

http://extranet.detroitdiesel.com/Support/On-Highway/Manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/Power_Guard_Oils/index4print_93K217.asp

I don't care one way or the other, but it appears there is a much better cost alternative to dumping your non ELC coolant for a complete coolant change.

John Klopp - If it's snake oil, please explain how you dispute the above DD approved list. The inhibitor technology (OAT) is the same as Texaco ELC.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Oh Sagatious one..........I see the coolant that Old World sells but not a single listing for the converter.

My aged eyes may not work properly. Splain to me where the converter is listed. I'm all for saving a few bucks and have been known to install Chinese tires to do so, but the magic converter stuff is not listed as DD approved.

[johnklopp]

Tom,

My comment was specific, "To simply remove or change the formulation based on unsubstantiated information would be foolish even if the new stuff was free." I stand behind that concept but concede to your post if the manufacturer and the formulation have actualy been approved by DD.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Look closely at the list of approvals and nowhere is the material that converts Power Cool or equivalent listed as approved. Look at the Old World web site and their claims and the reading of those claims also avoids saying DD has approved the converter.

Going further, the DD listing has a disclaimer and my old eyes can read that fine print and it makes it clear even if stuff is on the list it may not be approved by DD because they place the entire burden on the other suppliers.

I would much rather pour in some magic converter to avoid doing a flush and change to EC-1 spec coolant, but unless I missed something I have not got the guts to try the shortcut. If it seems to good to be true, it is likely it is.

[truk4u]

But, oh great skeptic from eastern TN, the disclaimer from DD applies to ALL other brands except DD's. So you are telling me you wouldn't use Exxon, Texaco, Chevron, etc. because of the disclaimer! Further, Final Charge does not convert Power Cool, but converts regular ole green stuff, if I'm reading all this correctly.

I will then assume that you only use DD stuff and your wallet is less fat!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Non, now Trukster.

I recognize what Detroit is doing and their blatant attempts to sell Power Cool. My point is the magical elixar that converts Power Cool into extended life is nowhere to be found. Stick with the topic or we have to take away your moderator card.

As to whether Texaco or Chevron or others make an acceptable product, you can bet your Country Coach that they do make a product that meets the Detroit spec. But when I make the switch to EC-1, I will go to Caterpillar and pay serious money to get the real deal because the few bucks extra I will spend on coolant is chump change compared to the loss of an engine. And I do use the Power Cool (up to this point) for the same reason. Saving a few bucks a gallon just doesn't make sense when the consequences of making the wrong choice are so serious.

[gmcbuffalo]

Can we interupt that document to mean that Old World makes Power Cool and Power Cool Plus for DD. Otherwise how could they sell a product with the same name?
Greg

[Gary Carmichael]

Guys, Are we supposed to flush and change coolant every 3 years? I wonder if the guys at Liberty did this when I bought the coach? guess I will call Troy and ask. Is this to prevent breakdown of additives in coolant? Well I will check the fluid to see how it's holding up! Gary

[truk4u]

That's the claim I see on other websites Greg, they appear to be one in the same and have been around for some time. They probably do private label for DD.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Guys, Are we supposed to flush and change coolant every 3 years? I wonder if the guys at Liberty did this when I bought the coach? guess I will call Troy and ask. Is this to prevent breakdown of additives in coolant? Well I will check the fluid to see how it's holding up! Gary

According to the maintenance schedule coolant changes are required every 2 years.

That's why I am going with EC-1. A coolant change is a tedius task.

[HarborBus]

Jon you were supposed to have changed to EC-1 in August..............................what happened?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We decided to gut the living room of the coach, reupholster the sofas and put down a new floor which involved moving the Webasto heat exchangers. I didn't want to go through the effort to change coolant, and then have to repeat the draining and refilling all over again after the Kerrville rally because of my refurbishment project.